A blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
You Are Viewing music as a career
The following is Part 2 of an interview that a client and friend Ivan David Amaya conducted in order to support research for his dissertation on the topic of entrepreneurial careers in the music industry. Ivan is a musician and recently got his MBA at Ealing, Hammersmith & West London College, University of Wales.
In this part of the interview, we talked about different marketing tools and strategies that are valuable to musicians. We also talked about what “success” means in the music industry and how artists can strengthen their revenue streams.
In your opinion, what marketing tools are the most useful to musicians?
Having a professional website and a presence on social media sites are key. In my opinion, the three essential social media sites are Facebook, Twitter and YouTube, but there are other platforms that work for certain artists. Instagram and Tumblr are definitely worth exploring. I think having a video of any kind is an invaluable marketing tool. And people have to think of their marketing efforts as long-term strategies.
Probably the most important strategy is building a mailing list. As an artist, you can live or die by your mailing list. Fan-funding campaigns are big right now, and when fan-funding platforms determine how much money they think people can raise, the first thing they look at is the size of their mailing list. Having a social media presence and engaging with fans via Facebook, Twitter, etc. is important, but the mailing list is gold, because email marketing has been proven to have a better conversion rate than social media.
A lot of people these days are just targeting fans, constantly thinking, “direct to fan, direct to fan,” but they forget that they should also be building relationships with other musicians. As an artist, it really helps to create or join a community- this allows you to market to the fan bases of other artists en masse and allows them to do the same thing with your crowd.
People also forget how easily they can get caught up in social media. I think it’s really important to be out in the world and to really shake people’s hands. I see a lot of bands playing onstage expecting people to know who they are just because their name was in the paper. They don’t even say who they are on stage (or have a banner or signage of any kind). I recommend that everyone grab a Google Voice number and have people text their email addresses to that number for some kind of free giveaway. This allows a band to market to people’s email but also you can send texts to mobile phones. This can be really powerful too.
Going back to the topic of pursuing other musicians, I think people really believe there is this one music business person that can really help them. But the developing acts I know have really strong relationships with other artists, and those relationships are what get them the better slots on tour and collaboration opportunities. Even very successful artists continue to build relationships with new and younger artists by starting record labels, etc. It’s smart to realize that if you’re not reaching down to a younger generation of musicians you might become outdated very quickly. There is an older musician named Butch Walker, who was at one point struggling to remain relevant. Then he started producing all of these younger acts, and then these younger acts, in exchange, started bringing him out, putting him in their community and in front of their crowds. You can also extend how relevant you are based on your relationship with other artists, because if your friends become successful, you get a share in that to a certain point. Building relationships in person is really huge.
You read a million articles that talk about the importance of getting a new Facebook friend. That’s important, but I think people often get too caught up in online activities and forget they need to go out and meet people. I’ve discovered that people I contact are really taken aback when I call them unless I already have an on-going relationship with them, whereas, if I have already established some sort of a relationship with them, they are happy to hear from me when I reach out to have a more significant conversation.
On a similar note, many people believe that blasting an impersonal message into the world is going to get them a response. People don’t respond to obviously cut-and-paste emails. Sometimes you have to reach out to people you don’t know in order to be successful. But when you do that with a form letter, those people will not care. There are all these tastemakers and other people in a position to help you out: the booker of a local club, etc. And they’re getting a lot of emails saying, “Hey, this is my band. We want to play” with no more reasoning other than “We’re great. We’re going to make it big.” Everyone thinks they’re really great, so this statement means nothing.
When you approach somebody cold, the important things to mention are why you are approaching them, what you want and why that should be of value to them. I think a lot of people run head first into saying, “I want you. You should manage us”. People email other people basically proposing marriage on the first date or even before: “Hi. You’re pretty. Marry me.” As an artist, you need to relax, provide information and try to get to know someone: “Hey, this is who I am. I am approaching you for this reason. I think you should care because X, Y, Z.” And that “X, Y, Z” can be the number of records you’ve sold or an ancillary business you’ve done really well in. There should be facts that are relevant above and beyond “I play the same twelve notes as everybody else, and I think I’m great.” A big part of marketing is being personable whether in person or not.
So, creating a community is key.
I think so. I am not saying it doesn’t happen without communities, but I think artists with communities have a much better shot at a long-term career.
I am also a fan of creating what I call “jointly-branded experiences” or “jointly-branded products.” This could mean touring with a series of bands or even playing shows with the same kind of bands and making sure the fan base is intermixed, because when you’re selling a show you’re not only selling what you’re playing; you’re also selling other members of your audience to each other; you’re selling a good time. For example, I don’t think anybody goes to see Phish anymore just so see Phish; they go to see the other people that go to see Phish. They think, “That cute girl from Colorado is going to be there.” People are looking for a good time, and music is just a part of that. If you can encourage a community, you know you’re not just selling your band, you’re also selling a great night.
The jointly-branded experience doesn’t just have to be with another artist. I put together a show with an artist I work with, and there was a guy at the show painting, live. He hung his artwork on the walls and did a gallery show. Every show has to be an event. And the most important part about events is the sense of community. And if you’re co-writing or collaborating with other people in any form, you are incentivising them to promote your work, because they have skin in the game. It’s about teamwork vs. a solo effort.
If you went out as a solo artist today completely on your own, it would be much harder because you wouldn’t have peers – other obsessive people who were invested in making what you’re doing great. A lot of people forget that it is not just a band that gets to see the world; it’s band/artist and their friends, their friends’ friends and the people they can collaborate with, work with and hang out with. You’re not just selling your music at a certain point. The really successful artists wind up selling culture. Lady Gaga has culture, although I don’t claim to identify with it. Jack Johnson has culture, if you’re a surfer. I am a surfer, and in every little surf town where I go, there is Jack Johnson playing. The guy scored videos for surf films. There is something about his music that resonated in that community and continues to do so. Another part of marketing is identifying some cultures that you are genuinely affiliated with. You can’t just say, “Hey, I think skaters are cool. Let’s go and play at skate parks.” That tends to fail, because fans can just sense when something is forced marketing vs. authentic.
Are you still playing hard rock/metal music?
Yes. And I remember you talking to me about this concept. My music has kind of a cinematic edge to it, and you told me I should get more in touch with indie film makers and try to connect with that aesthetic. It has been working so far.
It’s a gross generalization, but if I work with a metal band, I think, “All right, do they have lot of tattoos? Do they like to drink hard liquor? Do they like to ride motorcycles?” And if you are a metal band and can say, “Yes” to these questions, you pursue people who are in those communities and make sure there’s a reason that they show up to hear your music.
I had someone come to me and say, “Well, you know, I’m Christian. All my fans are Christian, but I don’t want to be a Christian artist.” My advice is to take what you have and then expand. Don’t run away from being liked. People are showing up to your shows, so you need to embrace that. Ultimately, who your fans are is not always up to you. The minute you decided to be in business, your job became to get people what they want. You need to get people showing up to hear your music what they need. If you want to expand it, that’s great, but you can’t alienate people who are already there.
A classic example of this concept is someone coming to me and saying, “Well, everybody loves this song live, but I don’t want to record it, because I don’t really like playing it.” You know what? If you’re trying to do this for a living, your vote goes out the window. There are a million stories of people hating their biggest hits. Artists have to remember that playing music is very self-indulgent, but if they decided to do it for a living, it is no longer just about them.
Is success quantifiable? What does “success” look like?
First of all, success is different for everyone.
Second of all, it’s never quite what it looks like on the outside. There are people very much in the public eye that are broke. I hear stories all the time about well-known hip-hop artists who are wearing $100,000 Rolexes. But if you get a little closer to the story you see that they had to sell their artists’ share of their publishing, because they were flat broke from living that lifestyle. I think people have to remember that appearances are almost never what they seem.
Success, to me, is making a living doing what you love, providing for you and your family and making sure that if you’re going to have a lengthy career like this, you have something stored away as insurance. If you want to be famous or rich, there are a lot of ways to do that. If you want to be rich, go be a banker. If you want to be famous, go get on a reality show and eat insects … or whatever people are doing now. If you want to play music, you have to accept that the average musician isn’t making more than about $40,000 per year. You can certainly do better than that. You can take all the ancillary skills you learn along the way (as we discussed earlier) and then translate those skills into additional skills. For example, if you discover that you’re good at production, you might wind up producing other people to fund your music career. And through that, you might find out that you are really good at mixing. You may also discover that you’re really good at booking your own band and pick up a few other bands to book and make some money that way. I ended up in a record company because I was trying to figure out how to get my band signed. I wouldn’t necessarily recommend diving head-first into the executive thing. Just because I decided that it was easier and safer than just being an artist doesn’t mean it is necessarily a good choice if you want to be in the business for life.
Success is a difficult concept to define. A lot of people say, “I’m really successful because I have 100,000 Twitter followers.” There’s a certain amount of wagging the dog and a certain amount of saying, “We’re going to inflate the public appearance of our success to gain success” going on. I’m not saying that these metrics don’t have some merit, because they do. But I think people can get too caught up in appearances, to the point where they will buy Twitter followers, fans and make sure they look really successful to anybody who sees them. And mere appearances are not “success.” Your happiness, your health and your ability to provide/make a living for you and for your family on a long-term basis is success.
You talk about musicians turning to live shows and merchandise. What other sources of income should artists pursue?
It comes back to the ancillary skills. If you’re a good guitar player, you should not treat your band like a monogamous romantic relationship; you should go be a session player. The other income streams basically involve making sure you are always playing music. The people I know who have become successful musicians were the people who were always playing. They always found a way and were not held back by other people because it was difficult. They were the people who say, “You know what? I want to gig all the time. I want to play all the time. I want to record all the time.”
You can also pursue licensing – although I think licensing is very difficult. But it is worth pursuing those types of relationships. I also think there are music-for-hire opportunities that people should consider. But I think making a living playing music has become about setting up multiple revenue streams and certainly, also about song writing. Every song you write is a virus, and the more you have out there – of quality – the better chance you have on having something that will sustain you. We are all looking for the “money button” and to not be in the service industry. We’re looking for having something that generates on-going income, and your best shot at finding this as a musician is the composition. Someone out there has to write the next “Happy Birthday.” Writing, publishing and diversifying are all critical.
Chris Wallace is a singer, songwriter and producer as well as the former front man for the pop rock band The White Tie Affair. A major music fan and a serious athlete growing up in Hebron, IN, Chris picked up guitar as a teenager after he broke his collarbone playing soccer and was looking for a way to channel his energy. He played in local bar bands and eventually put together his own band Quad Four, simultaneously embracing his skills as a lead vocalist. He decided to post a track he wrote, “Allow Me To Introduce Myself … Mr. Right” on MySpace, which exploded overnight and led him to get signed to Epic Records and to form the band The White Tie Affair. In 2012, he recorded his debut album as a solo artist, Push Rewind. The first single, “Remember When (Push Rewind),” which continues to thrive on Top 40 radio, was named one of iTunes “Best Songs of 2012.” The entire album also earned iTunes’ “Best Breakthrough Pop Album of 2012” honor. Chris has toured extensively throughout the world, with both with his band The White Tie Affair and as a solo artist, sharing the stage with mega artists like Lady Gaga, Cyndi Lauper, the B-52’s, Andy Grammer and Olly Murs. He has appeared on Jimmy Kimmel Live, Access Hollywood and E! News and has been featured in Billboard magazine, US Weekly and Entertainment Weekly.
I got to talk to Chris about his on-going journey as a hard-working singer and songwriter as well as about the important lessons he learned when he was just starting out in the music business. He also shared some words of wisdom with emerging artists about how they can find a solid support team to help them accomplish their goals and advance their music careers.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk, Chris. How did you first get started in music?
I always loved music, but I didn’t realize how obsessed I was with it until I was about 14. I was always really into sports. Because I have always been a dreamer, I always wanted to take everything to the next level, so I thought for a while I would be a pro athlete. I always knew I didn’t want a normal 9-5, even when I was really young. I looked at my parents, aunts and uncles and didn’t think their life looked like fun. It was always in me to do something beyond that.
Eventually, I decided that playing sports wasn’t my thing. But I always loved music and had always listened to it. After I broke my collarbone playing soccer, I begged my parents for a guitar and just dove completely into music, almost blindly. I didn’t get lessons. I would just sit in my room and emulate the artists I was listening to at the time. I started a band, and we didn’t have a singer, which segued into me deciding to sing and play guitar. And as we went along, I realized my singing was getting better and better.
After a while, this local band asked me to sing for them. They were a pretty established band that played shows and actually made money, and I decided I would give it a shot. As soon as I accepted that, the experience really exposed what I was supposed to be as a live performer. I was in that band for a couple years, and I really enjoyed it, but they played mostly covers, and I felt there was something missing. So, I started writing my own songs.
I started realizing that it was the songs which were key, not the live performance. I discovered that it wasn’t about how well you could play guitar, it was about how great the songs were; the songs were what people went home with after seeing you perform. I fell in love with songwriting, which changed everything.
A couple years later, I had a record deal with my band and was on tour and recording. But locally, I couldn’t find people who were as dedicated as I was. We would rehearse four times per week, and I would still ask people in the band if they could give more. I always felt like I was pushing my band mates too hard, and I actually thought there was something wrong with me. I couldn’t understand why they didn’t want it as much as I did. I just wanted whatever “it” was more than anyone else.
I grew up in Northwest Indiana. And when you grow up in a small town – especially when you meet people from out of town and are trying to be someone who is larger than life – you tend to gravitate towards a city that is larger than you. At the time, I would say the bands I was in were from Chicago, because it gave people an easier frame of reference. When I started White Tie Affair and put together all the social media, I put Chicago as our location, because I think that’s where I wanted to be at the time.
I think that tendency is just part of being a dreamer, too. For example, when you look at someone’s online profile, it will often say they are from a certain place they really want to be, rather than where they actually are. They put it out there in the world, and sometimes it comes true. I did the same thing. I knew I wanted something, but I didn’t know how I was going to get it. I just tried everything I could.
I had played in a bunch of local bands and had a song idea for a song called “Mr. Right.” And a friend of mine heard it and said, “I think this is a really new sound – something different that hasn’t been heard before.” I went home and recorded a demo of it and put it on the Internet and started a band called The White Tie Affair. At first, I didn’t put up any photos. My friend made up a fake picture of three silhouettes, even though the band was originally just me. Everyone else was throwing up pictures and showing the world what they looked like, but I didn’t. And I just put up one song on my webpage. Overnight, it exploded on its own.
That just proves that you don’t always know when you have something people want.
Yes. I never realized it before. I had been chasing shows and trying to find every A&R person I could, from every label I wanted to get signed to. And I put out one thing that the labels considered good or great, and they came to my doorstep. My life really did change overnight. Four labels were suddenly all trying to sign me at once.
And you went to Epic, and then you and the label put the band together?
I was in another band at the time and didn’t want them to know I was starting a side project. I had showed them the song that ended up being the first song from The White Tie Affair. And everyone in the band said it wasn’t any good, and they didn’t think it was a sound they wanted to have, even though I really liked it. That was why I originally didn’t put up any pictures. And, of course, the song then did the work on its own. A couple weeks after the song did so well, the other band members came around. That was the first time in my life I had ever had anything like that happen with anything I was doing. And luckily enough, it lasted.
The White Tie Affair did ultimately consist of some of the members from the band I was already in that I brought over with me. But since the photo I had put up was of three silhouettes, when I went to meet with labels initially, I just brought two friends along. I wanted it to be a solo project at first, but then I quickly realized I wanted some other people to form a band. It was almost a split-second decision that I made when I was on the phone with each of the labels and they asked me how many people were in the band.
It wasn’t actually a decision I planned on hanging onto, but the labels agreed with me that it should be a band and convinced me it was the way to go.
And how long was The White Tie Affair’s run?
The album came out through Epic in April of 2008 and then went to radio six months later. The song “Candle (Sick and Tired)” peaked at radio at 22 on the chart in April of 2009. It was another song I wrote that no one liked initially.
But eventually, someone did.
Eventually. Sometimes in these early stages of being an artist, you’re kind of vulnerable. And you trust your peers to tell you if it’s good enough, even when you know and feel it is good. Still, you might write something you think is great and other people don’t agree. And of course, when you’re on a label, you have to please everybody; all people involved need to think a song is good. When I wrote “Candle” and sent it to the label and my manager, and they didn’t even reply back to me about it. A few days later, I followed up and asked if they had heard the song. They told me it was alright, but that I should keep writing.
And I think being an artist is all about that journey. A lot of musicians reading this are likely still in the early phases where they are just looking to get heard and are also trying to find the right people to surround themselves with. They need to find people who will be supportive of what they are trying to do and help them accomplish their goals. How did you figure out how to get management and build a great team?
Today I have a great team. When I started – not to speak ill of anyone – but it just wasn’t the right team for me at all. When everything in your life changes all at once, you gravitate towards people you think you can trust. You don’t know necessarily that they are the right people, because you have no basis for comparison. You don’t know if you have the right lawyer or if you have signed the right deal. You try to find someone you trust and that someone else has trusted before and hope for the best. I ended up finding the right team through making mistakes. I knew they were the right team, because I had gone through some less-than-ideal experiences.
I was definitely looking for people who were as dedicated as I was and who wanted it as much as I wanted it. The people who work with me now definitely want it as much as I do, if not more.
You definitely have a good bunch of people around you now.
So, “Candle” became a Top 30 single. What happened from there? When did the band unwind?
We had some success, which was good. But then the label got a new president in the middle of our radio run. I think it was kind of doomed after that. I didn’t realize it was happening at the time, but the band just slowly fell apart. And because I was in a band and not a solo artist, I couldn’t just pick up and keep going no matter what hit me. When money stopped coming, the other people in the band started to get less interested.
In my opinion, how a band handles being dropped from a label is one of the biggest indicators of whether or not its members are “lifers” or not. It’s easy to be a musician when you’re on a label and have tour support. But the bands that stick it out when there is no label anymore and put real energy into going a new direction are the ones that last for a long time.
Yeah. And my brain went immediately to finding a new direction. I thought there was no chance it could be over until I said it was over. I think the other band members were ready for a different phase in their lives. I think that showed that my gut instinct on them at the beginning was correct. But I chose to bring them with me anyway because I just really wanted someone to go along with me for the ride.
As a solo artist, you released the single “Push Rewind,” which is on a new record that is out now. And you’re selling 15,000 singles per week. I think for most people, it must be difficult to understand what your life is actually like, because they’re not following you every step of the way, aside from reading some interviews and other press about the work you’re doing now. Can you describe your day-to-day?
There isn’t a lot of consistency. I’d say four days per week at least I’m flying somewhere. And they are all early flights, so it’s usually a 4 a.m. wake-up call in whatever time zone I am in. If I’m not flying, I’m driving to get somewhere. I have been doing a lot of morning radio shows and singing at different events. I recently sang the National Anthem at the Denver Nuggets/Lakers game, which was really cool. I’m getting to meet a lot of the radio programmers and the people who listen and win contests. And I perform for them in radio station lounges. My day usually ends with a dinner meeting with someone. And hopefully I make it to sleep by midnight to get up early again.
Lately, it’s been a lot of that, which is incredibly taxing on your body. But once you get on stage or to the place you’re going to perform, you’re just so flattered that people want to play your song and talk about your music.
You’re obviously someone who is really excited to get the opportunity to do what you do. But how do you handle being on a flight four days per week and staying healthy and not feeling overwhelmed?
I’ve always been healthy and in shape, and I feel like I’ve been preparing for this my whole life. I knew it was going to take this much to be where I am. No matter what I have done in my life – whether going to school or working a regular job – I have always felt like I could do more. I think a lot of people don’t realize how much they could actually do if they really wanted to and put their mind to it. You just keep setting the bar higher. As long as you stay healthy and positive, you can’t be brought down.
There are a lot of people out there just trying to get a band going who would love the benefit of your experience. From a business and marketing perspective, what are some of the biggest mistakes you feel you made when you were just starting out? Are there lessons you wished you’d learned earlier in life?
I believe that a lot of things that happened to me were probably just fated to happen. I had no control over them. For example, I couldn’t really avoid losing the support of a label because that label got a new president. I guess I could’ve signed with a different label, but I went with that label initially because the people there really believed in me. The guy who signed me put a lot of work into me. The support was just taken away half-way through the process.
I think the biggest mistake I made early on was trusting a friend to get me a lawyer who ended up getting me a bad deal. I eventually found a lawyer who helped me correct that mistake, but at first it was a really shady deal. I think there are always those people out there who you think you trust, but are actually trying to pull the wool over your eyes and take advantage of you, because they know you are new to the business.
One of the first phone calls I got from a label was from an A&R guy. We didn’t have a manager at the time, and he segued into being our manager. In retrospect, he walked into the perfect situation, because he already had a band that was signed and had a buzz. And because I felt I could trust him, he started managing my old band. I realized later that he had never managed a band before and really didn’t end up adding a lot to the table; he just walked into something that was already set up. And when you’re building a team, you really want to bring on people who can add something that no one else is adding.
However, all these mistakes really planted the seeds for the future.
And I imagine through that process, you learn that you have to be more discerning and need to get to know more people within the music industry. What was your process for vetting your current team and finding solid partners?
I had a lot of meetings set up in August 2011. After The White Tie Affair broke up, I actually took a lot of time off. I had been working like I am working now for quite a few years. And I got something back from it, but I really didn’t feel like I had really achieved anything. I met with some managers and other people here and there, because I knew my entire team was really not working. But I just didn’t feel a spark with any of the people I met.
I was living in San Diego at the time and was driving up to L.A. to do some surfing. I got a call from my business manager at the time, and he asked if I was interested in a manager. He said he had a guy who was interested in talking to me. The fact that he sought me out really appealed to me. He had talked to a friend of mine who I had been co-writing songs with and had heard my name. And he looked me up and really liked the songs from The White Tie Affair. Once we met, we immediately clicked. I knew he believed in me and saw what people are starting to see now with my solo project. He saw I had something special in me in just an hour of hanging out together. I had meetings with giant managers and other people set up, but I wanted to go with the guy who understood me and was just as crazy as I am. Because, I realize it’s pretty insane to think you can essentially take over the world.
Well, and I congratulate you on being part of the one-percent of people who get as far as you have. Of course, I guess as an artist, you are always looking to how you can be even better. I firmly believe that Chris Martin of Coldplay might scratch his head and wonder how he can become Bono. I’m not sure who Bono aspires to be. But you’re definitely in the upper echelons.
Thank you. It’s really been an interesting road. When I start to talk about the past, I realize it really has been a while. It’s been six years since I put out that very first song that got all the attention.
A lot can change in six years or even in a week, which you have experienced.
You are surrounded by kids who are fans, many of who want to do what you have done and have their own careers. Do you have any parting words of advice for them?
I’ve always worked hard at what I’ve done. And I know nothing comes immediately or easily. I think if you want something – no matter what it is – you have to just keep working at it. Time will weed out the people who don’t want it enough and make way for the people who do.
Candace Avery is the co-Founder of Unsigned Only, a music competition designed for talented solo artists, bands and singers worldwide not signed to a major label or record company. She got her start in music as a drummer in New Orleans. After studying percussion at the Berklee College of Music, she realized she had a passion for the business side of the industry and began to successfully work with bands around Boston as an independent publicist. After establishing the Boston Music Awards, she was inspired to create a variety of festivals for musicians in the New England area, including Fall Fest and NEMO. In 2002, she started the International Songwriting Competition to allow artists to get their songs heard in an international arena. Now based in Nashville, Candace launched Unsigned Only alongside Jim Morgan in 2011. The competition offers outstanding, talented and unsigned performers the opportunity to be mentored by experienced music executives and artists. This year’s Unsigned Only competition features judges such as Iggy Pop, Chrissie Hynde, Carly Simon, Of Monsters and Men and Cyndi Lauper.
Candace recently talked to me about her experience working with emerging musicians and artists through festivals and competitions and what qualities an artist needs to get noticed by judges. She also shared some advice for musicians that want to succeed in today’s music climate.
How did you get into the music industry?
I started out as a drummer living in New Orleans. Then I moved to Boston to go to Berklee College of Music and study percussion. I was there for two years, but got tired of the struggle and was trying to figure out what I wanted to do and whether or not I wanted to stay in music. At the time, my husband was signed to Epic Records with his band, and I had been doing publicity for them. Once they got signed, everyone in Boston started to want to hire me to do publicity for them.
I did publicity for about a year, then had an idea to do an awards show in Boston. So, I created the Boston Music Awards. It was a red carpet event for artists out of the New England area. I also created an outdoor music festival called Fall Fest, which took place on the Boston Common. I basically just started throwing annual events and eventually sold Fall Fest to Mick’s Radio in Boston and continued doing the Boston Music Awards. On the tenth anniversary of those awards, I created NEMO, which was a music festival and conference. We showcased artists from all over the world. It was basically a mini SXSW for the New England area.
In 2002, I started the International Songwriting Competition, which allows artists to get their songs heard in an international arena. In 2003, I ended up moving to Nashville to focus on the Songwriting Competition, which is currently going into its twelfth year.
Last year, I created a music competition called Unsigned Only. It’s an international music competition designed for solo artists, bands and singers. The focus is on artists that are not signed to a major label or any of its affiliates. The goal is to find that outstanding artist that is the whole package. We want an artist that is great vocally, has great songs and wonderful charisma.
From the various things you’ve described about your past, you’ve been someone who has been a gatekeeper and who has judged the talents of a wide range of artists, whether at the Boston Music Awards, at NEMO, Unsigned Only or through the International Songwriting competition. As someone that has had your unique perspective, can you speak about the contest submission process? What makes a decent submission, above and beyond talent?
It’s interesting, because I would say that most people now really do understand what they need to be submitting. In today’s musical climate, it’s so easy to do a good recording, whether through something like GarageBand or in the studio. We get so much music that’s not professionally produced or recorded. And it is still heaps better than it would have been 10-15 years ago. When it comes to Unsigned Only, people who submit seem to be getting the idea that we’re looking for a really great artist.
With the Songwriting Competition, a lot of people enter because they have written what they deem to be really good songs. They may not be the best performers in the world, but because the focus isn’t on performance, it’s okay to not have a great recording. With all these things, the factor that distinguishes what goes through and what doesn’t is really the talent.
Do you ever judge people based on their websites, Facebook presence, etc.?
No. We don’t even look at that. After naming last year’s Unsigned Only winner – the contest’s first-ever winner – I had a lot of conversations with some of our mentors. Bands and artists used to be judged by how many people came to see them live, how many records they sold. Now it’s segued into how many YouTube views they have and how many “like”s they have on Facebook. It wasn’t even something we considered in our first year. So it has brought up an interesting question: How do you bridge the gap between finding someone who is really talented and trying to get them signed? Someone who is super talented may not have 20 likes on their Facebook page.
And I think that view makes you guys really unique. In this climate, everyone is looking to bet on someone who has already started the race. The majors in particular are looking for someone who has done all his/her own legwork already. They want to acquire a “corporation” rather than to develop something.
Right. They want an already-conceived brand. There’s no doubt about it. It really hit me full in the face after last year’s competition when I spoke with all the mentors. They said they loved the girl who won, but that she needed to build up her Facebook views. And I thought it seemed ridiculous. She’s talented, beautiful and writes great songs that are totally in the pocket. Why wouldn’t someone take a shot on her? They just want something that is a slam dunk. And if someone has half a million views on YouTube, there’s already a built-in audience to sell records to.
I did research-oriented A&R work. And what I discovered is that there is no better predictor of future ticket sales than current sales, whether that is tickets, merch, etc. The biggest indicator of a successful business in the future is, “What is the business doing currently?” And I think that’s created a lot of disposable acts.
And which would you rather sign? Would you rather sign an artist who is a Bob-Dylan-grade genius, or someone who is a pop artist with 500 million views who may not be nearly as talented? It’s a tough question to answer.
On the one hand, I’d love to be affiliated with the next Bob Dylan. But on the other hand, I’d love to be collecting on performance fees for Gangnam Style and keeping my family fed. I hear you, and I do miss true artistry and try to do what I can to help people pursuing it.
It’s totally understandable, especially in today’s economic climate within the music industry. It’s even harder now than ever before for an artist to get signed.
So, how does an artist go about submitting to Unsigned Only?
It’s really easy. They can submit online or through the mail. All they have to do is send in a recording and an entry form. All the information is on our website. Our deadline for this year is March 14. We have 10 categories. When someone enters, they select a category for their song. They can also submit multiple songs. We have a first and second place winner in each category and one grand prize winner.
What makes Unsigned Only really different from any other competition is that the grand prize winner actually gets mentored by a group of record company executives. That means they can meet with them in person, through Skype or on the phone. Last year’s winner ended up doing a showcase for Monte Lipman in Los Angeles at Universal. Direct mentoring is something that most up-and-coming artists won’t realistically have the chance to do. If you go to our website, on our home page, there’s a list of this year’s mentors. That’s really what distinguishes this competition.
Do you think there is a lot of value for these up-and-coming artists in being mentored by people at companies who are looking to acquire artists that have already built up their brands? In other words, do you think the head of A&R at Universal would know something about how to hustle another 20-50 people to an artist’s next gig?
Probably not the really-high-up executives, but I think the A&R reps on the street probably understand that concept. But the truth is they’re all still looking for artists to sign. They’re going to sign X amount of artists every year. Even if an artist doesn’t get signed out of Unsigned Only, the experience they get being mentored by these executives could potentially help their career in the future and help form their career. Lara Johnston, last year’s grand prize winner has told us over and over again how invaluable her experience has been. And no, she hasn’t been signed yet by any of these mentors. But that doesn’t mean it won’t happen in the future. She’s still going through the process.
And even if she doesn’t get signed, just getting advice from people at this level who have been doing this for years and years is invaluable. They are the people who are influential in the business.
No question. They are clearly people who have been involved in the business for a long time. There’s definitely a value to getting the perspectives of people inside record companies. But I find that so much of what we end up reading and understanding about is macro-level problems that artists in the public eye have, rather than the hustle and getting more people to shows. I find it interesting that the “record deal” is still the be-all, end-all for a lot of people.
Well, I think that is because it accomplishes what they can’t accomplish for themselves. Like I said earlier, I think there’s still this allure to the record deal; people want to get signed and want to become big and be successful in the music industry. It’s very difficult to do that without a label’s assistance. The good news is there are artists out there who can forge a path for themselves and make a living because of the Internet. But there are very few artists that can make it to a very high level without the assistance of a label. Still, I think most people still have that dream, and there are still people signing people. But it’s pretty few and far between. It’s also crazy how many talented artists there are out there. There are people who deserve to get signed but just don’t.
And is there any advice you would give to artists trying to succeed in the current climate?
You need to follow your passion, write great songs and keep at it. Another big piece of advice that I would have even given 20 years ago is, “Know the business.” Of course, I think it depends on why you’re playing music. If you’re doing it just for your own satisfaction, then just love what you’re doing. If you’re doing it to become a successful artist selling records, then figure out what it is you need to do to accomplish that while still maintaining your musical integrity.
As a musician, you have to love what you do, because it’s such a hard road. If you really love music and can’t conceive of doing anything else, then that is exactly what you should be doing.
I totally agree with that. I have told musicians that say they just want to be famous that they are probably better off eating bugs on Fear Factor.
Yes. That’s one of the reasons I stopped being a drummer. I loved being a drummer and playing drums, but I was tired of struggling. I realized that I was better suited to do something else. I could conceive of being on the business side of the music industry. But I know of many musicians that just cannot imagine doing anything else but playing music. So, they have to be musicians. It’s a tough life, and you just really have to have such a passion for it.
When I look back on my time in A&R, I realize that the defining factor for which artists were successful was their belief that they could walk through walls. That’s why I think the business often favors youth, because it is easier to maintain that belief when you have not experienced a long string of failures.
That’s an interesting perspective, and I think you’re right. You have to be able to persevere and ride that roller coaster. And when you’re young, riding the roller coaster is much easier.
To learn more about Candace Avery and the Unsigned Only competition, visit the Unsigned Only website. The deadline for this year’s contest is March 14, 2013.
Jonas Goldstein is a certified public accountant (CPA) and a business manager with over 20 years of experience in the music industry. A lifelong music fan, he got his start in the music business when he was a student at Syracuse University and was controller of the schools entertainment organization. When he graduated, he accepted a position with the entertainment-focused accounting firm Prager and Fenton as an assistant, eventually working his way up to tour accountant, then band and artist business manager. After 13 years with the company, he branched out on his own and launched JLG Business Management. During his career as a business manager, he has handled tours for bands and artists in all different genres, including The Bee Gees, Clint Black, Ben Folds, KISS and ACDC in North America, Japan, Australia and all over the world.
I had the opportunity to talk to Jonas about his experience in the music industry and the many important roles of a business manager. He also shared some tips on how bands just starting out can handle the fine points of their own business management prior to having the budget to hire a professional.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, Jonas. How did you get into the music business?
I’m a CPA and a business manager in the music industry, and I have over 20 years of experience. I got the music bug when I was in college at Syracuse University. I was in charge of the finances for the entertainment organization there.
When I graduated, I was pretty much looking for firms that specialized in entertainment. This company Prager and Fenton originally hired me, and I ended up being there for 13 years. I started out with them as an assistant, then worked my way up as a tour accountant and then a business manager with them. While I was there, I did five tours for ACDC and worked with KISS, Clint Black and The Bee Gees. As a business manager, I worked with Ben Folds and Kid Rock for a while. I managed people in rock, jazz and all different genres.
I’m very diverse in my musical taste, and I enjoy it when my clientele is all across the board. It makes everything more fun.
I remember meeting you probably 15 or 16 years ago. And you were introduced to me as a business manager, but I really didn’t know the difference between a regular manager and a business manager. I would imagine that’s a pretty common mistake. What exactly us the role of a business manager?
The business manager is an accountant and then some. I’m a CPA. There are a lot of business managers out there who are not licensed, but I really feel that a business manager should be. I started out with ACDC. In addition to filing tax returns and all the other basic things an accountant might do for a band, they also set up things related to tours. We evaluate the tours, make up budgets for them, set up insurance programs, cut deals with buses, trucks and sound and light companies. We also often do projections on touring budgets for record companies.
And these are all the nuts and bolts elements that are so important, without which the whole machine would break down. Yet a lot of bands wouldn’t even think about all this.
Yes. It’s a very all-encompassing job. It’s not just being an accountant; we’re the liaison for almost everything. We also have to manage costs between management and the business management, because the business manager actually works for the band exclusively. And, of course, the different tasks for which I am responsible can also vary significantly band to band.
And, you told me that you usually work for percentages or a monthly retainer, meaning you’re not likely to work with artists just starting out that have a very small budget, because they’re not bringing in a lot of income yet. What is your criteria for working with a band?
From my perspective, a lot of it is about passion. There are some bands I just love personally and want to see them succeed, even if they are baby bands. Sometimes they’ll experience restructuring or will be in political turmoil, and they will find themselves structuring. I need to feel passionate and really gung ho about all the bands I work with, so I’ll have the energy and will be able to fight for them as long as I can. I don’t cut deals with record companies personally, but I will often look at the contracts and give advice as they grow.
Obviously, your ideal client is someone you are passionate about. But what advice would you give these types of bands about how to make sure their books are in order and everything is in place from a business perspective before they are able to hire someone like you?
The start of it is to set up an LLC or a Sub S Corporation, depending on the situation of the band. Say the band lives in Atlanta. Then, we can set up the LLC in Georgia. If everyone lives there, all the income can flow through that point, and taxes can be filed in the same state. If you have a band that is scattered all over the place with someone in Nashville or Austin and another person in Seattle, they might want to look at other options. But the first thing they need to look at is where they are all located.
However, with bands that are located overseas, there’s another option for setting up an LLC or a Sub S Corporation: Delaware. Younger bands outside the U.S. can set up a U.S. entity as a Delaware Corporation. In general, however, as a business manager I always examine which type of company would best suit the band right from the get-go.
And why is Delaware such a go-to state for LLCs, etc.?
With Delaware, there are no personal taxes. What you do is pay a monthly fee rather than setting up a very complicated tax system. It comes out to about $250 per year as opposed to dealing with another state, where it could cost you much more.
And I’ve had some disagreements about this next point. But if you’re a multi-state band, you have a band that tours all over. Some states are more aggressive than others about getting your taxes. When you tour around, a lot of the places you play have very strict regulations. So, you need to closely follow budgets and file them to reduce your taxes. For example, in Wisconsin, they’re going to take six percent out of your wage. In Massachusetts, they take $450-$600. In California, they take seven percent. In Minnesota, they take two percent. Of course, the list of tax laws goes on and on.
I’ve definitely had discussions with other business managers who don’t believe you necessarily have to file in every state. For example, states like New York and New Jersey don’t take any money out for taxes on tours at all. Connecticut does. But you can file a budget to these people, and your rates will come down. I usually take the stance that as an artist or band, you should file whenever you appear in a certain state, just for your own protection.
Based on what you know about accounting, what kind of bookkeeping practices do you suggest bands just starting out follow to ensure they stay organized?
For example, I advise young bands to avoid filing an LLC in New York, because that state has very strict policies. It costs $2,000 – $2,500 up front to set up the LLC, and and then you have to advertise your LLC formation in a law journal for six weeks.
For New York-based young bands, what I usually do is file a Sub S election, which is a lot cheaper. When you’re running your own band and just starting out, $2,000 is a lot of money.
In terms of bookkeeping, I like to keep things really simple. You get a bank account, and then you manage everything on QuickBooks. It’s effective, user friendly and gives you a lot of tools like balance and budget sheets and ways to manage your daily transactions – which are all things you should be doing. You also need to bank reconcile every month to make sure your cash is where it should be.
There’s another package that other business managers use that is very intricate and shall remain nameless. They say the statements look better, but I think it’s too much work and aggravation without training. You can do pretty much anything you need to do as a young band on QuickBooks.
Given that most bands and startups are operating at a loss, is there advice you could give about tax write offs to minimize the impact?
If there’s a loss from your tour, you record a loss, and you don’t pay taxes. For example, let’s say you had a $2,000 loss on your tour that you did in 2011. In 2012, you might have a profit of $5,000. You can take your $2,000 loss and carry it forward, and you’ll end up with $3,000 and won’t have to pay money out the year after either.
Let’s say you have a day job. Can your career as an aspiring musician be a way to pay less taxes overall?
Recording the day job is just a quick W-2. Just be aware of what’s going on and make sure you’re using your business sense. In my experience, in most bands, there’s typically one guy who is a lot savvier when it comes to the business end of things and taxes. That’s the guy you want to put in charge of recording and managing finances. But, musicians beware: the IRS requires you to take a competency test to handle all this on your own if you’re not a CPA or an attorney.
But, some general advice: In the beginning, you want to save as much money as you can. And you want to consult with a business manager as a lawyer. Then, start to build your support team as you start to make more money and see what you can do. But as a musician, you don’t want to get into a situation where you suddenly realize you owe $2,000 in taxes and everything is a disaster.
I’m sure that you agree with me on this next point, Rick. The way to get your band signed and to flourish is to get out there, tour extensively, get a mailing list and then write a record. If you sell 50,000 or 60,000 units, the labels will find you. It’s like when I was working with both moe and Umprhey’s McGee. They were bands that didn’t sell a lot of records, but they toured and played all over. Both had started while they were in college and just expanded.
Of course, every band is different. A commercial success like Katy Perry or someone of that level is going to present a completely different business situation. You don’t really need to tour out, but you have to have somebody to stand by you and help market yourself.
I’m actually really surprised that labels aren’t literally opening up bands’ financial books and deciding whether to sign them or not based on the amount of income coming in and how solvent their company is. It’s definitely a changing eco system in terms of how people are getting acquired by labels, management and publishers.
Out of curiosity, in the work you do with marketing, in the last five years, have you seen a greater understanding by the labels of how technology has changed the music landscape?
Some get it more than others. It’s a different game. And this really goes back to what I was just saying about being surprised that more people at the top aren’t looking at bands’ financial records. In the past, people often complained about the lack of artist development at labels. And it seems like that same challenge still exists today, possibly to an even greater degree. Labels seem to still be looking at the number of albums a band is selling and whether or not the band has a manager, then project the risk they are willing to take, then sign the band. I can’t think of the last time I heard of someone just getting picked based purely on the music alone.
I think labels definitely have a lot more analytics for artists at their disposal now and are starting to actually analyze them. They don’t necessarily move quickly, but that’s typically because they are working within the machine of a much larger company.
And I’ve noticed that what they’re trying to do now – and I think all types of management want to get away from this – is do a 360 deal. They want to take a greater percentage of an artist’s record contract, touring, publishing, merchandising, etc.; they want everything.
And I’ve heard of them going back and trying to put 360 deals in place on existing contracts too.
I know labels are taking initiatives to transition, but I’m unsure as to how effective their efforts have been thus far. And I think ultimately in this technological climate, management is in many cases becoming a lot more powerful and beneficial to artists than labels.
My feeling is that what you should do as an artist if you want to attach yourself to a label is pretty simple: go out there and build a fan base. If it takes you two years, fine. They’ll find you if you start selling a lot of units of your music and sell out at bigger venues either regionally or across the company. It’s a lot of work, commitment and focus, but if bands keep showing they can build a lucrative business for themselves, they can hopefully stop labels from trying to push some of these deals that will ultimately be detrimental to the artist.
To learn more about Jonas Goldstein and the work he does within the music industry, you can visit JLG Business Management on Linkedin. You can also reach out to him directly at jgoldstein311(at)gmail.com.
On my 20-year journey in the music business, I have learned a lot of interesting things. One huge realization I had about the current music industry came to me as I was building this website (and continued as I started to get contacted by musicians that were visiting it). I couldn’t figure out why many people were glossing over all of the foundational work that is usually required to find great help. Why would people be so divorced from all the work that they have to do on their own, all the time they needed to devote to developing their sound and playing shows? Why would they not accept the real character-building shows, the “don’t forget to tip your bartenders and wai…oh you are the bartenders and waitresses” shows? And why would musicians think that an executive was likely to jump in and partner with them when what they had, at least on paper, was a hobby and not a real business?
For some, a light bulb turns on when they come to a realization. I experienced something a bit more substantial.
I was watching something on the Science channel about the planets, and an astronomer was talking about an asteroid hitting the earth. He said, “There has been more money spent on movies about asteroids hitting the earth than money spent on preventing asteroids from hitting the earth.”
Since then I have never looked at media – the field I’ve been in my whole life – in the same way.
Some of the effects the media has on us are well documented, but studies usually focus on questions like “Does violence in media have an impact on violent behavior in real life?” or “Does the media portrayal of rail-thin models and celebrities impact our feelings about our own body image and confidence?” The latter in particular is interesting and more applicable, because almost all studies on the subject point to the reality that people feel bad about themselves when comparing themselves to media ideals and have unrealistic expectations about what a “normal” person should look like. Essentially, people believe that they are supposed to resemble what they see in mass media.
When I thought about this concept, I wondered, could there also be a message in mass media about musicians and their success and does that affect us? It kept occurring to me that the media was minimizing the work that goes in to most musicians’ stories. I decided it was time to do some research myself.
To me, the definitive chronicle of a musician’s story is VH1’s Behind the Music. I decided since that was such a well known representation of how musicians became successful that it was a good idea to look at what was kind of info was being presented there.
I purchased several stop-watches and began to time out the percentages of the show that were devoted to different parts of an artist’s story (removing the commercials, etc). I watched a dozen episodes. It wasn’t hard to get the timing down because Behind the Music falls into a very familiar pattern:
1) Family background. The format is always, “Mom says her musician/superstar was different from other kids or recounts how hard it was growing up in the ‘hood, or how someone in the family was abused, and how these circumstances influenced their drive to be an artist, etc.”
2) Professional Struggle. This segment of the show highlights artists’ first taste of the business, the “struggle,” how they lived on $50 / week, how their choice to do something so unreasonable for a living upset family and friends alike. This phase covers making demos and meeting other musicians and executives. I even counted getting signed as getting part of the struggle, even though the momentum of the show clearly indicates that the record deal is a clear sign that success is around the corner.
3) Success. There is always a moment in Behind the Music where the album comes out, and the artist becomes a huge celebrity by creating a genre changing piece of work or a huge commercial success. And the documentary never looks back after that point. The term “big break” is also used a great deal. Sure, there are some issues, like drug habits, divorces, stress and inner turmoil, but the coverage from this point on is always the artist as a total success, even if there were hills and valleys in their popularity.
Would hearing partial truths affect our expectations and perception of what is fact? Simply put: Yes. Markus Appel and Tobias Richter’s study “Persuasive Effects of Fictional Narratives increase over time” even demonstrated that people believe many of the ancillary details presented in pure fiction, totally devoid of any fact.
For example, when you are watching the show Friends, you don’t believe that Rachel is a real person. You are aware that it’s Jennifer Aniston playing a role on TV, and that her character is named Rachel. But you might come to believe that peripheral information is true. For example, you might believe a waitress in Manhattan can afford a two-bedroom apartment near Central Park. Knowing that, if you are constantly reminded of the overnight success of musicians and never told about the work involved in their process, isn’t there a message here as well?
So, what does reality look like? My favorite example of someone who built their own business in music is the story of Sharon Jones and the Dap Kings, the band’s label Daptone Records and the founder of the band and the label, a guy named Gabe Roth.
Until her 40s, Sharon Jones was a guard at a correctional facility. And I played with Gabe in a band for a few years at NYU. Many years later, he agreed to be interviewed on this site. The words, “So, how does it feel to be this overnight success” started to come out of my mouth, but I caught myself midway through, and we laughed about it. Gabe hadn’t done anything different for 15 years; he just got better at what he did and surrounded himself with better people. And it was a breakthrough moment for me when I realized just how long he had been at it. He had worked at the same thing with a narrow focus for 15 years non-stop and was finally at a point where he was making a good living doing what he loved. Persistence and consistency had won out.
Why aren’t we exposed to stories like this? Simply put, because they aren’t popular news stories. “Man Works for 15 Years and Gets Great Business” is not as compelling as “Justin Bieber puts Video on Internet, Becomes Multi-Millionaire.”
A psychologist at the University of Pennsylvania named Angela Duckworth determined that “stick-to-it-ness” is called “grit,” which she defines as “the perseverance and passion for a long-term goal.” And she discovered that this grit is more important than intelligence or talent as a predictor of outstanding achievement. Individuals high in grit are able to maintain their determination and motivation over long periods of time, despite experiences with failure and adversity.
In his interview with me, “The Self Made Musician,” Gabe (a person I believe has real grit) said something that really stuck with me: “Instead of looking inward and local and trying to create something small that they can build from and concentrating on their craft, [musicians] are shooting for stars. It’s like playing the lottery. It’s fun, and if you win it’s amazing, but it’s not a business plan. You don’t say, ‘Okay, we want to start a business and want $500,000. The first thing we’re going to do is buy $4,000 worth of scratcher tickets.’”
A good business plan for your music is, first and foremost, specific. People always talk about the “next level,” and it drives me absolutely insane. I don’t begrudge people for wanting to advance their careers, but my frustration is when I hear the term “next level,” I know that 95% of the time the person saying it hasn’t clearly defined what they need let alone what they want. It sounds like they’re looking for a Nintendo cheat code.
Vague goals tend not to manifest. If you want to achieve your goals as a musician, you need to get really specific and write out a business plan. It doesn’t matter if you don’t know how to write a business plan or if you believe that it’s only for raising money or that it requires fancy number-crunching graphs. Truthfully, a business plan can start off as simply just visualizing where you want your music to take you in the next six months. Most people never do it. And 90% of the people reading this will probably not do it.
Do you really know what you want and what you need? Try this: Write down a six-month or one-year goal and then work backwards to the present moment. Be mindful that you will need longer-term goals as well, but they need not be as detailed.
Don’t do this because I say so. Do this because several studies, including a study conducted by Palo Alto Software in 2010 that was verified by the University of Oregon Department of Economics states that you are twice as likely to succeed if you finish a business plan.
I can’t write down a plan that will work for every artist, but I can offer a few guidelines if you are devoted to music for life (and not just looking at it as a fun hobby):
- Build a solid business foundation. Figure out how money is made in this industry and how publishing works. Register with ASCAP, BMI or SESAC and SoundExchange. Make sure you have a business entity established and trademark your name.
- Get your marketing materials in order. You’re going to need at least a 4-song recording (and one that requires no apologies), a well-written bio, a logo, a professional photo and a video of you performing live (for an actual crowd). You’ll also need vanity URLs on social networks, a website and to make sure all your digital real estate is interconnected.
- Set yourself up for the long haul. You need to engage in long-term planning if you want to work as a musician. Most “normal” businesses are not in the black for three, to five years, so why should a music business be any different? If you are truly in this for life, you should be investing in your business in a way that ensures you are set up to play and record music and get it to people at a moment’s notice over an extended period of time. This could mean building a home studio and getting a P.A. and a van. The point is, you’re going to have to plan multiple releases over a number of years and be prepared to play countless gigs. And you’re going to need to know how to accomplish this as cheaply and easily as possible. Don’t blow all your money on your first release, expecting it will propel you instantly to financial stability. Plan on truly playing and recording music on an on-going basis.
- Build a community and diversify. The music, the money and “the hang” (who you seek out as collaborators and the other musicians with whom you surround yourself on a regular basis) determines which gigs you should take, even if they divert you from your original work – sideman work, apprenticeships, etc. Remember, even Hendrix was a sideman.
- Think about B2C and B2B. It is also important to consider that everyone is talking about direct-to-fan in the digital age – an obvious, unfiltered Business to Consumer strategy (B2C). As they are building their communities, I’m of the opinion that many fledgling artists should also pursue Business to Business (B2B) relationships with like-minded artists. If you convince one band with a 50-person mailing list in another town that you are worth a damn, you can get your music in front of those people and start to break a new market if you’re willing to do the same promotion for them on a gig trade.
In summary, the confusion and frustration you may be feeling about your music career is just part of the process. It just so happens it’s not part of the process that people really talk about. The media is feeding you a steady stream of crap about who, what and where you should be in your career. Try to tune that out along with the hundreds of burnt-out naysayers you will meet along your journey who tried, failed and now want to talk you out of trying, too. Amputate the people in your life with this cancerous attitude, consume less celebrity media, or at least remember to take it with a grain of salt.
And remember grit and what I hear more than anything else about marketing strategies: “I tried that, and it didn’t work.” No musician succeeds without trying and failing. Try again.
CeCe Sammy is a renowned singer, vocal coach and the co-Founder of the artist management company CCA Entertainment. She got her start in the music business as a pianist and went on to study at the London College of Music, where she received both vocal and piano training. When she was 17, she toured as a backing vocalist with Diana Ross, eventually becoming a member of the United Colours of Sound with vocal coach partner John Modi and celebrity vocal coaches Joshua Alamu, David and Carrie Grant. After learning from a variety of expert mentors, she transitioned naturally into her role as a vocal coach. She has worked with major acts from the United Kingdom, including Charlotte Church, S Club, Will Young and Leona Lewis. She has also recorded several theme tunes for ITV, Channel 4 and Sky Sports in the UK and has appeared on television shows such as Pop Idol as a vocal coach and judge. In 2010, she relocated to Los Angeles and founded CCA Entertainment with legendary artist manager Frank DiLeo.
I spoke with CeCe recently about her career as a singer, vocal coach and music entrepreneur and what she has learned from her many experiences in the industry. She also shared some tips for singers that want to protect and improve their voices and find professional success.
Thanks so much for taking the time to chat, CeCe. How did you get into the music business, and what drove you to become a manager and vocal coach?
I trained as a classical pianist. Funnily enough, I loved and adored Liberace because of his wonderful showmanship. I also sang a lot. When I was 17, I was asked to be a backing vocalist for Dina Ross, which was an absolutely amazing experience. It was what really pushed me into the industry. Then I was trained how to be a vocal coach and moved into that thanks to great mentors.
I ended up working with a lot of big artists, record labels and music companies: Will Young; Simon Fuller; Simon Cowell; Pop Idol (as a vocal coach) and a bunch of other television shows as a judge and vocal coach. Vocal coaching is really important. And as a coach, I teach both vocal techniques and performance techniques. Most vocal coaches choose one of those things. But I bring together technique and actual performance.
How did you manage to transition from working with Diana Ross into being a vocal coach?
I moved very naturally from singing to vocal coaching. The people who got me into the job with Diana Ross were vocal coaches and just started teaching me all the aspects involved with being a vocal coach. I really studied and learned, then went into being a coach myself. And a lot of the people who came to see me wanted to work with me constantly, which was very exciting.
I know that you’re also an excellent self-promoter. What do you think you did right as a musician and as a music business person that brought you all these exciting opportunities in television and working with great artists?
First of all, I listened to everyone, instead of just always pushing my own opinions. I listened to what other people had to say constantly. I would also record myself when I would sing and even when I would teach, then look back at what I recorded to see how I was really coming across to people.
Basically, I studied diligently, learned everything I could about my craft and then finally, had the confidence to dream and achieve.
A lot of people are out there who can’t necessarily afford a vocal coach. Can you give some simple tips and best practices that people should be following in order to maintain their voice?
There are a lot of basic things most people already know to do, like practice regularly, or breathe properly. For example, when you speak, as I am now, you’re using absolutely everything. You’re naturally breathing in, naturally exhaling and the air is naturally flowing out. When you’re singing, it should be the same thing. It’s not a case of, “I’m about to sing, so I’m going to change how I naturally breathe.”
I think something else really critical and not necessarily obvious is that you need to audition yourself for every genre. You might want to sing rock music, but maybe rock does not fit with your voice. You should try every style you can and not get too pigeonholed. Put your eggs in different baskets, as you never know where you’re going to end up. Look at me – I went from Liberace, to Diana Ross, to Pop Idol/X Factor! As part of this, you should be asking people around you for feedback. You could ask your parents, the neighbors or people at your church or at school. Just try everything and be bold enough to ask people for their opinions.
As someone who has worked on American Idol-type shows overseas, what did you find, performance wise, that separated those that made it through to the end from those you let go early in the competition?
In my opinion, being good is just really just about artists not trying hard to do what has not been tried before. For instance, singers need to listen to the lyrics to a song and convey what those lyrics mean to them personally through their performance, so the audience can feel that. I always tell people it’s about studying, learning and dreaming. You need to take a look at what others have done before, learn from that and then find your way.
And can you give an example of a singer who has done that very well?
One example I can give is Leona Lewis. I have worked with her and knew her before she became famous. She got in touch with me and did not have a lot of money. She and her dad approached me, because they knew me from TV. They were asking questions about what she should do and what she should focus on. I gave her very honest feedback, and she studied, learned and kept dreaming, “I want to be a singer.” She then auditioned to get onto X-Factor and got on the show and won. And she became known throughout the world.
How did that happen? I believe it was because she moved her career forward in small steps, trying one thing, then the next, then the next. However, for everyone out there, it really is about practicing constantly. 90 percent of it is studying, and 10 percent of it is putting it out there. But everything is hard work. And it’s putting in the hard work that is important.
And can you share anything about the best methods for maintaining and preserving your voice?
Singing is like being an athlete. An athlete has people who are constantly working with them – in football, tennis, etc. Singing is the same. Having a vocal teacher is very important. And of course, I can only talk about it from the perspective of how I work with my clients, but you constantly have to look at the technique and the performance. Because, when you get up to perform and add the singing on top of the performance, sometimes everything can go out the window.
For example, there are different singing techniques you have to use whether you’re going into the studio or going out on tour, or whether you’re singing in front of 20 people or 20,000 people. There is troubleshooting involved with navigating all of these different things.
And what are some of the most common technical mistakes you run into when you work with people?
There are a few common mistakes I see.
- People will be singing a song and they’ve never actually stopped to listen to what the lyrics are really saying.
- Some people forget they need to not only sing, but also conserve breath. You need to take a breath at the right point, so you’re not pushing your voice.
- People will sing so loudly – and you can’t sing too quietly either, of course – that they can’t take the dynamics any higher.
You really must have control over dynamics and proper breathing. But you also have to be able to express real feeling and an understanding of the lyrics, because you need to really tell a story through your singing.
I’ve studied a little bit with New York City-based vocal coaches, like Melissa Cross and Don Lawrence. Both of them described the sound coming from above your mouth, or from the mask of your face. Do you advise a direction people should sing towards?
In your face, you have different places you want the sound to bounce off of, so singing towards a specific direction is definitely important. But there are also other subtle elements. For instance, you want to feel like your feet are planted firmly on the ground, whether you’re sitting or standing. And you want the music to be moving inside everything, and your singing to be as natural as if you are speaking. Singing well is about tying many different ideas together.
As a vocal coach, I know that just playing a piano for someone and having them stand there and sing “la la la” is not teaching them to sing. That’s the old-fashioned way. I’m also not into teaching people to sing karaoke or to imitate someone’s voice. It’s about identifying a sound for you.
What is the biggest obstacle people come up against when they come to you and their pitch is slightly off. Is this about practice, or are there techniques they can use?
A lot of that is about really listening and practicing to get a feel for where the music needs to sit in your voice. But again, you have to record what you’re doing when you’re practicing and then go back and listen to find out where something went wrong if you want to understand where the pitch is off.
And are there any other tips you’d like to share with singers?
Well, here are 5 tips I think are probably the most important of all for singers:
- Audition Your Singing Teacher. Just because someone can sing, doesn’t mean they know how to teach you how to sing. Find out whether what they have to offer is what you need – for example, if you want to do musical theatre, you need someone who truly understands what that type of voice needs.
- Do Your Research. Great singers are always inspired by other great singers. Find out who the singers you like favored and then who they liked and so on. For example, Christina Aguilera loved Aretha Franklin. Aretha Franklin loved gospel singer Mahalia Jackson. You gain so much as a singer by listening.
- Treat Your Voice Well. Warming up is so crucial. Your vocal cords are like muscles that need to be treated with care. A runner would never just get out onto the field and start running.
- Learn Good Technique. The technique I teach and emphasize is all about encouraging you to sing in the same place that you speak, so it’s not forcing you to do something that’s unnatural for your voice.
- Do everything in moderation. It’s not that you can’t ever have a glass of wine, but drink alcohol in moderation. With smoking, again, I think you have to know your own voice. For some singers, it’s a definite no-no; others can have a cigarette here and there, and their voice is fine. One thing to do a lot of, however, is drink water!
To learn more about CeCe and the work she does with artists, please visit the CCA Entertainment website.
Danny Barnes is a banjo player and a songwriter who has been a working musician for over 30 years. Widely known as one of the world’s most innovative and versatile artists, he mixes non-traditional music like rock fusion and jazz with electronic percussion instruments, still rooted in the traditional bluegrass, country and folk music for which his instrument is known. A lifelong music “fanatic” in every sense of the word, he decided he would make a career in music at 10, when, deeply inspired by the many records his parents played at home, he began to diligently study his craft. Known for his positive and refreshingly-honest attitude towards being an artist in the modern music industry, he continues to dedicate himself to growth and further innovating his instrument by learning from and collaborating world-renowned master musicians, including Bela Fleck, Lyle Lovett, Nickel Creek, John Popper, Chuck Leavell and Dave Matthews. He puts out music through ATO Records.
I had the pleasure of talking to Danny about his long career in the music business and his views on the modern music climate. He also shared some advice for artists that want to successfully build their lives around music and become truly great at their craft.
Thanks for taking some time to chat, Danny. How did you get started in the music business?
When I was about 10 or 11, it just became clear to me that music was what I wanted to do. I’ve been pretty focused on it ever since then, and I just turned 50. I’m still working on it, still taking lessons, researching and developing as an artist. But it all got started officially when I was a little kid.
My parents were music fans and played a lot of records around the house. And my brothers were really into music, too. Somehow I got it into my head that music was what was most important. And that’s what I’ve continued to believe for about 40 years.
Was there a particular point where you discovered you would be able to do it for a living vs. just as a hobby?
I think I pretty much knew it from the beginning. It was just a matter of figuring out how to do it. At first, it was definitely just that dream of wanting to be a musician. But I was wired to be a real music person. I really enjoyed records and going to shows, so one of the things that has always driven my attention and interest in music is wanting to make things that I would like to hear. I’ve been doing that since I was a kid, and that’s still the force that drives me: I like records and buy records, and want to make things that would interest me as a music fan. I haven’t put the focus on the economic part of it. I’ve been spending most of my time learning how to be great, which involves studying the work of the masters.
I grew up in a really small town. And in this small town, there was a guy who fixed hot rods. He had a little garage and would just work on hot rods to get really good at it. He decided that was what he wanted to do and just adjusted his life so he could do it. Guys like that became role models for me. They could be motorcycle racers, bass fisherman or guys who fixed hot rods. But they were all guys who were into something and figured out a way to do it at any cost.
What I think is fundamentally important for me and my own expression is just being a music fan and starting from that premise. I am just really driven by music and believe in the power of music and continue to be curious to learn about all its aspects.
Well and “fan” is derived from “fanatic,” so I think you’re on the right track there.
It’s interesting that you describe deciding to do music full time as an evolutionary process. I think a lot of people have this idea that you just up and decide to be a musician, then stop everything, quit your day job and spend a lot of time, energy and money on becoming a musician. I’m always trying to preach to people that it’s about baby steps – slowing migrating the different areas of your life towards music.
You’re a guy who has been playing music for a living for decades. What do you think you’ve done right that has allowed you to make a career out of playing music?
I made a lot of mistakes, because I didn’t know about things like contract law and how other people in the industry think. And I continue to make mistakes.
What keeps me going is, I pretty much knew what I wanted to do when I was a kid. I’ve gone through small periods of time when I’ve questioned what I’m doing, when I’ve thought about doing something like computer programming, being a merchant marine or starting a small business. But basically, I’ve known for a long time what I wanted to do. I think having that conviction solves a lot of problems. The French have that term “raison d’etre:” “reason to be.” I think if you know what that “raison d’etre” is for you, everything becomes a lot easier. If something crops up, you can ask yourself if it is contributing to you career and helping you get stronger, or if it’s dragging you down.
Living a really simple lifestyle and not being in a lot of debt has also been really good. When I was in college, I was really broke. And I learned how to do things without spending a lot of money and being able to entertain myself and find happiness without a lot of dough. Because I had that skill, when things got rough, something didn’t come through or I’ve had to take some time to learn something in order to go on, I wasn’t stressed out of my brain trying work three or four different jobs to get me through, then feeling resentful towards my passion for music for not providing me with the opportunity to make money. I can’t necessarily recommend keeping your life simple, even though that’s what has worked for me, because a lot of people aren’t really interested in that as an answer; it involves giving things up.
As an example, my pickup truck is worth about 300 dollars. But I have some really nice instruments. I’m more interested in buying the nice preamp I want than I am in buying a nice car. And I travel a lot in my work, so I’m not really interested in going to the Bahamas on a vacation. I just really want to work. Not getting worked up about money has allowed me to stay creative, because I don’t have a lot of economic baggage. I’m not even aware of this in my own life, but I do see other people struggle as they move through their story arc. Sometimes they seem to get bogged down in money, and it diverts attention from creating art.
So, there are really two things that have helped me continue to stick around and play music: being really clear about what I wanted to do; not being in a lot of debt.
You’re a guy who has put out records through ATO, and of course, you’ve worked closely with a lot of great artists like Dave Matthews. How did you fall in with musicians of this caliber?
I just practiced my ass off. I’ve worked so hard. My thinking was that you have to strive to be absolutely great at something. I think a lot of times, it’s possible to get fixated on getting your promo shots together, putting together a website, getting all your materials together on going through the motions of the mechanics of creating the illusion that you’re making music. But then when you sit down to play, there isn’t anything that good coming out. Granted, there are a lot of people on TV that do that and are huge celebrities. But there isn’t that much happening with their music. That confuses people.
Well, and I want to ask you about that. You strike me as a very grounded man, which leads me to believe that mass media does not have a big effect on your life. What I’ve found as I get older and work with younger people is that when people are coming up with goals and asking me what I can do for them, they will think something along the lines of, “How can you make me the next Justin Bieber?” And TMZ or VH1’s Behind the Music devote three minutes to the struggle of becoming a musician and 20 minutes or the rest of the hour to the problems of fame. Do you think the slanted view mass media presents of what it means to be a musician is a problem?
Yes. I think so. It’s kind of like camping: There are people who live in the woods and people who camp. Camping is cool, but if you are trying to live in the woods and there are campers basically coming into your yard, it’s kind of a hassle.
What I figured out when I was a little kid in the early ‘70s and late ‘60s was the concept of greatness. I realized that the goal is to try to be great at something, whether that be mixing, playing the trombone, writing songs or anything. You need to be great at it. I don’t think I’m there yet. I’m still working on it and trying to get there.
It’s possible to mimic things closely. We can find someone down at the bus stop, get them a makeover, auto-tune them and make them look and sound a lot like a guy on TV. I think that’s distracting. The response that creative people should have to stimuli is to make something. Imitating somebody is not making something. I’m not saying you shouldn’t gather inspiration from people. But our response to being inspired should be to create something ourselves.
It’s so easy to get confused and distracted by the mechanizations of this mass group of people – musicians – and get lost in what they’re doing.
I am inspired by the fact that you’ve made a pretty amazing name for yourself and are also putting out the kind of records you want.
I know you’ve been really focused on becoming a great player. But what role has networking played in your career?
I’m just horrible at networking, to be honest. I’ve never been able to make it work. That’s just not in my repertoire. And I don’t respond to it very well either. I have my friends that are my friends. And some of my friends are very powerful guys in the music business. And some are janitors at nightclubs or bus drivers.
My fans reflect that, too. I’m pretty esoteric. You have to already know about my music to be aware of it. My fans know about a lot of different kinds of music and are part of a small group of people that tend to be pretty diverse, interested and interesting. I look at my fans as just more people I know and an extension of my friends.
I think people put too much emphasis on networking. And people who are really successful at networking can be confusing to other musicians. They might think, “Here’s a guy that had a million downloads and has a ton of followers on Twitter.” And while it’s true that anything can happen to anybody, a different person might not get the same results.
I really appreciate you being honest and really speaking from your experience. What advice would you have given yourself when you were just starting out?
I would say, “Keep practicing; keep working.” Because, working on your craft is the thing that’s so easy to get distracted from doing. But if you keep working, developing, growing, learning, researching, editing, writing and making, you will become a real musician. The way I look at it, making $1 million off singing someone else’s song doesn’t make me a musician. What makes me a musician is continuing to grow and to have a creative response to things, coming up with new contexts and configurations and structures. That’s definitely what I’ve done from the beginning. I don’t even know why I knew to do that. It’s just what I was interested in. I was always interested in learning, so I learned. I was interested in developing combinations of sounds that were not on other people’s records, because it interested me. In a way, it’s the same theory behind Immanuel Kant’s philosophy: How could the universe be any other way than the way that it is now? It has to be this way. There was just no other way for it to be for me.
I would also tell myself to hang in there and keep at it, even when I come across distractions. It’s easy for someone to say, “If only I get this boob job, I will get noticed and it will help my career,” or “I need to move to this city,” or “I really need to get my EPK together.” And in the meantime, that person can’t even read music. And it’s not that reading music is always necessary, but it’s easy to get distracted from actually getting better at playing music with all that’s going on out there.
I’ve always considered myself to be the postman and not the mail. I’m just freaked out about music, because it is so amazing. I’m not saying, “Look at me!” I’m saying, “Hey! Music is really awesome. Look at all the things you can do with it! I’m going to try to do something different here.” And I may fall on my ass. In fact, I probably will. But at least I am trying to make something that’s my own and trying to give something back.
I’m also not a good imitator. I’ve tried to play like other people, but I’m just not very good at it. I am good at thinking up ideas, though and at coming up with songs, developing a concept. I can put an idea together, do a four-album story arc and put it all together with motifs that relate across the narrative.
Another thing I’ve realized is, for me music is how I learn about the world. I put together these records and work on them really hard, and then I get to learn things through that process. For example, music is why I’m talking to you and getting to know you. Without it, I wouldn’t be having this experience. And when I go on the road, I may get on an airplane and fly to LaGuardia, then rent a car or get on the subway and head down the Village to play a show. I wouldn’t have done any of that if not for music. Music is why I get to do everything I do and how I experience my entire life. It’s the way I relate to the world.
You’re obviously a big proponent of shedding – practice, practice, practice. What about learning through collaboration?
Absolutely. I’ve learned so much from not being afraid to be the worst guy in the band, finding masters close to where I live to study, observe and learn what they do. I’ve learned a lot from my teachers and those I’ve played music with. I feel very blessed in that regard.
I remember one time I was taking a lesson from an orchestration teacher. I was trying to learn how to write things for orchestra and creating arrangements. I was talking to him about counterpoint and about creating melody and harmony. He was using a No. 1 Pencil. And I never thought to use it before. But it set me free. A No. 1 Pencil writes darker, so in clubs where the lighting isn’t so great, you can see what you’ve written down better. And it also erases better. It was a silly thing, but it ended up being so important.
I’ve learned so much just from even observing how people tune or take their guitar out of the case, how they sit. There’s a lot to it. You learn a lot from hanging around other people and observing them. Language is often limited. There is all kinds of stuff going on with music that cannot be communicated verbally. You can learn so much about vibe, posture and attitude just from watching really great players play. And if you can take lessons from people, you should do it. I still take lessons from people, because it’s so great to learn.
Everything is a learning experience. I think about the concept of a stand light: So many times, I’ve gone out and played a gig without one, and I realize halfway through I can’t see anything. Or even just something like using clothespins to prevent music from blowing away can totally change your experience.
You posted a blog entry on your website about your experiences that people really responded to. What made you decide to write the article about being a musician? Were you getting asked about it a lot?
I really didn’t think anyone would ever look at it, because I feel like not many people know about my work.
The media goes through cycles where a politician will be part of a scandal. And all of a sudden, everyone is talking about it, even though it has nothing to do with them. And then there will be an ABC Afterschool Special-type thing about the topic, even though it has no real bearing on anyone’s life. For example, what Brad Pitt said to Angelina Jolie last week really has no meaning to me personally. But it will become a huge topic that is everywhere. Next week, it will be something else or someone else.
When you wrote it, were you feeling that the DIY music business had become like Brangelina?
There were just a lot of people complaining about things. People were loving and reposting the articles on Facebook about how awful it is to be a musician, how difficult and screwed up everything is. But I wanted to write something that was encouraging. I just wanted to give a positive response. I wanted to acknowledge the reality, but then encourage people to build something. It doesn’t matter what we think about it or how we got here. The horse is going that way, so let’s turn around in the saddle and go that way.
I just saw this bumper sticker the other day that said, “Driver carries no cash. He’s a musician.” I’m not really impressed by that. There’s this whole idea going around about how it’s so difficult to be a musician. But the richest people I know are musicians. They are much richer than the stockbrokers, brain surgeons and lobbyists I know. That may be my own skewed perspective, because I’m in music. But so many times, reality is not in the metanarrative. When I wrote that piece, I wanted to present my own experience in a humble way. I didn’t really expect it to be received very well. A lot of times, if you have something to say that is not a sound bite, people label you as a kook. No one really cares if it’s not in the sound bite.
The sound bite is, “It’s horrible being a musician. Digital this, sales are down that, it all sucks.” You read that over and over again. And you have to ask yourself if it’s real. My friends are in music and making awesome records, putting their kids through college. I don’t get it. I just wanted to make a positive statement and give struggling musicians some suggestions based on my own experience and the experiences of people around me about things they can try that will stop them from getting bogged down. I’m so far down that the underground seems commercial to me, so I really didn’t think anyone would pay attention. I was trying to be honest and uplifting and provide information, and it felt great that a lot of artists – and not even just those in music – read what I wrote and got some benefit out of it.
Mike Jackson is an independent music supervisor. He got his start in the music industry in high school as a guitarist and was soon encouraged to attend Full Sail University, where he studied to become a recording engineer. After working at many small studios throughout New York City and New Jersey in order to hone his craft, he was hired at the renowned Real Platinum studio, where he had the opportunity to work on records with a variety of artists, including The Misfits and Black Flag, while also working as an on-the-road sound engineer and tour manager and running his own Pro Tools rental company. In the early 2000s, he moved to L.A., where he worked as the head engineer at EMI Publishing. After many years as an in-demand engineer, he segued into his current role as independent music supervisor, specializing on Internet projects, commercials and video games . Throughout his career, he has worked on major releases with artists such as Christina Aguilera, Nothingface, Butch Walker and Jewel.
I recently had a chance to chat with Mike about his long career in the music business. He also shared some advice for independent artists looking to build successful partnerships with engineers and producers and get their music heard by music supervisors who can place it, especially on the Internet and in commercials.
Thanks for taking some time to talk, Mike. How did you get into the music business?
I got started in the music business through a very good friend of mine named Steven Shaw when I was about 16. He was a guitar teacher and mentor of mine, and he basically guided me into becoming an audio engineer. He suggested that instead of going to Berklee College of Music – which I got into – that I go to Full Sail and become a recording engineer.
I worked at a bunch of small studios in New Jersey and New York to start. I did records for friends’ bands and other projects of that nature until things started to pick up.
You wound up working with artists like Nothingface and Christina Aguilera. So, how did you end up getting to that point?
The members of Nothingface were more friends of mine than they were clients. I worked with them once or twice as an audio engineer.
How things started to pick up was, I was really desperate for a gig. And I had been working at different studios in New York doing my own projects. But I needed to expand my knowledge base beyond what I was doing. So, I found this studio very close to my house in Lodi, New Jersey called Real Platinum. The reason I wanted to work there was because Samhain had recorded there, The Misfits had recorded there, and it was primarily a punk rock/metal studio.
The first project I got to work on when I went there as an assistant was The Misfits’ box set. That was a really cool experience for me, because I got to sit there with Jerry Only and Robo, the original Black Flag drummer. They were telling all these punk rock stories about being on the road. It was just great for me. And it led to me working with a lot of other artists there.
I worked at Real Platinum for a while, then eventually got a call from Christina Aguilera’s management. They asked me if I knew producers and writers that would be suitable for her, because they weren’t really happy with the demos they had. So, I recommended a friend of mine – Rob Hoffman. He had just finished working with Michael Jackson and Bruce Swedien on “Blood on the Dance Floor” and was also helping put together his HBO special. I gave Christina over to him and asked if he would work with her. It took me a good three, to four weeks, calling him and telling him, “You really need to work with this girl” to get him to say yes. I got them on a conference call and introduced the songs we’d picked for her. The only one from the bunch that made it was a song called “Obvious,” which is the last track on the Genie in a Bottle album.
That was what started to put me on the map. While all this was happening, I was also touring as an engineer and tour manager with a bunch of different bands like Save Ferris and some others. Eventually, I came back to New York and New Jersey to rest for a bit, worked on some albums and realized I really needed to do some other things to get off the ground. I opened my own studio and started producing bands. At the same time, I opened up a Pro Tools rental company, where I was renting the guys from Naughty By Nature, etc. And I always had a head for business, so I continued to pick artists’ and managers’ brains to determine what they were looking for when putting together albums and working with people. I wanted to see what the temperature of the market was at the time and where it was going. That part of it always fascinated me.
When I was young, my parents somehow met Bob Jamieson, who was the president of BMG Records at the time. And they said, “Our son Mike is young and just getting into the business. He needs some guidance.” And Bob said, “The first thing I can say is, don’t become an engineer.” He was very right about that in the end. I always took that advice to heart, realizing that eventually I wouldn’t be engineering. I held onto that gig for as long as I could.
I had started my Pro Tools company in 1999, and after the towers fell in New York in 2001, it was obvious that no one wanted to come to that city to make records anymore. Right Track closed and Hit Factory eventually called it a day. The events in New York really affected how the music business was going to be there from then on; it felt like it was no longer a music town.
For a long time, a lot of people had been begging me to come to L.A. And I was losing clients on the rental side of things and could no longer support that business. I ended up going to L.A. in June, 2003. For the first six months, it was rough. But I ended up falling into the head engineering job at EMI Publishing. That opened me up to a whole new world as far as gigging around. That was an awesome learning experience. I would demo and do songwriter sessions for pretty much any artist that was on the EMI Publishing label. My clients ranged from Slipknot, to the Bullet Boys. That’s also where I got to work with Butch Walker, who I think is one of the greatest songwriters and producers in the world. He was writing with another writer, and we got to work on a demo that was being proposed for Whitney Houston. You don’t get those opportunities too often.
You did a lot of engineering, then eventually segued into music supervision and thus have worked with a lot of bands and artists. Tell me what advice you would give musicians who are looking for engineers and producers.
First off, if you’re looking for an engineer or producer, you have to accept the fact that technology has made it very easy to do everything at home. And I think a lot of those records sound great, but you really need to find someone who is experienced. I’ve gone through the process of hunting for producers with bands I’ve managed in the past. You look for a producer, and the way the market is now is that there are a lot of guys who you think are unattainable but are not. If you have a little bit of money, many of them will record or mix your record for a certain price. Guys who are known as huge producers are doing records for pennies on the dollar now.
I think when you’re picking a producer, it’s a matter of figuring out who is going to fit your style the best. For example, you’re not going to get Bob Rock to do a White Stripes record. You need to find someone who really sees your vision clearly and is within your price range. And bands are more often responsible for investing in their own albums these days.
I was listening to an interview not too long ago on Sirius Radio, and they were talking to Anthrax right after their new record Worship Music had come out. Charlie Benante made a good point: “We love making albums, but they cost money. And we’re not making a lot of money on albums anymore.” I think the investment is a lot about the commitment of the artist to making an album. You have to go in with the mindset that there will be a certain amount of loss involved. Because, not everyone can license their songs for $300,000 like certain artists do.
I’ve found that the album has become a resume for the live show more than anything else.
Most definitely. I’ve heard artists complain, “Why do you want to sound exactly like the live record? When people listen to your record at home, you want it to be perfect.” But it’s really coming down to the live show again; people need to actually play live in order to be successful. There are definitely still bands that have studio magic that doesn’t translate well live, but for the most part, playing live is really important.
I think also when you’re looking for an engineer or producer, you want to find someone who is going to bring out the best in your band. That should be their main focus. Obviously you can’t do it yourself. Going back to the point about a producer’s track record, you need to look for the right vibe. Artists are so rigid about what their vision is that sometimes they can’t see the forest for the trees. I think a producer is a football coach and a musician all wrapped into one. He’s doing the things he needs to get done to make the songs great so the artist can succeed. That is really the best way to describe what a great producer is.
You made a living as an engineer for a long time. What advice would you have given yourself as an engineer when you were just starting out, knowing what you know now?
First off, I would’ve invested more time in learning about the business side. I came from the generation of “Build it and They Will Come.” A lot of engineers made their way up by working with major studios, and eventually these studios went away with the introduction of Pro Tools. If you want to be an engineer these days, you have to treat it like a business. It’s not just about making records; it’s about being business savvy and creating “you” as a band and letting that brand be the business. That’s so paramount to what you do and how you succeed.
You also need to be constantly meeting people and kicking down doors.
It’s always hard to be pleasantly pushy.
Yes, and that’s exactly what it is: “pleasantly pushy.”
And now you’re a music supervisor. How did you get involved with that?
As a music supervisor, I have a very narrow focus: I don’t work with film or TV shows. I music supervise for Internet, video games and commercials – projects with a quick turnaround. I am the type of person who needs to work on things that can be completed relatively quickly.
That being said, I got into it via my EMI connections. Also, a friend of mine knew I was in the music business and came to me and said, “I need to get a music license for this commercial I’m directing. Can you do it?” And I said, “Sure.”
I had all the experience and the people involved in licensing around me when I was at EMI, so I was always very interested in asking questions about publishing so I could learn how it all worked. I had seen contracts and had written them a bunch of times myself for all the artists I’d managed. So, I executed a license for my friend and thought there might be a business in it for me. I was doing personal management of bands at the time, and it just wasn’t going the way I wanted it to. This opened up a whole new career for me.
I am personally a very friendly guy. I just really like people. And I would say that the licensing stream of revenue for artists is really important. Especially in commercials and Internet-based projects, I see a whole lot of opportunities for smaller artists to get paid – to add on an additional stream of revenue. They have access to a lot of commercial tools.
And if you are a musician without many contacts, how can you approach guys like you? What makes music connect to a project?
Something people don’t understand about music supervisors is, first of all, we get a lot of requests for very specific types of music. And secondly, we also get a lot of requests for music we can submit for specific projects. Getting the attention of music supervisors is definitely not the easiest thing in the world for artists. For example, if you’re a small band in Idaho with no Facebook fans or Twitter followers and send your work to the music supervisor for Grey’s Anatomy, forget it.
As an artist, you need to have a real presence. The one thing I look for more than anything else now is a band’s Facebook presence and the number of YouTube hits they have.
And I would imagine you look not only at pure numbers, but also at the quality of their interactions.
If you’re an artist, I want to see that you’re interacting with your fans, playing shows and doing everything you need to be doing. It’s hard for me to push a smaller band unless it’s such a low-dollar license that they will take anything. Because, of course, sometimes the song just fits. If I can get a song to fit a project, they will usually take it. And then I’ll negotiate the deal from there.
I always find it difficult advising independent artists about how to get music placed, because they’re likely to be up against bigger companies that have huge catalogs.
Yes. And that’s the point I was trying to touch on. More often than not, I will go to a company like BMG or Warner/Chappell and get music from them, because that’s what has been requested. A lot of times, people will request certain pieces of music. And when this happens, there is no way for music supervisors to think outside the box unless they really believe in the band.
I’ve been in situations where I’ve had chances to submit music, and I’ve submitted unsigned bands. And it has either worked or it hasn’t. Most of the time, it doesn’t work. But I do always try my best to get the little guy out there, because everyone needs a shot and everyone has to start somewhere.
I agree, although that’s not the approach of most music supervisors.
Definitely not. But I’m trying to grow my business into one of the biggest music supervision companies in the world. And in order to do that, you have to start by taking care of the little people.
To learn more about Mike Jackson and the work he does with music, you can reach out to him at firstname.lastname@example.org.