Other than How do I get a record deal? or How can I License my music? the question that comes up the most is How do I make it in the music industry?”
“Making it” to me just means making a living playing, writing and recording music.
Top 5 Behaviors that will help you make it in [...]
Steven Masur is an entertainment and technology lawyer by way of being a drummer in several rock bands and a lawyer in the cable and TV industries. He currently has his own firm called Masur Law based in New York and his clientele range from musicians to mobile companies to Media based technology firms. I wanted to speak with him because his world view as someone who works in both music and tech was bound to be interesting.
I know you wanted to pursue being a music lawyer, but it didn’t take immediately. What was the career path that got you to be a guy that was doing both music law and being the guy who represents media oriented tech companies.
SM:
After law school I worked at Sabin, Bermant and Gould, which is a firm that does a lot of work in the cable TV industry. I did corporate and cable TV type work at Sabin. When I left Sabin I thought I would start a music law practice; and I did have a music law practice the way almost every new lawyer does, where I picked up a few acts and tried to get deals for them. This is how it worked in the early 90’s. Ultimately this didn’t make as much as working with Internet companies, because in ’94, around the time of Mosaic, people who worked in a few of the sort of feeder companies that started Internet business – especially the Internet content business – started to form their own companies. It was a very heady time. They basically were going out and saying, “Well, we think we do some cool stuff with this media. We’re not sure what it is yet, but we want to start a company.” I was one of a very few lawyers in that milieu who knew how to do corporate formation work and early financing, and also the independent contractor agreement and all the company documents that were needed. So, I ended up picking up a bunch of those early companies, and that’s really what led me into that. I was very interested in the Internet, I was technologically savvy, and I ended up doing a lot of early stage company work for Internet companies in the early 90’s.
Tell me about how things started to shake out for you there. You were probably one of the few, again, established people, but all of a sudden you had a lot of deals under your belt. That must’ve been a really high time for you.
SM:
Yes, it was a really interesting time. 1995 was around the time when internet companies started getting funded. What was happening at the beginning was the healthy growth of an early-stage industry in which management teams were building real companies. They were thinking about, “How is this company going to make money, and how do we get to that point?” And then they started to look for venture finance, because they saw that as the best way to fund the companies because the most similar analogous company was a software company. So everyone looked at that the way software companies in Silicon Valley had formed. They said, “That looks like an Internet company, so those are the guys we’ll ask for money to do this business idea.”
What was fun about that era – the earlier era before it got ridiculous – was that we began doing the legal structures that allowed these businesses to exist. So we did digital distribution agreements for music, film distribution agreements, television deals, episodic online interactive show deals, advertising – the whole basis for advertising on the Internet. We worked on things like if you click a mouse, does that actually represent a signature, like a signed document, which we all know now it does, but at the time that was an unanswered question. So we did, from a legal perspective, answer a lot of unanswered questions.
That brings us to 1999 and 2000, when things really got ridiculous. For me it was summed up in one quote. At the time I was working with a client that was raising money, and they had a really good business plan that I had helped write. I had introduced them to a few people that might invest. They basically said to me, “The VC’s need this to be worth X amount.” And I said, “For it to be worth X amount, you have to make $100,000 a day for the next year, and you only have two people in your company.” And he said, “I don’t care. Just make it say that.” And that’s when I knew that we were in a terrible world of businesses that were unable to live up to their business model.
You’ve already seen the unwinding of one industry, and now the traditional music industry has started to unwind. As a guy who’s done content deals for mobile and content deals for all kinds of online streaming, and as a guy who has along the way developed a music practice – I realize you have other areas of interest as well – what do you think is next? What do you think artists should be looking for? You’re developing all these companies and doing legal work for companies, some of which are going to be the future. Where do you think artists should be focusing their attention?
SM:
It’s a really interesting question. I think we basically stalled after Napster. There was an opportunity to move to the new way of distributing music during the Napster era, and the labels and the content owners did not take that opportunity then. So we had a painful ten years during which a lot of money was left on the table, and now we’re doing it. So now distribution is moving to digital, and many would say it has moved to digital. The business model experimentation that should’ve happened ten years ago is now happening. And this year, 2010, will be a very big year for music services. There are a lot of mobile music services that are launching this year or that have already launched, that will compete for market dominance. In that environment, what an independent artist should do is to focus on writing the best songs they know how to write, doing their shows and then try to get themselves onto these music services. That’s my best advice for independent artists now.
Do you think that mobile and streaming companies still viable? You still saw a company like Nokia Comes with Music kind of underperformed given all expectations, and we have Spotify coming over from the UK. Do you really think that some of these companies will rise in 2010?
SM:
Well I forgot to say the most important thing, which is promote. You must promote your music. You must promote, or else nobody will want your music and nobody will want to distribute your music. Distributing music that is not promoted does not lead to money. Promotion is the most important thing. To answer the question about whether any of these mobile music services will fly, I believe they will. And the reason is, the technology is now there. It is now sufficient enough to distribute a music service, and the promotional money to launch these new music services is now there. It was a little nascent before. The marketing of the services was a little odd. For example, Nokia Comes with music, right out of the gate, just the name of the service indicates that the service is an ancillary side by-product of buying a mobile phone, whereas a music service that launches itself as a music service and says, “This is the business we’re in, if you like music, come here,” has a much better chance.
What about other products? Are you seeing any of these tech companies you’re working with developing possibilities for other streams of income for artists?
SM:
I don’t. I know that there are some old ideas which are gaining new life now. The business of licensing music to commercials and films and television is gaining new life through the use of some technology platforms and also because of the formation of some new sales ideas. I think the sales ideas are much more important than the technology. If there’s a way to assist the sales process great. But I think it is the sales process that is what allows the music to get sold. So, I have seen some new music licensing organizations start whose sole purpose is to try to sell music into television and commercials. I think that is starting to create more sales in that area. I wish I could say it is creating a Renaissance of sales, but I haven’t seen that. I have seen more and better sales and more creativity with regard to the music that is in movies and television shows.
Changing gears a little bit, are there common mistakes from your perspective that you think most artists don’t do that they should be doing?
SM:
I think I’m actually seeing most artists going back to basics, which I think is a really good thing for them to do. And back to basics is that they’re going back to the bedroom to write good songs, and then to test those songs out on a live audience and to not look at what they’re doing as a get-rich-quick scheme but as something but they can’t do anything else but to play music and to work on their skill and their art of making the best music they can make and then see how it plays against audiences. That’s really where the rubber hits the road. You can write the best song you think you’ve ever written, but the way the audience sees it could be completely different. The more you address your songs to a particular audience, the better likelihood you will have to develop better songs and songs that will play to the audience you are seeking. Once you have that, you have a good product; and selling a good product is always easy.
Rob Max is the Communication Director for the Sweet Relief Musicians Fund, an organization that provides financial assistance to career musicians who are facing Illness, disability or age related problems. Prior to working at Sweet Relief Rob was a musician, the manager / promoter of a music venue and ran a record store.
Start me out and tell me about your early music career.
RM:
After graduating the University of Maryland in the mid 80s I went into industrial and commercial real estate at a company in North Jersey. While II was doing that in my early 20’s, I got together with some friends of mine, and we started playing. I was a singer, and I also did percussion. A good buddy of mine and I formed a band called The Rain, and we were doing a lot of rock and roll covers, anything from Cream, to the Grateful Dead, to Pink Floyd, to Dylan, to The Band, and trying to create our own original music. We performed locally, we did parties, we did a couple small festivals they were called back then – nothing like what we have now. I think that band probably was around for maybe a year and it morphed into something with some other guys in a band that had just split up. We started practicing with them, and we were expanding our repertoire a little bit and trying to do more originals. After we had been together about five months and were playing some Dead stuff, I think it was at a party – I can’t remember exactly because this was taking place in about ’89, 20 years ago. We played a party and played some Dead tunes, and an individual saw us. There’s a group of folks called the Wharf Rats that follow the Grateful Dead and used to do 12-step meetings at the shows.
Someone from the Wharf Rats said, “Listen, we’re doing a party at the Wetlands in New York City, and we’d like you guys to play.” I guess the caveat was that we had to play Grateful Dead songs. We only knew about six songs, and we had about 60 days before the event, and we ended up learning another 20 songs. We hadn’t named ourselves yet, so we decided to name ourselves Crazy Fingers. We played this event, and they had a ton of people there. We weren’t anything like a Dark Side Orchestra, and we certainly weren’t as note for note as bands like Zen Trickster or any of the other bands that were playing back then; but we had some great, young musicians and I could do enough vocalizations to get a Bobby sound or a Jerry sound out. After we played the show, we ended up speaking to the Wetlands manager and the guy who was booking the show.
From that show they asked us if we wanted to be one of their regular Dead bands. They were doing a Tuesday night Dead Center, and they asked us to be a house band doing regular Dead Center nights. We did, and it was a great experience. We used to bounce around; there were guys like John Popper hanging out there all the time – Blues Traveler hadn’t hit yet – and Phish was around, and they hadn’t hit yet, Dave Matthews wasn’t big yet. These were some of the other folks that were playing that we’d hung out with.
I’m sure Chris from the Spin Doctors was also around.
RM:
That was the next word out of my mouth. Chris from the Spin Doctors. We weren’t anywhere near their creativity doing Grateful Dead music, but we did start working on some of our originals. And we did that for a number of years, and it was a great experience. I left my job and was playing full time. As any musician trying to get gigs, how do you survive? I caddied golf bags. I lived in New Jersey and a Country Club wasn’t far away. I could work four or five hours, make $100 and not have to do anything else. God knows I didn’t want to work at a company or a corporation. I grew my hair, and we had a great time. We developed a terrific following. I think like a lot of bands discover, our greatest gigs were local gigs out in New Jersey. We played at a church. We used to call it “Methodist Square Garden.” We would make two, three four times the amount of money we could make playing in clubs.
By creating your own venue?
RM:
Exactly, and that’s one of the things I can recommend for people coming up in bands, don’t knock yourself out always trying to get into the clubs. It certainly will get you seen and develop a following, but if you’re trying to survive, develop a regular monthly gig or two in your own area where you control it. The church loved us, all the kids were going there, and obviously there was no booze served, all our fans were all high school kids. But we would pack the place, and we got to do our own shows, and we had effects and smoke machines and projectors showing King Kong behind us. We could get a thousand bucks or more for a gig like that. At a club like the Wetlands the best nights they paid were going to be $500-$600. We’ve oscillated between playing clubs or we’d go up to Port Chester and someone would be doing a festival.
Did you ever make the jump from being a cover band to playing all originals?
RM:
No. We never got to make that jump. We couldn’t get into many venues doing other things. We happened to break at the right time doing Dead music. If you recall, that was the third coming of The Dead and the Touch of Grey era. If you were a Dead fan and going to shows, an entirely new group of teenagers were going to shows because of A Touch of Grey. The whole hit that came out, and we benefitted from that. Clubs that wouldn’t talk to us about playing what we wanted to play, it was popular for that era, from late 1988 to early 1992. It was a lot of fun, and there was never any point in time that I made enough money where I didn’t have to work another job, but on the East coast caddying golf bags was probably the most freedom you could have, and it worked out at that time to probably about $20-$25 per hour of earning money.
So you went from being a musician to running a record store to managing a music venue?
RM:
The whole band thing and that ran its course so I had to make some decisions – was I going to do music? What was I going to do? I wanted to write and still stay around entertainment and music so with a bunch of other guys I moved to California and we all landed in Laguna Beach, CA. The managing director of Sweet Relief actually used to manage the band I was in and both he and I ended up working in management and sales and development for Warehouse Entertainment. It was like a Blockbuster/Sam Goody combination. They had a whole music and movie section, and we both ended up managing locations. I managed a record store on the pier in Huntington Beach, CA. And from there, that was a stint for a couple years.
Those were crazy days. It was the CD boom, and the music industry was thriving. I used to have local bands play at the store. We would set them up on the pier out there and hide the power cord, then all of a sudden it was like those flash mobs. Out of nowhere all of a sudden without permission from corporate, I would just start having live bands play out on the pier at Huntington Beach. A huge crowd would come and the cops would show up; and they’d be trying to find the cord to pull the plug, and they couldn’t find it. We had a lot of fun back then.
So that was my experience working in the retail record world; and then from there I ended up going to the White House Restaurant and Tavern in Laguna Beach, which had a venue on one side and a restaurant on the other. I became the general manager and entertainment coordinator as well as the sound guy and the tech guy, and booked live music there seven nights a week for four to five years. And that was when I kind of saw the other side of it – bands constantly trying to get gigs, and how difficult it was, and how little we paid. We typically paid $400-$500, and it didn’t matter if you had four in your band; I had full-stage bands with ten people. I used to say to myself, “These people love music so much that they’re schlepping from Los Angeles to play a gig in Laguna Beach on a Thursday night with a ten-piece band, horns and back-up singers and they’re making $30 per person.
Probably less when you figure in expenses.
RM:
Yes. And I really got an appreciation. I certainly had passion for music but my talent was marginal at best, and I didn’t have that kind of drive. I got to see for five years all these bands that constantly were trying to get on the stage and would work for literally nothing. We’d serve them a meal as well, and they’d show up there early and play their hearts out. Some nights we were packed with three- or four-hundred people, other nights there’d be ten people.
Other than talent, what got your attention as a guy booking a club? What was it that made you take a band under your wing and try to develop them?
RM:
The bands that got played were those that were willing to do work to get people into the club. That was always the bottom line, and nine out of ten bands were always unwilling to do that.
I know this was before the digital age, so what did that entail back then?
RM:
It entailed street work. Back then people had paper mailing lists, but it would entail flyering wherever they lived locally and getting on the phone. If they wanted to get the gig and keep the gig they would have to make sure their first night there they did well. Typically what happened is bands did do well their first nights and their second night they bombed. I think what we’ve all seen in the music biz is that even your best fans will come out for you once, but if you don’t really have die-hard fans they may not show up the second time. Certainly with the level of bands we were dealing with which were more club bands, they weren’t focused on writing their original music per se, it wasn’t really a performance artist club, they really couldn’t back it up the second time.
What did the artists that made that transition do that the other artists did not?
RM:
Somebody in the band had the driving business skills required to be successful at having people show up. There was at least one person in the band – sometimes it was the leader, sometimes it was the drummer – that didn’t work another job and was willing all day and all night to pitch the band and get people to show up and get the word out. That was always the difference between the bands where I could see nobody was really driven or they shrugged their shoulders and didn’t know why anybody never came and the bands with at least one motivated person that this was their life – playing and getting other people to come see them. That was the key.
So you were there for five years. What was next and how did you get to Sweet Relief?
RM:
What was next was interesting. I ended up meeting a terrific young lady, and we got married and had a son during my last year there. And I said, “This world is not going to work for me.” I wanted to be an attentive dad, and I was doing the night club thing until three or four in the morning. So after some long and hard thought and doing a little investigating, I took a complete right turn, cut all my hair off – at that point I had hair down my back – and got in touch with an old friend from high school who had been in the commercial insurance back in New York City.
One of the things I think is always important for musicians and not something that Sweet Relief promotes but from my own perspective, I kept educating myself in the music business when I had a band. I made sure I didn’t miss the curve of the Internet and computers and all the skill sets that come along with that. I always kept up with my current events and news reading, not just necessarily looking for the skills where an opportunity would come up, but it made sense to me. Again, I wasn’t the kind of driven artist who focuses on their music. I was more the person who loved it but was a little more realistic. Through a number of conversations, a friend of mine asked me to come to New York and help him start a new business. He was starting an insurance agency that catered to the technology world. We started that company and we ended up selling it two years later to a larger company. I then got hired by another startup that was starting a digital Internet play in the commercial insurance business and became the director of that company. As my bio says on Sweet Relief, I grew that from twenty agents to a 4,000-client, $50-million-per-year enterprise; and it was a big change from music.
I would say so.
RM:
It was a big change, and it was really exciting for the first three years. Then, I just got bored. I was still a long-haired musician beach guy wearing a suit and guy and commuting into New York City every day at five in the morning. It just wore on me. This will get me into Sweet Relief. My good buddy Bill Bennett contacted me the summer before last and had just been approached with this opportunity to be involved with Sweet Relief. He asked me if I would be interested in helping him shepherd the growth of the charity. A year later I jumped in with Bill, and we’ve been trying to grow Sweet Relief into a substantial resource for musicians around the country.
Tell me in your words, what is Sweet Relief?
RM:
Sweet Relief Musicians Fund is a national charity designated 501(c)3, and Sweet Relief’s mission is to provide financial assistance for career musicians – there must be a level of professionalism in someone’s musicianship – that are facing disability, illness or age-related problems. That’s the mission and is exactly what we do. I love the fact that our mission – I’ve read other missions that say, “Well, we have a goal to create something …” – that is completely specific. We raise money to help musicians that are in trouble because of disability, illness or age-related problems and we do it a lot of different ways.
I guess speak to me about the climate. I think a lot of being in music as you’ve experienced is, “I’m going to be young forever and going to have monster hit after monster hit.” But with the way the business has changed and certain revenue streams have dried up, I’m guessing there’s probably an endless need for people living on royalty checks who have fallen on hard times as things have changed, as well as of course – I’m afraid to generalize – but musicians are not always great about managing their money and planning ahead.
RM:
You hit on two key things. There is a segment of the musicians who had successful professional careers, and now the atmosphere of today’s business segment of music has dried up on them. But the other point you hit on is, we deal with a lot – probably a majority – of musicians who were kind of in the world that I came from. They had a band or played professionally – maybe it was jazz, maybe it was orchestral, and I don’t include myself in this group – and were going to be musicians no matter what. They didn’t leave to go become an insurance guy. They stuck with it.
One of the ten people in the band that made $30 / night after driving forever in a van.
RM:
Exactly. And they’re still in it, and they play locally in Memphis, Oakland and wherever it is. And maybe they’re the local bar band that plays five nights a week, and they survive that way. They might have a part-time job or do something else, but those are the folks that if something goes wrong, they are really in big trouble. They don’t always have relationships to reach out to other musicians and get an assist.
No 401K, no pension, anything.
RM:
Yeah. For every musician that played on a stage like an arena, there are hundreds that have never got into that, yet are professional musicians, and that’s all they’ve done their whole life. That’s really the largest group of our constituency – the people that decided to play music, and when they get sick, they’re in trouble. And maybe they get income from being teachers of music, maybe they also work at a club at the door. They might have variable things where they get some income, but their sole direction is always been music. Some of the die-hard artists their 20’s don’t have health insurance, but sometimes as they get into their 20’s, 30’s and 40’s, they’re still in that same kind of position. Typically the only time I see these die-hards change is when what happened to me happens to them – they have children. And then they realize, “I can’t just bounce around from couches or cots. I’m in the position where I’m responsible to another human being.” And then they will typically start to pursue something where they can provide. But that not being the case, musicians can find themselves in a tough spot when they are ill or hurt.
How can people help?
RM:
Bands that are not yet on the national stage – they can help us tremendously. We’ve done numerous gigs this year where bands put on a show and they’ve raised $200, $300, $400 or $500. Not only did they get that opportunity to contribute and help other musicians, but we’ve also provided some national notoriety; we’ve put it up on our website and if it makes sense, we’ll put out a PR piece about it, and that will bring awareness to an audience of maybe 100 or 200. We’re always looking for musicians that want to take one of our gigs and make us a beneficiary. And if they go to our website, they’ll see my e-mail and our phone number, and they can call me directly. I love to hear from them, and we’ll try to contribute everything we can to make an event a success, or if there are other ways they want to contribute.
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For more info go to Sweet Relief or Follow Sweet relief on Twitter
This is the second part of my interview with Howie Schnee of Creative Entertainment Group and Sullivan Hall. You can see the first portion of the interview here.
What is your feeling on the pay to play concept and why?
Howie:
I don’t have a problem with it as a talent buyer or a manager. Bands pay for advertisements, promotion and publicity. The bands that “get it” realize that playing in front of a good crowd of like-minded fans is the best exposure available. Better than ads or publicity. When we book a strong regional or national act it generally carries a lot of risk on our part. We hedge that risk with opening acts that we know are worth a good amount of tickets. When a band comes along that we’ve never heard of submits to open on one of those shows there’s not much incentive for us to do it, so if it’s a good fit musically we may suggest that they “guarantee” their draw by selling or buying some tickets to the show. I’d understand why some bands would object, but I’ve found that most smart, motivated younger emerging bands will get out there and hustle and sell some advance tickets for the great exposure opportunity.
What are some of the most effective promotions and / or campaigns you
have seen that have made for great shows?
Howie:
I could name a lot of great promotions and campaigns but I think the general themes an act should focus on are: not overplaying any market they’re building; align themselves with other like-minded bands; try to build their own little scene; making their fans feel a part of the show and the success of the show in some way- in any way. That and delivering a great experience once they actually get to the show.
I remember when I played your club as a kid that some bands from out of
town would bus in their fans for the show and nightlife in NYC. Does this
kind of thing still work for people looking to build New York as a secondary market?
Howie:
Bands from Jersey, CT, PA still do this. Here is an example of where we’d be amenable to putting a band on a really good exposure slot. The band obviously put a lot of work and money into organizing the bus trip, and they’ve guaranteed that they’d have at least 40 – 50 people coming to the show on their bus. Therefore, I think it can be a really smart way for a band to begin to build their audience in the city. As long as they play on the right show at the right time slot and gain some good exposure from the show, and they follow up the show in the not-too-distant future, it’s a worthy investment.
What are the absolute requirements for getting people out to a show in
your opinion? Is it promotions on Facebook and MySpace, or good old-fashioned flyering? What works in your opinion? Also, do you find that there is more impact from in person promotion than online promotion?
Howie:
All of the above. A band should be utilizing every tool at their disposal, and these days, there are so many free ways online and off for a band to use. I definitely think musicians, particularly outgoing ones, should be out there networking, meeting potential fans and other musicians like it’s their career. They should always be armed with music for those that seem interested – CDs, MP3 cards, flash drives. Bands shouldn’t be too concerned with giving away their music vs. selling it. The primary goal is to create fans in the long run, not make a few dollars in the short run.
There’s a band we booked a few years ago that are doing really well. Touring nationally. Their band is their full-time job. They’ve gotten themselves onto a lot of the major summer festivals out there. Anyway, a couple guys from the band were always out there pushing their band. At every show and event, handing out cards, giving people CDs, almost every night. Constantly making in-roads with the tastemakers. If it wasn’t for their hard work ethic, I don’t think they’d be anywhere close to the level they’re at now.
What would you say has separated the groups that have gone on to play bigger and bigger clubs and draw more and more people from the ones that never got an audience beyond their friends?
Howie:
Talent, drive and organization. You can get a sense of all three pretty quickly.
Knowing what you know now- say you got to start over as a musician and
retain this knowledge – what is your best advice or guideline for building a
following?
Howie:
It’s a mix of what I’ve been referencing in my answers to your questions. I’m a big proponent of a band working really hard on their live show. If the show is something special, and the band is hard working, and employs many of the tactics I’ve referred to, then the band has a great shot. In the 90s and the first 3 or 4 years of this decade, it was all about getting a record deal. That was what was on every band’s mind. These days, many bands’ goal is to find a good agent. The diminishing influence of the major label system has evened the playing field in many ways. I think these days, if a band doesn’t have a killer live show, and they plan on having a career, they should work tirelessly on developing the best live show possible.
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For more information on Howie Schnee and his company visit Creative Entertainment Group.
I was able to ask my friend Howie Schnee the Co-Owner of Creative Entertainment Group and Co-Owner of Sullivan Hall and Sullivan Room in New York a few questions about what his job is like and what helps influence his decisions in booking bands into his clubs. I have known Howie since the early 90s when Sullivan Hall was called the Lion’s Den. He was in fact the first club owner to take a risk on a band I played with in college many years ago.
Howie has been responsible for building more acts on a local or regional level than any three people I know. The Lion’s Den (now Sullivan Hall) was one of the stepping stone clubs that most bands who wound up on Bonnaroo or the H.O.R.D.E. tour played before becoming big regional or national acts.
Howie's Venue- Sulivan Hall
How has the process of band /artist selection changed at the clubs in the last 10-15 years both for established artists and for the audition nights or slow nights when you are trying out new local talent. (online vs offline, more or less competition for slots etc…)
Howie:
It’s changed significantly. The immediacy of the web is mind-boggling. Almost all bands post samples of their music online. The old way was for bands to make initial contact over the phone and follow up with a press kit. By the time we received that press kit, details of that initial conversation were fuzzy at best. Besides music being immediate, there are many clues online that give a good idea as to whether or not a band has their act together so to speak such as having a robust website. Also, whether or not there’s some buzz and awareness about them like having a lot of Myspace plays, Facebook friends, Twitter followers for example. I’ll occasionally do random searches to see if there’s any interesting press about the act.
How do you prefer to be approached by an unknown artist trying to get a
show at the clubs you book? (referral, cold calling, how materials should be
presented and where i.e. Sonicbids, myspace etc)
Howie:
It’s really best for bands to include links for all of their sites they have EPKs on – MySpace, Sonicbids, Reverb Nation, etc. Just depending upon the buyer’s preference of site(s) they like to review bands on. A band should state the basics that talent buyers would like to know: where they’re from, what genre(s) they consider themselves to be in, when and where they’ve played the market before and how it went. If a band has friends, family or any roots to New York City that will insure a decent draw, that’s a good thing to mention. Also, anything noteworthy that may garner attention – album release show, TV or radio appearances, notable press, etc.
For a new band with few or no references that you can call to get a feel
for their following – how is the best way to approach you and how often so
as to be heard but not to annoy the hell out of you?
Howie:
References aren’t necessarily important, but professionalism and a good attitude go a long way. The other day I booked an out-of-town people who drew only 20 people to a show, on a Wednesday. Their manager followed up with a great email of thanks, but also noting how he felt strongly if we gave them a chance on a weekend night, he knew they could do 50 people at minimum. Then he followed that up with something to the effect of ‘I understand if you’d like to keep us to a week night and we’ll work hard to get to a weekend night eventually.’ His non-demanding positive attitude implored me to give him a weekend show despite the smaller draw. It also helped that their music was really good.
Describe the volume of submissions you get on a daily or weekly basis for
artist who want to play shows at Sullivan Hall and what percentage of those
actually get in the door to play?
Howie:
There are three of us that book the club so it’s hard to say exactly. I’d estimate we probably get around 20-25 submissions a day on average. Unless a band’s music or attitude is really terrible, we give most bands a shot. First time in though, it may be on a Monday or Tuesday.
What traits in a band member or manager make you feel like this is
someone who is serious about their business and makes you want to help them
build their following (both for you and the club)
Howie:
I alluded to it earlier. Positive attitude, non-demanding, carrying themselves professionally, strong work ethic all go a long way with me. That hard work ethic is essential if a band wants to take it to the next level. Nothing should be beneath them. I love walking out of a show and seeing a musician handing out hand bills or CDs or MP3 cards promoting their band. If I see that, and its 30 degrees and snowing, no matter what they sound like, I’ll book that band.
Describe some of the frustrations you have with they way musicians
approach you for a gig and things that people should avoid saying / doing.
Howie:
One of the most frustrating things is when you book an act, and discover afterwards they have multiple gigs lined up in town, and they’ve never bothered to mention it. I can understand a band wanting to get out there and play a lot (although I don’t feel that’s the right approach), but they should mention it during the booking process. I think acts should be more focused on the quality of shows they do versus quantity. Acts should be thinking in a reciprocal manor – not just ‘what can I get out of this?’
Let’s say your band can draw 50 people on a week night in New York. Your draw may be predominantly friends and fans at that point. Which is fine. Almost all bands start with friends and family. If your band starts booking 2 or more times per month, you’ll start to have diminishing returns. Now we book you after you’ve played a number of shows in town in a short period of time, and we put you on a good night on a good show, and almost no one comes out. You’ve benefited from the exposure but have offered nothing in return. You’ve spoiled your relationship with us. Bands should be thinking in reciprocal terms. Not only ‘what can we get out of this?’ but ‘what can we do for the club, or promoter, or the other bands on the bill for that matter?’
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I will be posting the rest of my conversation with Howie in the next few weeks. In the meantime you can check out his management and marketing company Creative Entertainment Group.
I recently spoke with Josh Lamstein, a Managing Director of GF Capital. GF Capital a private equity fund focused on investments in media and branded consumer products. I know this seems like an odd interview for a music industry blog but I am often making the comparison of a band or an artist as a start up company and a record label or a publisher as a private equity fund or a venture capitalist. I am hopeful that gaining an understanding from Josh about how he and his fund select start up companies will help us understand how important self starting and building one’s own business is for an artist. For all intents and purposes Josh functions like an A&R person who is looking to invest in companies rather than artists.
Musician Coaching:
Josh thanks as always for your time. If you would, tell me in your own words what your job is about.
Josh:
My job is to evaluate businesses and industries and to figure out which industries that we want to invest in and within those industries which companies are the most exciting. In practical terms that means doing research on growth rates within an industry, finding out who the entrenched players are within an industry and determining where there might be gaps in their own strategies that could be exploited by smaller companies as GF tends to invest in smaller companies.
Musician Coaching:
Define what a smaller company is in your eyes?
Josh:
We tend to invest in companies that are 15-50 million dollars of annual revenue and 3-15 million dollars of EBITDA. For media / content oriented companies we focus on Intellectual property (music, video software etc).
Musician Coaching:
Now forgive me because as you know I’m not the guy who brings the macaroni to the Mensa meetings; would you say it’s an apt comparison that your function at GF is similar to that of an A&R executive at a record label or publisher except that you are looking for corporations rather than talent to invest in?
Josh:
Yes, that’s accurate.
Musician Coaching:
So in layman’s terms, in deference to myself not in deference to the reader, what is it about a corporation or a corporation’s financial health that gets your attention as a possible investment?
Josh:
Taking a step back- the most important thing, and this is really what our job is, is to assess the management team. So in the parlance of what you are comparing this to our job is assessing the people in the band themselves.
Musician Coaching:
I would guess this would also apply to a band’s employees or band manager or booking agent if we were to continue this analogy further…
Josh:
Absolutely. Companies are organisms and you need to ensure that the people who are directing this organism are the kind of people who are willing to accept defeat yet keep on going until they find the path to a successful outcome. So we look for…
Musician Coaching:
People with that kind of track record?
Josh:
People who are willing to eat glass if that’s what it would take to become successful. People who are really driven towards success and excellence in what they do…
So… What we look for in companies in the media industry is a margin profile that is very attractive. Meaning a company of interest to us has gross margins (profit per unit before expenses, overhead etc) that tend to be very high. If the gross margins aren’t high – we want to dig in and understand a bit about why that may be. Then we look underneath that to see if the management of the corporation paying themselves a great deal of money. Are these people driving the success of the business; does that success tie in to their equity value as opposed to their compensation? It is a question of if they are managing in a lean way.
Musician Coaching:
So how much a company would re-invest in its growth would be important to you.
Josh:
Yes, we tend to look for people who are focused on the long term as opposed to clipping the coupons so to speak.
Musician Coaching:
Tell me about your thoughts about the music business in general right now. You are clearly looking at music and media companies to invest in. Do you see anything (without divulging sensitive information) that you like or models that you think are working right now?
Josh:
We are interested in a variety of areas. The publishing arena is an area we are interested in and is a good private equity business. Number one, you own the Intellectual property. Two- we don’t have to make tremendous bets on the outcome given that the types of publishing libraries we are looking at, libraries that have a historical track record.
Musician Coaching:
I am going to switch gears for a moment. I know doing what you do people come to you as really new start up companies because you know your way around finance. As I’ve mentioned to you in the past I think most artists and bands are in that situation of being a brand new start up company. Given that, is there any general entrepreneurial advice you could give to bands / artists who in most cases is borrowing or investing their own money to make a product in a high risk business like music? Are there things you have seen that you would have people steer clear of?
Josh:
In the pure corporate world – the longer you are able to go without taking on a venture capitalist the better it is for your company. A venture capitalist tends to have a very different type of incentive. The VC is really looking for a home run and will run the business as hard as they can to get that home run.
Musician Coaching:
I would guess everyone is looking for a home run – is this a matter of timing does a venture capitalist need this home run by a certain deadline or…
Josh:
So it tends to be the case that there are many businesses without Venture capital they would perform in a solid if unspectacular way and that’s not appealing to a venture capitalist.
Musician Coaching:
Continuing the baseball analogy is it the difference between reliably making base hits or going for a home run and very possibly striking out? Meaning a venture capitalist will bet more and more risky in many cases than a company would if self funded?
Josh:
Yes, the venture capitalist portfolio will typically have something on the order of 15-20 companies. Of those 1-2 will be home runs in a good portfolio. The rest will be either complete wipe outs or marginal successes.
Musician Coaching:
So basically a small number of large successes will cover for a lot of misses. That sounds just like a major label.
Another question – is it so that the earlier in a company’s growth cycle that they partner with an investor, the more of a stake that investor is able to take?
Josh:
That’s correct. In a company you are giving up ownership for an artist I’m not sure how exactly it would translate.
Musician Coaching:
For an artist it could be relinquishing some publishing rights or just a split or percentage with a strategic partner that would be considerably less than if they were able to build their business more on their own. You have nothing to bargain with if you haven’t demonstrated your viability. Josh thanks again for your time.
Neil Patel is widely considered an Internet marketing genius. Those who know me well know I say the word genius a great deal but I am being completely sarcastic. I would not be sarcastic at all when using that term referring to Neil.
By the age of 21 Neil was named a top blogger by Technocrati and one of the top influencers on the web according to the Wall Street Journal. He has founded two Internet companies, Crazy Egg and KISSmetrics and through those companies he has helped major corporations like AOL, General Motors and Viacom with their web strategies. I first came across Neil on his blog Quicksprout.com.
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A side note, in April of 1985 I was about halfway through completing Pitfall II and listening to a lot of Van Halen. Neil was born in April of 1985… I am having trouble wrapping my mind around this but I am also beyond flattered that he would take the time to answer some questions.
——————
Neil Patel
Musician Coaching:
Neil thanks again for taking the time to speak with me. I wanted to speak with you because of your background with start-up companies (which I often compare to developing artists) and because you have done a wonderful job marketing your companies and yourself online. Most artists / bands out there are just struggling to be heard. Bearing in mind that having great content is the X factor that is completely up to the musicians themselves; what would you say are absolute requirements when selecting a domain name and trying to get relevant traffic to their websites?
Neil:
I recommend selecting the name of your band. If you can’t get that, then it’s going to be a tough road ahead. In addition to that, I would also buy the domain names for each of the band members. If for some unlucky reason you can’t get your band name, I would recommend buying it from whoever owns it. Just don’t tell them that it is the name of your band or else they may ask for a bit more.
As for relevant traffic consider leveraging popular music sites like MySpace and some of the websites listed here:
*** Note – the linked list is a bit out of date, as you will see if you explore it. Some of these companies have changed business models or closed all together. I would recommend checking out the sites from that list that still work and adding ReverbNation & IndabaMusic ***
Musician Coaching:
Are there things that should be avoided at all costs, online strategies that could damage a company / band’s online presence or that just aren’t effective?
Neil:
Spending any money on marketing should be avoided. Especially if you are a new band, you can always put your money better to use. Go after all of the grass root marketing before you spend money on advertising.
Musician Coaching:
You have run Internet marketing companies in the past. In terms of SEO, what percentage of the work would you say is on-site vs. off-site? Are the basics making sure that everything on-site is correctly tagged and the keywords highlighted in the right order for search engines? Is the off-site as simple as creating new content and having link-backs?
***Note – if you don’t know about SEO now is the time to learn***
Neil:
The most important part of SEO is link building (off-site). The more websites that link to yours, the more search engine traffic you will receive. As for on page SEO there are a lot of basic things to consider. But instead of going through each of them, I rather point you out to a well-written white paper called the Beginners Guide to SEO:
And as for link building tactics, I would consider cross promoting your website with other local bands. Writing good content is also a good strategy, but for a band releasing your music for free online may be a better strategy.
Musician Coaching:
Before there is significant traffic on your site providing you analytics and metrics to look at, how do you go about finding the audience for your companies and / or your companies clients, is their a science to this? What methods do you use to size up the competition?
Neil:
There is a science behind measuring your audience. I wish I could explain it in a few paragraphs or even in a few pages, but it just isn’t possible. Instead I recommend reading: Web Analytics – An Hour a Day.
Musician Coaching:
… it’s a great book.
Neil:
A good way you can size up your competition is through sites like Alexa, Compete, and Quantcast. These 3 sites will give you a good understanding of how much traffic your competition is receiving to their website.
Musician Coaching:
Your last few ventures have been very data oriented. Above and beyond determining what online content or marketing strategies were effective for your company – what is the next frontier, how are pioneers using this data today and / or the rest of going to use this data in the future?
Neil:
I think the future is giving customers actionable data. There are tons of business intelligence and analytics solutions that spit out data, but consumers are confused about what to do with it. With my new company, KISSmetrics, our goal is to provide consumers with actionable data. The stuff that tells you how to improve or grow your web based business/site.
Musician Coaching:
Given that some of the most important content that artists will have is rich media (photos, audio and video) – does this alter an online marketing strategy? Are the recommendations for making sure this data is found above and beyond alt tagging / making sure the associated meta-data is intact?
Neil:
Yes, it does alter your strategy. Because of all the rich content you have, you can promote your content through sites many businesses can’t leverage.
You can upload your band photos to social photo sites like Flickr.
You can upload your videos to sites like YouTube.
You can upload your audio to social networks like MySpace and Facebook.
The possibilities are endless; you just have to get creative.
If you do leverage these social sites, make sure you don’t just add your videos and photos to these sites. You need to tag them with the appropriate keywords. Not just your band name, but also popular terms that are related to your music.
Most importantly, with every photo or video make sure you are using an attractive title that describes your content as well as a keyword rich description (don’t spam, but use keywords when it makes sense).
Musician Coaching:
There is so much out there on online marketing and SEO. Are there books or blogs that you think have superior information?
Neil:
I am not a fan of books on SEO because the information in the book can get outdated pretty quick. I would consider reading:
SEObook – one of the best blogs when it comes to SEO advice
Search Engine Land – general news and tips on search engines.
SEOmoz – another blog with good SEO tips.
Musician Coaching:
Last question, if you had a group together and were trying to get their music heard online and offline what would your (very basic) strategy be for getting heard? I know the core music business isn’t your expertise but the music business is disarray at the moment. I figure you might have some great ideas.
Neil:
I would first create band pages with my music on all of the major social networks. After I have done that I would go to all of the other popular bands that are similar and make them my friends. And lastly, I would then interact with other bands through their social profiles. I would do this through commenting, which is a great way to drive their visitors back to my band profile page.
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I would like to thank Neil again for his time. Please visit his blog Quicksprout for some amazing business advice and to learn more about his story.
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