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Jonathan Cargill is a partner in the Labels Jagjaguwar, Secretly Canadian, Dead Oceans and the companies Bellwether Manufacturing and SC Distribution. He makes management decisions for all of these companies but his areas of expertise are publicity and music licensing / placement. Jonathan and his partners have had a great deal of success of late with artists like Bon Iver, Black Mountain, Okkervil River and Antony and the Johnsons.
First of all – tell me how you got into the business and wound up running all these different companies?
JC:
I knew I was going to be involved with music. I thought I was going to be a rock star, but I definitely learned very early that I wasn’t going to be a rock star. I was managing a cafeteria at a university dormitory, and one of my employees – someone I had connected with and who had similar musical tastes and career aspirations – ended up being my partner Chris Swanson. After talking for at least a year, we decided, “Let’s just jump in and do this.” So he called upon his brother, and we pooled our collective savings. We knew of an artist, so we raised the money to press his CD. And once we had the CD, we realized we had to do something with these. We jumped in and figured it out and made a lot of calls and found distributors and a store. We just got some lucky breaks early on to the point where we had distributors and their attention, and it grew from there.
About how long ago was this and which of these companies came first?
JC:
This was Secretly Canadian in 1996. Our first release was an album called “Gloria Hole” by June Panic, which came out September of 1996. It just grew from there, to give you more in-depth background about what goes on here in Bloomington, Indiana. After a couple years of doing Secretly Canadian, we connected with Darius Van Arman who was running Jagjaguar Records by himself in Charlottesville, VA. We connected with him because we saw some early Jagjaguar releases in stores that were compared to Secretly Canadian artists, which made us intrigued. We got to know Darius, and in 1998, Darius moved Jagjaguar from Charlottesville to Bloomington to hang out with us and have a little brain trust of struggling labels. From there, things kind of happened organically. We also have Bellwether Manufacturing and SE Distribution running out of our office. Those came about organically because we realized we were paying too much to get our CD’s manufactured. So we did a bunch of research and cut out the middleman and started working with CD manufacturing plants directly. That’s pretty much how distribution came about, because we a) didn’t have distribution and b) the people we worked with weren’t paying, so we took matters into our own hands.
Fast forward to today- we run the companies Secretly Canadian, Jagjaguar, Dead Oceans, Bellwether Manufacturing and SE Distribution out of our offices.
You are a partner in all of these companies but what are your areas of expertise?
JC:
From the beginning, we all realized that we’re all partners and we all make macro decisions, but we have to specialize and have a division of labor. We found that pretty naturally, because we had people that were interested or had the expertise. Since there were four of us with four different backgrounds, we naturally went to our own positions. For the first eleven years I was the publicist for Secretly Canadian and Jagjaguar. Then as we hired more publicists, my role morphed. That’s when I got into the film and TV licensing. That happened out of necessity because we were getting a lot of inquiries and not really knowing what to do with them or how to handle them. I stepped up to learn how to do all that.
I am guessing that because the phone was ringing you were able to build relationships and did a handful of cold calling as well to build up a roster of people to place with? Is that how that worked?
JC:
Definitely. I did it the same way I built up the Rolodex of publicity contacts but with film and TV executives. It was figuring out who’s who and how to contact them.
You really had to build this from scratch.
JC:
Yeah, but I don’t know what else I was doing, so I figured I’d just jump in and make it work. The first six years of Secretly Canadian, I also had a full-time job. It was just a super hobby, because the label was also another 40 hours. It got to the point where something had to give, and I decided to follow rock and roll. It was really a tough decision because I was taking a large pay cut and jumping into the unknown, but I just knew it was something I wanted to do.
Musician Coaching: What attracts you to an artist that makes you consider putting their records out on either of the labels you work with? What do you look for in an artist?
JC: It’s a mixture of things that makes an artist attractive. The gateway is the music, and it has to be unanimous that we’re feeling the same about the music. There are times where someone is on the fence or didn’t like it, but there’s a due process for any band that someone really likes. We all have to connect on it. The magic combo is artists that make great music, aren’t afraid to work, achieve the things they want and just aren’t assholes. That’s kind of the way we look at it. We’ve been pretty fortunate with finding artists who have these qualities.
The way we look at it is we’re not in the business to release one record by a band and then try to cash in and walk away from it. There are a lot of labels that do that, and that’s not what we’re about. It’s a partnership. “We’ll bust our ass for you and this is what we can offer.” We don’t tell them this, but it’s an understanding, “We hope that you’ll bust your ass and do such and such thing. Don’t be afraid to tour, connect with your fans with your website or MySpace. Do things that bands should be doing if they want to get heard.” I think symbiotic relationships are ultimately the most successful.
How are you finding the role of being a label now that there are so many tools are in artists’ hands?
JC:
There are definitely bands that I don’t know why they come to us because they act like they don’t need us or necessarily want us, and that’s fine. There are plenty of bands that can do that. We’re really transparent and say, “This is who we are, this is what we offer, this is what we think we can do.”
In your particular case that’s your licensing and PR relationships. What do the others focus on?
JC:
We have robust and timely accounting. We’re very transparent. The steps we take can be seen by our artists. They get their statements from us, and they know what we spent and where we spent it and the money they made, where it’s all going. That’s a big thing. I think there are labels that don’t do well with accounting. We have in-house manufacturing and distribution, so we know they’ll get a quality product; their albums are going to look good and sound great. We also have a network to get their CD’s in stores or onto digital service providers.
I would guess you are getting good placement in the indie retailers that matter.
JC:
I think so. We’ve had relationships with these stores for over a decade now. That’s particularly good for us, because all members of the label are also project managers. We all have our own bands that we work with. If they have any questions or there’s any problem with the distribution, we can just walk over there and ask why there aren’t CD’s in a particular store, etc.
What advice would you give for artists looking to get more press and looking to get their material licensed?
JC:
I think for press, it’s easier now than ever. The whole blog explosion has definitely leveled the playing field a bit. First of all, I think it’s good for a band to be very realistic. If you think you recorded an album and now you’re going to be on the cover of Alternative Press, it doesn’t work that way. I personally think it’s easy for bands – especially unsigned bands – to create a ground swell that will attract the attention of labels, booking agents, promoters, bigger publications. I think that’s been the big revolution in media recently.
Do you think by going after enough attainable periodicals and blogs, someone can snowball that into getting bigger and better press and opportunities?
JC:
I think so. Especially f a band can couple that with being on the road a lot. It’s always good for a band to tour as much as they can and as much as they can afford. That’s where you’re going to connect with your audience. That’s what I want. If I hear a record I really like, I want to go see them and see how they do it live and get a sense of their personality. I think that’s what drives fans and what being a fan is. That’s how you attract them – by creating an attention. Blogs can do that, and if you have some blog in Minneapolis talking about your band and show up in a week or a couple days, it starts to connect. People remember your name and they tell their friends. I think the whole grassroots thing is incredibly important and very strong.
What about on the licensing front?
JC:
That’s a different beast. There are plenty of success stories of unknown bands getting key placements. With bigger magazines – if you’re shooting for Rolling Stone – you’re someone at the mercy of the editor. If the editor likes it, then he assigns it to a writer. I think it’s the same way with licensing to film and TV. You have to find the right music supervisor. They either have to really like it, or it just has to be the perfect song for the perfect scene. That’s the wild card with film and TV. It has to be right for the scene. It’s hard for some bands to understand that, and they ask, “How come we’re not on Grey’s Anatomy?”
I would imagine it’s a lot easier for you than for an artist doing this on their own, because you’re calling constantly and not just with one band’s worth of material.
JC:
Right. I also get a lot of searches for supervisors that will call looking for the perfect cue for a scene, and it’s incredibly specific. A lot of times, I just don’t have anything for that. 90% of the time it’s that way. That could be anything. But that connection is, you just have to get you music heard by the right people. Because when the right scene comes up and you have the perfect song for it, it’s going to happen. You just have to make sure they know to look for your song.
Any advice on doing that? Get your music heard in a way that’s not obtrusive?
JC:
Finding these people is not that hard – that’s what Google is for. There are hundreds of people selling mailing lists. I don’t know the validity of those places, but when I started, I went online and for $30 bought a mailing list that had music contacts of film production and TV production companies, or directly to music supervisors and just started sending them music. Sending the CD in the mail is not obtrusive at all because that’s these people’s job. Their job is to absorb as much music as they can so they can find a perfect home for it. They are actually seeking music, you just have to meet their demand. It’s obtrusive if you’re calling them every day saying, “Hey – place my music in Grey’s Anatomy.”
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Check out what Jonathan and his partners are up to at Jagjaguwar, Secretly Canadian, Dead Oceans, Bellwether Manufacturing and SC Distribution
I got the chance to catch up with my friend Emily White of Whitesmith Entertainment and her client Sebastian, who is the self-described drummer and occasional guitar player for Family of the Year. Many of you have not heard of Family of the Year and that was kind of the idea. I want to follow the path of a group that is just starting off their career under the guidance of a gifted manager. I got to catch up Emily and Sebastian just before CMJ.
Sebastian, what is your role business-wise for Family of the Year?
S:
My role is the day-to-day task manager of the band – the liaison between Emily and her team and all the other members of the team. I do scheduling, logistics, etc.
EW:
He’s done an amazing job making sure we’re staying on track. We self-released an EP last month that was donation based and that’s been going really, really well. And we’re releasing their debut album next month. There’s a lot that goes into that: the artwork and producing the CD’s and mastering and everything that goes into that. Sebastian has been amazing making sure everybody’s staying on track.
S:
The group has naturally evolved into each person having a specific role. No one was assigned anything they didn’t want to take on. My brother (Joseph – guitar / vox in FOTY) is incredibly inclined when it comes to producing and recording music. It was his major project to write this music and record it. That was his natural ability. We’ve got another guy James who has extensive audio engineering background, so he’s at the shows dealing with the technical stuff. We have whiz kids on computers as far as social networking stuff: Christina and Vanessa. Brent is our graphic designer and will eventually take over our website management. He’s been putting Vanessa’s hand-drawn art into the computers in order for us to be able to create all our merchandise and our CD art. It’s naturally turned into a finely-tuned machine.
And you guys are from Silver Lake?
S:
Originally my brother and I are from Massachusetts and the two girls are from Orange County, CA. The two other guys are from the south. One’s from Louisiana and the other is from Jacksonville, FL. We formed in Silver Lake and we now reside a few miles from Silver Lake. We all moved into a big house that we’re rebuilding in the hills outside L.A.
It’s kind of nice you have different sets of friends in different markets. You must save money on hotel costs.
S:
It certainly does.
EW:
We also do that on the road. The band bought a 1986 RV, so we haven’t spent anything on hotels. They all crash together, and sometimes there’s a filmmaker or a sound guy or me, and everybody sleeps pretty well in it.
S:
There are seven of us right now. There’s the band and then Chris. He’s actually making a documentary about the band. He’s been traveling with us on and off over the last couple months. Emily is going to be joining us. It’s usually quite a packed vehicle and really fun … and economical, really.
I first heard of you guys about 90 days ago. What experiences did you guys have with nationwide touring, either individually or as a group prior to 90 days ago?
S:
We had some experience, but not an extensive amount. We basically had several DIY tours that we had put together, but we’d never worked with a booking agent.
EW:
These were other bands also.
S:
My brother and James and I used to play in a band together back in Boston for years called Unbusted. Mostly we were in Boston and New York and the Northeast, but we did go out on the road a few times. But they were DIY tours, and it was really hard and really expensive and kind of heartbreaking. You get yourself so very excited, but if the framework isn’t there and you’re not getting yourself out there, then you’re not going to make money and you’re not really going to attract attention. For years back in Boston when we first knew Emily, she was juggling college and interning and a supporter of our music. She was on the ball back in the day telling us about mailing lists, social networking websites and things like that. She told us, “This is the way it’s going to be,” and we would say, “No, we’re traditional band that is going to keep playing club after club and wowing people, and soon people will be showing up by the thousands.” Sure enough, we were wrong. We had some experience touring, but it wasn’t effective touring. You could go out there and spend two years touring the states, but if certain pieces aren’t in place it’s not going to be a good experience. We had fun, but as far as trying to build a career and a following and selling albums, it’s next to impossible if you don’t have the correct presence online. I think that’s the major factor these days. The biggest difference is an ability to connect with fans. It’s the only avenue these days.
What has been the difference this time? How did you go about getting a booking agent?
S:
I honestly think it was the strength of the recordings that Joseph and Vanessa had made. The music was never really intended on being released. It was really a love child of theirs. They spent a year and a half in their apartment in Silver Lake recording this music together and falling in love and recording these songs. It was really a natural, beautiful thing that was turned into our product. I think that’s what has given us all a chance. We were reaching out with a lot of people. I was pretty much going through my Rolodex and saying, “Let me call up everyone I know to pull that one favor.” I contacted anybody whether they’d slighted us or been really great to us. I was standing in line at the DMV sending off e-mails. We were just really excited about what was happening with this band. We had just formed, we had a couple of really great concerts coming up and we were really excited about the music, and I reflected that in an e-mail to Emily and she came back immediately excited. And she started kicking butt and churning up some interest from their end.
That’s important to ask you about too. People have different projects throughout their lives. Did this feel different?
S:
100%, yes. It is a totally different monster. Everybody has their teenage/high school band and has high hopes and hometown dreams to fulfill. And then if you’re not one of those lucky few bands that makes it with your high school buddies, you have your sophomore slump with your next band. We formed another group called the Billionaires that achieved some kind of minor local success in L.A. We played some really great shows, released some albums, sold some copies but that was a major turning point. We went from being a small town, hard rock, raw group of kids that moved to the city and matured and settled into songwriting. Joe always had the ability to write a good song, but I think the music and voice kind of naturally emerged. It felt different because it felt really right. We all agreed we could play with this band in any situation, whether it was Madison Square Garden or someone’s kitchen. That’s really a great feeling, and it’s not just about sound, being too loud or too quiet. It’s a matter of being really comfortable with it and it representing us.
EW:
They made incredible recordings. But the reason they were able to do that is because they’ve been musicians for so long. I have other people saying, “How is this happening so quickly?” Well, although it appears that it’s happening quickly, these guys have been in bands, they’ve played SXSW, they’ve done the DIY tours so they really know what it’s like. I loved them in college, but they’ve developed so well, and it really shows. People like us that are listening to music all day, when we hear really great music and really great songwriting, that’s really going to stand out.
S:
I guess I neglected to mention that half the band had been playing music forever, putting on concerts since we were ten with aspirations to become rock stars. What’s great about the other half of the band is that they haven’t. We have half junior veterans and half greenhorns. It keeps it really interesting and fresh for everyone.
I noticed on the website that you guys are doing the name-your-own-price for the CDs. I know a lot of people have advocated this approach. How has it worked for you so far?
S:
It’s been fantastic. It’s just great. Everyone gets our music. I think it’s tough to force someone to pay for something these days, especially when it’s our first release. We just want to get our music out there. It’s worked out really well because we end up with the information that is their e-mail address, which I think is more valuable than five dollars. In the end, we’re bulking up our fan base. It’s about getting direct to the fans, so this has expedited it.
EW:
We own the rights, so we’re able to do that. And the average donation has been about ten dollars. Obviously beyond that it’s amazing, because of course, if you can give the band your money, that’s fantastic. They have a really great artist statement that’s really upfront: the money goes to gas and bringing these people to your town. But beyond that, we do just want the word spread. And if it’s a poor college student that can’t afford anything, awesome, we just want you to hear the music and come out to a show.
S:
We’ve had people pay fifty dollars, we’ve had a thousand people pay nothing. It doesn’t bother us. We want the music out there. I would give anybody a physical copy for free in person if they wanted it.
How long have you been collecting addresses, and how many (ballpark) would you say you have?
EW:
We have been collecting since September 22nd when it was released. I think we’ve had 2,000 page views, a few hundred downloads and it’s definitely gone well. We’re literally using that to spend on Facebook ads, posters and reinvest in the band right away.
S:
Just reinvesting and reaching out a little further. It’s great to spread out the money and invest a little more. We’re not pocketing it.
EW:
Sebastian had a great point about data collection. It’s wonderful for me to see these e-mail addresses, the countries, the person’s name. I write back to some people and say, “You’re in Australia, how did you hear about this band?”
S:
We’ve got these great Google analytics coming through. Greece is number three (The third ranked country for FOTY web traffic). It’s really cool and great information. It’s fantastic to be able to see the information and reach out to them. The whole world is conspiring right now to help the indie band.
EW:
Our number one traffic generator has been Twitter. That’s great, because it’s the band interacting with fans and with other artists, and it’s making a huge difference. We’re going to do a similar thing for their album release next month. It’s going to be a donation-based album, a 15-song album. Anybody that pays over ten dollars is going to get a physical copy. We’ll probably do a couple other tiers too.
How about the postcard campaign?
(To help fund their trip to CMJ Family of the Year offered fans personalized post cards from the road for a $5 donation)
S:
It’s going great. We’ve had a huge response to it. I don’t know how many we’ve done, but we’ve done a bunch. It’s fun for the band. It’s old school Twitter. It’s direct to the people, and people want that. I know I would want that if I was falling in love with a band again.
EW:
People like to know that they’re helping out. I went to Jill Sobule’s show last night, and she brought the fan up on stage that had donated the most amount of money on her album, and she wrote a song for that fan and did a duet with her and I almost cried. The fan literally helped make this album.
S:
We’ve had several people purchase several postcards. It’s overwhelming that if you give people the opportunity to help out, so many people will take that opportunity.
EW:
Cut out the middle person. People really like supporting artists that they’re into, so we’ve been really blessed.
S:
We’ve had a really positive reaction at live shows whenever we mention from the stage that we’re doing this on our own and we need help. It’s amazing. People love the idea of it. It’s not just hoots and hollers. People actually react and come and purchase stuff.
I was always fond of buying a drink for a band coming through town, but gas money seems a much better use of everybody’s time. What’s this documentary all about?
S:
It just slid in perfectly with work and planning. Vanessa is an actress and has been one forever. The DP on the last film she worked on was a fan of our music, and we invited him to come out with us. He expressed interest in working on a filmed documentary of the band. It just worked out that he cleared his schedule and just fit in perfectly with the band. It’s not as if there’s ever any kind of weirdness about this extra person hanging out. He’s just a great friend of the band. I don’t know how to describe it, but it just worked out.
EW:
We’re incredibly lucky that it came through. Chris has been busting ass, and I’ll wake up and see him literally sleeping on the RV floor. He’s amazing.
Are you going to repurpose the footage at all?
S:
We have a five-minute short that’s going to be released soon, though we’re not sure what it’s going to be released with. Later on after this full tour we’re doing, there’s going to be a twenty to thirty minute documentary of the whole thing. And it’s really focusing around the band doing it itself. It’s not just the antics of being on tour. It’s focusing on what we’re talking about so far.
Is there stuff that you’ve tried that hasn’t work? Advice to somebody who will ultimately be reading this?
S:
Definitely listen to Emily White. (Laughs) If we had listened to her five years ago we would’ve been a lot further down the road, though I think also if we had, we wouldn’t be here today. But seriously, I think that in rock and roll, it’s really hard to give the Internet as much credit as it’s due. Computers aren’t fun, computers aren’t cool, but it’s absolutely critical to be in touch with people. It’s a new era and a new age. And be creative. If you’re having fun people will have fun as well. Whether you had fun creating your artwork as a group, naming your group or making your album, it does reflect in the product no matter what it is.
EW:
Focusing on the work and the art is important. The art has to be amazing. I don’t think musicians should spend more than an hour or two a day on social networking. They should be rehearsing and writing and recording. It’s important and needs to be kept up but really cap it at two hours. We’re all here to support these artists and their music.
S:
I guess I neglected to say that because it’s such an automatic thing for me.
EW:
There are so many musicians that get too caught up in all the social networking stuff, and I think that can be overwhelming and dangerous.
Yea, I have found it can be a dangerous time suck as well…
S:
Back to the whole dynamic of the group and the roles. It’s been amazing that Joe, who is the band leader, producer, songwriter hasn’t been tethered to this business bologna at all. Of course we all make the decisions together, but he’s not getting on Twitter.
EW:
I don’t want his head in it. His head needs to be in music all the time.
S:
It’s really been ideal. If there’s an opportunity to divvy up jobs where it’s stress free, that’s the thing to do.
EW:
These guys are working their asses off. It’s really impressive.
S:
I want to reiterate “practice.” We’ve been playing forever, and it still isn’t enough. We spent six days a week since March from 7 p.m. to 3 a.m. in our rehearsal space.
EW:
I wanted to say on the filmmaker thing, we have to be creative about those partners too. I know tons of video directors and filmmakers that are used to getting budgets from labels. But MTV doesn’t exist and YouTube doesn’t always give the rev share people need to get the money back. For Chris, we haven’t set exactly how we’re going to release that content. But that filmmaker is an artist too, and that’s part of the donation process.
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Check out family of the year
Larry Mills is the director of music products for Getty Images – the parent company of Pump Audio.
What is it that you do for Getty / Pump Audio?
LM: I am the director of Music Products for Getty Images. My job entails helping to develop our current catalogue of music, which include Pump Audio, our premium playlist catalogue and Royalty Free Music, which came over in the Getty Images acquisition of Jupiter Images. Those three current products and then developing any products or catalogues from a content standpoint are some of my responsibilities, as is bringing in partners such as record labels, digital distributors, publishing companies and aggregators of content, whoever they may be. I also work on developing strategies from a sales standpoint and rolling that out on a global level to educate, train and support our sales teams around the world. These strategies help them sell more music into their current sales clients, which range from everyone from advertising agencies, digital content creators, publishers, corporations and every major media company in the world. I also develop an online strategy to get the freelance and small online one- and two-person shops to come in and have an easy way to get music for their individual and small business projects.
For the purposes of this discussion let’s talk about Pump Audio as that is the company that would be most valuable to an independent artist. How much independent music are you placing on an annual basis with Pump Audio?
LM: In our current catalogue we’ve had over 40,000 artists submit music to us in the nine or ten years we’ve been around. Every song is listened to by our team of classifiers to separate the good from the bad. We currently have over 125,000 songs that have been classified as “good enough” to make our catalogue. We have 40,000 of those tracks online and two delivery methods: our online soundtrack tool and our Pump Box, which is a hard drive for more professional, high-volume users – the major production companies and broadcasters like the MTVs and NBCs of the world. The hard drive has 35,000 tracks, and the remaining tracks are used as the on-deck circle and put online. We put anywhere 3,000-4,000 new tracks per month into the online tool. Those tracks are used for research or are potentially songs that fall into categories where we already have a lot of music. We don’t want to overwhelm the person searching and listening. A search return of 6,000 songs is not going to be in anyone’s interest. We pay out anywhere from 5,000-10,000 artists every six months. We license hundreds of thousands of tracks in a given year.
What are some of the qualities of the type of music that you license and that gets placed? What tips would you give to someone that wants to work with Pump Audio?
LM: I think initially it’s very important to know that if you are going to submit music to any licensing service, the majority of the volume licensers like us look for instrumental music. I would recommend that any artist who submits to always make an instrumental version of every track. So if you’re going to put a song on your record with lyrics, you should spin off another copy that’s an instrumental version. That is the majority of music that is used in big-blanket deals. If you watch television and movies, most of the music that is background music is instrumental. That’s the high-volume music. If you go online and listen to the music that’s being played on videos or on Web sites, more often than not that music is instrumental. A lot of people miss this. Following this tip will also give you a greater chance on an international level. The second tip is, we find that stylistically it really is a mixed bag, but it’s usually what’s popular in the day that is popular in licensing. For background music electronic, moody stuff – whether that mood be positive, negative, upbeat, downbeat – is very popular. Depending on the time, we’ve seen an uptick in hip hop or teen pop or country or harder rock. It crosses all genres.
Can you point to any particular long-term success stories in the Pump Catalogue?
LM: We have some of those stories, and we can point to some people who have had more success outside the U.S. that have opened up some touring opportunities for themselves. We had one artist that placed a song on a Portuguese soap opera and was actually able to tour Europe with it because the person was able to get fans through the Web. I think a company like ours is less about getting an artist to get a song in a big commercial or on a TV show and more about being the bank. We are about making you money on your music. Any of those things that help you with promotion your career are positive bi-products but I don’t think very often you’re going to see companies like ours breaking bands. It’s not what we’re built for. It does happen, but it’s more about artists that came with us and were able to become professional musicians. We’ve had people that have been able to take the money they make with us and buy a van so they were able to tour better. I think a lot of people looked at the licensing landscape as, “I don’t mind giving it for free if I think I’m going to get promotion.” I don’t think that’s the case anymore. The “Grey’s Anatomy”s of the world helping with Snow Patrol or the Fray, those were bands on major labels to begin with. I don’t think that’s necessarily the best way to do it. The goal should be when you come to people like us is to look at us as a volume play to make you money to then invest in your career. I think other people dangle the carrot and say, “If you do it for free, we’ll get you this or that,” but 90% of the time, that’s not how it plays out. I think the reality of what a company like Pump does is important. As the guy who founded the company said, “The only thing I can promise is, if I get paid, you get paid. I don’t promise that you’re going to become a star because of this.”
Tell me about the splits.
LM: Artists get 35% of the sync license and we administer the publishing for the uses that we place. We re-register the tracks so we know if we placed it or the artist placed it. If we get something in a show, we share in that revenue, and if the artist gets something in a show, we don’t touch it. This isn’t a publishing deal. If we place it, we take 50% of the publisher’s share. So basically 25 cents on the dollar of the entire performing rights revenue. We actually collect that around the world because we place things globally. We have a deal with Kobalt Music Publishing, and they help us register and collect the money around the world. We’re seeing performance revenue from Singapore, Australia, Romania, Turkey, South America, etc.
So artists don’t have to go to the P.R.O.s (Performance Royalties Organizations) in other countries to get that revenue. How do you respond to concerns from artists who are interested in signing up with Pump but are also interested in getting publishing deals in the future?
LM: Our deals are totally non-exclusive, and there’s just a period of time it takes us to get tracks off the system. It’s very easy to get them off our online system, but more difficult to get them off our Pump Box that sits on people’s desktops all over the world. So there’s a certain period of time in our contract that allows us to continue licensing that track for ease of use by our clients. But you can pull out of this deal at any time. We are big supporters of the independent music scene and have paid out millions upon millions of dollars to independent artists in the last ten years. You could say that next to record labels we support the independent music community more than anyone. We hope the money people are making with us is some leverage into dealing with a publishing company. My opinion would be that if I was a publishing company looking at an artist working with Pump, taking it out of our library does you a disservice. You should be able to negotiate with that publishing company and say, “I’m making $50,000 per year with Pump, so pulling me off that catalogue is in no one’s best interest.”
What percentage of people that apply get into the Pump catalogue?
LM: My guess is that we get anywhere from 5,000-10,000 new tracks submitted to us on a monthly basis and we average 2,000-2500 new tracks making it in to the syste,. So, I guess about 25-50% of new music gets accepted. Once an artist in our system and gets placed we tend to accept their new tracks faster.
Any advice for artists about things to be wary with services like Pump?
LM: I think an artist should be in as many of these as possible. There are a lot of very good ones out there that have been very successful. I don’t care if someone makes you $100 per year. Your songs should be earning for you wherever possible. I think the two key things you should be wary of is exclusivity if you don’t want it and how the service claims to be or not be royalty free. Royalty free is a term that is being misused and is confusing to clients who believe when they buy music from these sites that there are no performance royalties due, and that is not true for affiliated artists. I think they need to be very careful when they are signing up or they may get caught in a situation where the client is buying something that is different from expected and might put the artist in a funny situation.
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If you are interested in licensing your music check out Pump Audio
Rich Schaefer is a manager at The Artist’s Organization (TAO). He has worked with artists such as John Mellencamp, CKY and Ricky Martin and currently works with Matisyahu, John Legend, Lenny Kravitz and Counting Crows. Rich oversees all aspect of touring for all of the acts at TAO and including routing, booking, budgeting and marketing tour dates.
Rich thanks for your time. Tell me a bit about your gig. With established artists, what do you spend the majority of your time doing?
RS:
I primarily oversee touring for all our acts. It involves dealing with the crew and the tour managers and the production managers – everything from building the tour routing to the production of shows.
Since you’re tour focused, what would you say your theory or your way of operating is in helping break a touring act?
RS:
There are a couple schools of thought, and obviously every band is different, but for a lot of bands there’s the elusive, “How do I start selling tickets?” Because obviously once you start selling tickets everything is seemingly golden for you or at least you can keep building on that. The reality is there are fewer bands every day that are able to sell tickets just because of reduced number of outlets like radio and press which have kind of shrunk a bit and been consolidated to the point where they’re less likely to take a chance on new acts. So, it’s always great to have a new band that you’re able to get on a bigger tour if it makes sense.
There’s always a debate about whether, “Should we try to get on the U2 tour?” People that are going to see U2 and paying the $200 a ticket really are there to see U2 and really don’t care about the opening band. There are much smaller acts that play clubs or theaters where the audience is actually into seeing new music; and those are the more desirable tours for our new bands to be on.
That makes perfect sense. It’s also probably better to have an act play to a packed house for the psychological impact.
RS:
I went to an arena show and the opening band played to probably a thousand people. When the main act came on there were 16,000 people. There is something demoralizing about playing an empty venue anywhere and you can only imagine how bad it is when you’re playing an empty arena.
When you are evaluating potential clients, what are the factors that most likely influence you?
RS:
I think it’s a great question. There isn’t really any one thing in particular that does that. The first thing is the music, and as you know from what you’ve done in the past, you want to be drawn to the music. I forgot who said it, but somebody said to me at one point, “Would you risk your job and your career on signing that act?” That’s a big thing. And there are very few acts that would get that. But when you hear a band that is doing something special, or you hear music that you feel is unique and groundbreaking and at the same time you feel could have some sort of success, it’s definitely something that we would pursue and try to get involved with.
Taking away talent, which is clearly the X Factor of a band’s achievement, I would imagine what they’ve done on their own is a big influencing factor.
RS:
Oh, for sure. There are a lot of young bands that when they feel like when they get a manager, the work stops for them and all of a sudden stuff is going to happen. But the reality is once you have a manager, your manager should never be working harder than you as the band. It’s still the band’s job to make great music and promote themselves, because today- no one sells the band like the band. While a manager can help take their attention and focus off some of their business responsibilities, they need to spend that time tidying up their show and tidying up everything and just making sure the product that we’re selling and pushing out there is A+.
What are the key performance indicators?
RS:
It’s a combination of a bunch of things. You want to obviously see what the activity is. I talk to promoters and club bookers and agents all day long, and everyone hears about the new hot band in that market, and it’s one of those things where you have to keep your ear to the ground on everything obviously, but you can easily tell these days what people are talking about in real time. Twitter is an amazing thing, because you can go and search Twitter and it’s real time what people are thinking and talking about. You can tell if a band is playing on Tulsa on a Tuesday. You can Twitter and search the name and see who’s talking about it. That’s obviously a huge indicator of what the buzz is and what the kids are thinking about it.
How would you go about going from a local to a regional act?
RS:
The most valuable thing you can get especially now is, if a band wants to take a band out because they are friends with them that wins out nine out of ten times over knowing the manager or the agent. It’s all about bands. Because ultimately most bands are very protective of their image and who they tour with is a big part of that and the packaging. A lot of bands who are out on tour will bring a band that no one has ever heard of just because they are friends- and you can’t buy that. That is based on just hanging out and being a band and hanging out with friends and being friendly and just shooting the shit, because as you know most bands when they are in a town are lonely. They just want to hang out and have a beer.
It’s all about keeping up with people over social networking. Now more than ever it’s easier to be in contact with bands and famous celebrities through Twitter and through Facebook. I’d say the number one thing you can do is become friends with bands – local bands, regional bands, national bands. And that’s from just playing out and building your own reputation so they’ve heard of you as much as you’ve heard of them. But even unknown bands still have friends take them out on tours.
I often advocate people co-writing or people doing gig trades or whatever it is they can to get conversation currency with a bigger artist. Are there local and regional acts that actually get through to the bigger acts?
RS:
It’s funny, the Counting Crows have had some big success. But Augustana is one of Adam Duristz’s favorite bands. They were out on tour with us last summer, they were out on tour with us this summer, and he loves having them around and he loves hanging out with them. It’s more than just, “Do you guys want to hang out with us?” He makes them a part of their show. Do they hang out with bands in Oklahoma? I’m sure they do. A lot of the guys in the band are producers and players and work with a lot of young bands. So I would say all of them are super aware of the music scene and all scattered across the country. One of our guitar players produced a record by a guy named Jane Ash.Jay Nash. Last year we did a summer tour and Jane AshJay Nash opened one of the shows. It was a great opportunity and he asked if we could do it, and we did it. There’s definitely – even on the level of Counting Crows – still bands they are friends with.They are always meeting new bands and listening to new music.
I guess the lesson there is, “Don’t be afraid to reach out.”
RS:
I think, go hang out. It’s always weird to say, “Do you want to check out my demo?” But it’s more like, “Hey, just hang out, and if you’re a good guy and you we enjoy spending time with you, you never know.”
Have you seen innovative strategies recently for people trying to establish themselves?
RS:
The most groundbreaking thing to me was the Radiohead model they did around “In Rainbows.” While everybody thought on the surface it was “Pay what you want for the record” and of course there were people that paid zero and there were people that paid $100. To me the real genius around that was that six months later, seven months later when they put their tour on sale, they had three or four million people that were Radiohead consumers, and they had their contact info and e-mail data and everything and were able to blast those to active Radiohead consumers, and needless to say their tickets blew out and it was an amazing tour. Everybody really focused on the CD part of it, but to me it was actually really quite amazing that they were able to reach their audience directly. And that’s where the business is shifting; it’s shifting to direct artist to fan interaction and cutting out all the middlemen.
So the mailing list become every important.
RS:
It’s probably the most important thing a band has at this point. Obviously you want to maintain your master and all your publishing, but the bigger the mailing list, the better shape you’re in.
What are some of the things that you see getting in the way for aspiring artists?
RS:
I think for bands I think ego and laziness gets in the way for a lot of young bands. Everybody thinks they’re the best band in the world… and a lot of them are very talented, but they still have to work. All these guys from Chris Martin to Bono to the Kings of Leon, every stadium, every arena act is still out there doing press and talking to people and at the end of it selling their band and promoting their band. You can’t ever stop that.
The second is that a lot of people still, when they hear no, kind of turn around with their tail between their legs and walk away. I think it’s really the people that are able to push and create and come up with groundbreaking marketing ideas and just really be left of center and break from the mold of traditional marketing and traditional record company releases and traditional touring and traditional merch and everything. There’s an old school and a new school record business and I think there are a lot of bands that have adopted the new school and embraced technology. And the labels were resistant to technology, and it helped put the record industry in a tailspin. I think you have to continue to be open to new ideas and always think out of the box. Otherwise you’re never going to get out of the box.
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Click for more information about Rich Schaefer and TAO.
