This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
Sean Beavan is a producer, engineer, mixer and musician who has had and continues to have a phenomenal career. You may not know Sean by name but you have heard his work. He has worked with Nine Inch Nails, Marilyn Manson, Guns and Roses, Unwritten Law from behind the board and as a member of the trip hop band 8mm you may have heard his work placed in One Tree Hill, Road Rules, the Real World or in several major motion pictures.
Tell me a little bit about how you got into the business, and how you wound up engineering, producing or mixed a string of platinum and gold albums?
SB:
I got into the industry by listening to AM radio in the early 70s- I was fascinated by it. I found a recording device in my parents’ drawer and got out the tapes and started listening to my favorite songs and the craziness that ensued. I started making tape loops, and I decided I wanted to make music. My goal was to become a producer. I figured the best way to do that was to learn how to play music, so I became a musician and played in bands and got on both sides of the glass eventually. Then I was lucky enough to meet up with Trent Reznor at the right point in time, and he and I started working together, and he took me on the ride.
Must’ve been a fun ride.
SB:
It was awesome.
I think it’s the first story I’ve heard where someone came into music not by being a guitarist or bassist in the analog age, but came into it being a music fan and doing home recording without having an instrument to record.
SB:
As a kid, I just loved music. I think the first record I bought was Dark Side of the Moon. And “Money” was the single. All the noises in the beginning, the cash register sound and the coins were so cool, and I did it myself. I found this recorder and read an interview where Roger Waters was talking about how they did the tape loops. So, I got out my mom’s sewing kit, just experimented with all of that. I even taped my sister talking on the telephone and put that into things and really just enjoyed the whole idea of recording. I became a musician from those experiences. I later played guitar, bass and drums and love playing and writing songs, but it was always from the aspect of doing all of it and not just necessarily doing the one thing.
You told your story up to the Trent Reznor point in all of three breaths. I’m a believer that luck favors the well prepared. Were you working with a lot of people, or was this just a chance meeting?
SB:
Oh yeah. I’d been playing for a long time, and I think the first time was for a talent show. A friend convinced me to sing lead, and I was kind of scared, but I did it, and then all the girls said, “Hey …” and I thought, “This is what I’m going to do.”
Don’t let anybody fool you. That’s the only reason we get into it at all. I loved doing that, and it was fun. I just started playing and singing and got to know a bunch of people, and as I was singing, I was the guy that ended up having to buy the PA system. So I got into all the microphones and mixing boards. I started mixing when I wasn’t playing in a band, and I ended up mixing every original band in Cleveland live in the 1980s. So I became friends with every musician in town, and Trent (Reznor) was one of the musicians. He and I happened to be in the two rival bands in town, but we both respected each other a lot. I was mixing live for his band, and he played keyboards for me when I was making demos.
What were these bands called?
SB:
It was 1984 or 1985. The big bands in Cleveland were Nation of One – the band I was in – and Trent’s band, with Andy Kubiszewski from Stabbing Westward, a band called Exotic Birds. Chris Vrenna was playing drums in it at the time. When they’d play, I’d mix them. Trent would pop into the studio and play on my demo tapes. And when he listened to the demo tapes, he said, “Wow, these sound awesome. Do you want to mix my demos?” And I said, “Yeah, sure.” I was originally trying to get him in my band, but then when I heard his demos, I said, “Holy cow.” So, I mixed the demos for “Pretty Hate Machine” which got him a record deal. And I said, “Anything you need me to do, I’d love to do.” And, I ended up working with him. We would later work on The Downward Spiral album together.
And that became the Pretty Hate Machine album…
My read on producers, particularly in the late 1980s and 90s was that you went through a period where everyone wanted to hire you when you had a hit, and then there was a giant lull lull. Most guys were usually hit or miss and didn’t last very long. But you’ve worked steadily for 20-some years now. Obviously you had a handful of big successful records, but was there any trick above and beyond that to working consistently?
SB:
I don’t know. I’m always interested in the next thing, and I’m definitely interested in the job. For me, the process is every bit as important as having hits. I don’t really care about having hits. I wish I’d cared more, because I’d have more money. But I really just care about the music.
I love working with bands that are doing something cool or interesting. Luckily for me, I happened to luck into some really cool music that people tend to like and tend to put on their top 50 record lists and stuff. I guess by having a resume like the one I’ve compiled, I’ve attracted records like that, like Slayer’s God Hates Us All, where you’re doing something and you know it’s going to become an industry standard.
I certainly knew you from Pretty Hate Machine, and the work you did with Marilyn Manson and Slayer, because I went through… well, I continue to go through a pretty awkward metal / industrial phase.
SB:
If you dug it once, you never stop liking it.
What I was getting around to is that you’ve really done a lot. 8mm is a band you play in now with your wife, right? ***Editors note 8mm is a trip hop massive attack / Portishead sounding group***
SB: Yes.
That’s really quite diverse. How have you convinced folks outside the genre for which you became known that you’d be a great fit?
SB:
It’s funny, my manager Shannon is really into the idea of being a renaissance man and always trying to change it up and do something new and cool or off the wall and different to keep people guessing and make them realize what kind of potential you have. I’ve always been interested in all types of music; I love everything. If Frank Sinatra was alive today, I would’ve been pushing to do a Frank Sinatra record. I just love that kind of music. So, when I started deciding that I wanted to do some music where I was writing for television or film or soundtrack-style music, the idea of writing in 8mm style, the more Portishead/Massive Attack/David Lynch-style soundtrack idea really appealed to me. I loved the fact it was very different than the super heavy, saturated stuff that I was known for. It was a real love that I had. So I was going for what I loved and what would also expand the boundaries people saw me in.
Definitely mission accomplished. I hears some of your 8mm writing and thought, “Wow … that guy?”
SB:
It’s funny, because my stuff has never been A&R driven. When I get gigs, and when people call me up and say, “I really want you to work on this record,” it’s the bands. They heard a record I did and fell in love with it, and the band asked the A&R guy, “Can we work with him?” And if he’s nice enough, he arranges to meet me. I got lucky that way. There was a Thrice record I did a few years ago, and they were interested because they’d heard a few records I’d mixed. One of their favorites was a Palo Alto record called Heroes and Villains. And Palo Alto is a much more expansive, U2ish kind of band that has some beautiful melodies and soaring strings and things and beautiful Radiohead-type guitars. They’d also heard Slayer’s God Hates Us All and really loved that record. What they wanted was a record that could run that breadth and gamut. So when it was pummeling you it was pummeling you, and when it was beautiful, you were immersed in that beauty. And they thought, “This is the guy that can do it.” It was really fun doing that record.
Are you doing mostly mixing these days?
SB:
Yeah. Mostly mixing. It gives more time for 8mm. Producing takes so much time out of the year, and I try to do more mixing so I have more time to write.
It seems like it’s much less of a sales process and less involved. Like you’re cleaning something up.
SB:
Exactly. You’re more imparting your taste filter on top of what is already done. They’ve obviously built something and sculpted it into what they want it to be, and then they’re asking you to put your overall taste over the top of it and make it do what they want it to do next, whether they want it to be more hyped or more beautiful or more hard edged. You direct it from there. I love that aspect of it. Plus, with mixing, I can mix practically anything. I get it once it’s in the mix stage. It can be country, dub stuff, jazz. I understand it at that point. Producing, I really have to get it right away and feel like I know exactly the direction the band wants to go in and run from there. There is less of a pool of people you can work with in producing in order to offer them the best. I don’t want to just take a gig when I know there is someone out there that would be able to do it better justice than I would. I have to know balls to bone that I’m the guy, and that I would make the best record for a band. Less of those things come about. I might get one or two a year, and that’s good for me.
That means when you’re really willing to produce something, you love it.
SB:
For sure. And I have to, because otherwise I would be blank and wouldn’t know what to do next.
Let’s talk a bit about business now, because you were a guy with a band making a name for itself in Cleveland back in the days of posting flyers everywhere. And now you have all this musical experience and you know all the executives in the traditional system. So, in theory you could leverage a lot of favors. But here you are self-releasing and doing your own thing. What are you finding? What is working for 8mm, and what is not? What has worked to make your own music fly?
SB:
One of the revelations is just how hard it is to market music. I used to have a little more of a producer’s bias about making records, and you get angry about the budget. You see the record’s budget, and the marketing budget is three times what it is. You say, “Just give me a little bit more so I can get these strings.” It seems counter-intuitive, and then you realize the other side: making the record is the given. You have to have a great record, but there’s so much more that is involved and goes on. It’s definitely made me appreciate a good, solid marketing plan and people who get the kind of music you’re doing. It’s hard work for sure, but I love it. With 8mm, we never looked at going to majors with it, because that wasn’t what we wanted it to be about. It was more that we really wanted to be able to do licensing as the main thrust of the band. We’ve been lucky enough to license practically everything we’ve written. That’s been very nice for us.
Tell me about how you accomplished that. The volume of calls I get asking “How do I license my music?” is amazing. And I sent people to aggregators, because I figure you almost have to be on the phone 24-7 to be on the phone at the right time for your one particular swatch of music when you have Sony Music calling on the other line with all of western music.
SB:
Absolutely. You can look at it as a completely daunting task, but the thing that an independent thing has going for them is that they don’t have the baggage of all the legal stuff that a big major label has, and just the hoops that have to be jumped through to get the publishing company and the record label to agree to the deal on the licensing end. As an independent you can say to the music supervisor, “And I own all the publishing.” And they say, “Oh!” It becomes much easier to deal, because they only have to deal with one person and can make the deal easier. You have actually a distinct advantage being indie in that regard. Obviously it’s great to have champions, and my suggestion is to get on the phone to every licensing house out there and try to get your music to them. We were lucky enough to get our manager and our record label that we put Songs to Live and Die By on to get in touch with Lyle Hysen at Bank Robber Music, who championed our music and has done an amazing job licensing us out to people. Before that, we had licensed several pieces through friends we had in the industry. We just got lucky on a couple things. Once you get a couple of things going, people look at it and say, “Oh, I know that band.” It’s like rubbing the Buddha belly. Once someone has done it, people feel freer to do it.
So, you found there has not been a stigma once you’ve been placed? I always wondered how a creative ad agency would take a group like The Heavy, who had a lot of placements in Kia ads, but I’m seeing it pop up in four or five other commercials, and I’m stunned.
SB:
I’m stunned by that too. The advertising industry seems to look at it more as, for example, if you get a song in a car commercial, as long as that song doesn’t appear in another car commercial, that’s usually the sticking point on the legal that they do. I guess it makes sense. They’re selling a feeling. If your song has been used in a Jaguar commercial, then someone selling dresses or caviar is going to say, “We can even utilize that in cross marketing and use that same song.” All of a sudden they hear it, and it evokes the same feeling. They don’t know where they heard it, but all of a sudden emotionally it’s there. Music is like that. It’s about memory and emotion, and it’s emotion first. If you relate something swanky to that music, you’re going to automatically think the product that’s being sold now is swanky too. You can use that to your advantage as a marketing firm. I think it’s kind of genius.
It’s bizarre. You’re kind of a different case, because you had a lot of traction in the industry and relationships you could leverage. But I find a lot of people have a hard time balancing being persistent with being annoying. How did you walk that fine line before you came on with Bank Robber?
SB:
We’re a team. Juliette and I are a duo, and we’re actually a trio now because we have a drummer now as well. Juliette and I do all the business, and my business is mostly creative, and then Juliette does the day-to-day. She’s on every social networking site and is constantly promoting the band online. This is one of the places we really were able to glom onto early. We had a really heavy presence on MySpace when MySpace was the thing, and we got tons of music supervisors listening to our music on MySpace and writing to us and saying, “Hey, would you consider us using this song and this advertisement or show?” And there were some independent filmmakers, and there was no money, but what they were doing was kind of cool, and we liked the way it looked and thought, “Sure, we’ll do that.” We started opening up to that kind of idea. It was mostly Juliette and our manager Shannon who was also handling some of those social networking sites that really helped with that. We really got a lot of traction out of MySpace when it was the site to listen to music on. That was a big point for us.
Today it seems that a great deal of the MySpace experience is sifting through people trying to leave flash comments on your site.
SB:
Yeah. MySpace screwed up. First of all, they did something with the code and the program that made it not work most of the time. That right there caused all kinds of havoc. And then they made it so easy for people to run these horrible bots. And every decision they made on messaging was poor, and they took a site that was awesome and turned it bad. In 2004 and 2005 it was great. It was so much fun and so easy to find really cool music. I mean, there would be one guy in his bedroom in Iowa, and I would say, “Oh my God, he’s my favorite artist.” It was so easy. We have a daughter who was young at the time, and she would just be listening to everything. I thought that if I had this when I was a kid, everything would’ve been amazing. They just really screwed up, and Facebook was smart enough to slide right in there. I’m sure finding the right way to utilize the new social networking will be the next wave for the next group of people. We were lucky enough to be able to parlay MySpace and that social networking. We were in the top 3 trip hop bands on MySpace for four or five years. It helped.
I’m going to switch gears. What advice did you give classically and what do you give now about selecting the right producer, mixer and engineer? Because that’s a huge decision, especially now that it’s really all the artists’ money again. A vast majority of the records being made today are self -funded vs. label funded.
SB:
For me, if you’re a band on a very limited budget and looking to get the most professional-sounding thing out there, I would spend most of your money on mixing. Obviously, production is super important, because it’s much easier to mix things that are produced well. Mixing is a black art, not unlike mastering. There aren’t that many people that can do it really well. There are plenty out there that are looking for work too, so you can definitely get a better deal on it than you used to be able to in the Halcyon days of the 80s and 90s. But that would be my big thing. It’s kind of like what Al Jourgensen said to Trent Reznor when we were starting the Nine Inch Nails tours. He said, “The most important thing to think about when you go out on the road is to take a great monitor engineer so you can hear yourself well.” And Trent turned to me and said, “No, the most important thing is that the people in the front row think the band sounds awesome, so I’m bringing a front house guy.” So that’s what I did. Because Trent knew that no matter how crappy it sounded on stage for him, it sounded awesome up front, and the fans were getting what he wanted them to hear. Those are the kinds of things that are important. You definitely need to have your priorities straight.
Any other parting words of advice to people coming up?
SB:
The record is just the starting point. You have to work to make a great record, and don’t stop if it’s just “good enough” in your opinion. You have to stop at “great.” And then when you’re at “great,” you have to start working. Because it’s up to you to promote it, and up to you to do everything. You have to have a show that separates you from the herd and have a show that you yourself would go to.
And that’s a big deal, especially in this market, where live is going to be where you will make the majority of your money. You have to provide people with an incentive to go see your show, and not just a show. Because now, every moment of every day, I have six or seven things I could do that are really fun and interesting. You have to make yours more fun and more interesting than what is on TV or in the movies or on the internet. You have to really provide someone with a reason to come see you, and don’t ever expect someone to do it just for you. You have to give them something important and special.
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You can check out Sean’s band 8mm and do yourself a favor and follow Sean on Twitter.
Established music manager Peter Malkin seems to think you shouldn’t… Enjoy.
Should An Artist Sign A 360º Deal? from Peter Malkin on Vimeo.
Ilyana Kadushin is a performer, writer, actor and producer. I met Ilyana recently and she mentioned that she was doing very well in voice-overs. As one of the most common questions I get asked by musicians is “How to I get into Voice-overs to supplement my income?” I knew I had to interview her.
Ilyana’s voice-over performing work spans from numerous national commercials, animation and video games; like Lord of The Rings and audio books. Ilyana has narrated the audio books of Stephenie Meyer’s best-selling Twilight Series. She and her partner run a successful recording studio called Lythion Music in Brooklyn and create original music, score film and commercials and produce up and coming artists as well.
Ilyana, thanks for your time. Tell me about how you came to be a musician in New York and about your background. How did you end up doing voiceovers?
IK:
I was born in Coral Gables outside of Miami, but was not there very long, because my father got a job in Maryland. But I eventually made my way to New York and studied at New York University at the Experimental Theater wing of Tisch School for the Arts. It was such a great program and I thank my lucky stars I was placed at the Experimental Theater wing. Actually, when I was there it was called the Black Sheep of Tisch, and by the time I graduated it was the most intriguing program, and everyone wanted to transfer into the studio. What I loved about it was that I was learning about theater history and drama and performance and everything, but it was a very self producing, make your own vehicle, whatever your art form is going to be, but know how to produce and write and create your own vehicles sort of place. And that really became the core of the rest of my experience after I got out of NYU, because I was able to explore myself as not only an actor, but also as a musician and a writer and producer and find my strengths in all those areas. I was already steeped in music by the time I got out of NYU. I’ve always been a very vocal person, between singing and performing. I’ve also always been very interested in creating characters.
Did you go into Tisch thinking you were going to be on Broadway?
IK:
I think my goal was to learn as much as possible, find out what kind of performer I was. I was interested in theater, be it Broadway, off-Broadway, independent, film, sort of acting in general. I think when I entered into NYU I was still learning what the performing arts field in New York was going to be, and where I was going to fit into it. It was all still in process. This is a voice person telling stories and creating characters through the voice. That was what brought me individually into the path of both music and voice performing. But those are separate paths I developed independently after I got out of NYU.
How did it come to pass that you now own your own studio and are producing music and doing a lot of voiceover work?
IK:
On the music side, I loved music and started throwing myself into as many experiences as possible. That means I went out and sang backup in many people’s bands. I recorded with a lot of different producers in studios. I wrote my own songs and performed as a singer / songwriter. I was just really allowing myself to explore as much as possible. It was really when I met my now Lythion Music business partner and husband James Harrell that I solidified my vision of what I wanted to do with music. Now I have this production company, which allows me to write for a variety of media, and it was through my voice performing and all the other acting work I did that I was able to afford to build my studio and my company.
Before we go forward too much, I’m very curious. I always tell people in what I do to go out and play with as many people as possible and record with as many people as possible. I’m guessing that process was helpful in you putting together a business and networking. Can you elaborate on how you found these opportunities, and how you sought out people to collaborate with? Because in spite of all the connectivity we have today, I still get people telling me it’s difficult to find collaborators. What was your process in gigging out and recording as much as possible?
IK:
I am a super networker- it’s always been in my blood. I think that skill has a huge impact. I say the same things to people that ask my advice. You need to put your energy out there, talking to people and networking. Some people are very comfortable with that, and other people really have to learn it as a skill. For me, I was out in clubs. For example, there was this long-running performance party called Organic Grooves. I was very good friends with the producers and DJs and musicians, so occasionally I would go and sit in as a live vocalist for their events. They were insanely popular events, packed with people, and they’d be these huge dance parties. I would get seen by a lot of people and sing vocals with the DJs and live musicians. So afterwards I would talk to producers that would approach me and say, “Hey, do you want to try a track together?”
This was really when I was finding myself as a vocalist and a songwriter, not even really realizing I could be a producer myself and participate in the vision or a song. All those experiences of meeting people and going to their studios and learning about the different work ethics and collaborative styles were real learning lessons for me, but they came from me just being out there. Sometimes I’d go see a band or meet a musician and say, “Hey, do you want to get together and do a writing session? I’d love to hear how our voices blend or how our music works together.” And then they would ask me to sing backup for them live. Everything expanded out from there. I was always putting myself out there and being open to working with different people, and not getting too locked into working by myself in a little bubble.
Is there any one thread that these experiences taught you, or anything you took away? I know it’s really hard to distill that much time but what was the lesson of these experiences?
IK:
Every band I backup sang in or every recording or writing session gave me this internal flexibility as a writer/producer/performer. I learned to be able to meet somebody halfway and be a good listener as well as being able to express and communicate my own style. I think being somebody that’s easy to work with is really helpful. There are a lot of talented people and a lot of people with cool styles but when you are enjoyable to work with or people feel like they can collaborate with you and you’re willing to meet them halfway, I think you leave a really good impression on people and open yourself up to great experiences that help you build who you are.
Switching gears a little. I know a lot of musicians say, “I really want to get into that voiceover thing.” What’s the deal with that? I hate to start so basic, but how does someone get into that?
IK:
Actually, voice performing was something completely separate from my music business life. I was starting off as an actor, and that path and my music path were pretty different, because it was a different set of connections. I got an agent, and I was working in theater and independent film and commercials and basic theater. I was out living my life as an actor. I was very focused on voice and voice performing specifically. It built from there. I was doing commercials in television and radio, and I was doing narrations and animation, cartoons, video games. I was all over the place in the voice performing world.
I’m going to guess you had to have a certain number of credits before an agent picked you up, right?
IK:
Well, actually what happened was that I was freelancing with a few smaller agencies. The thing with the whole entertainment industry is that as an actor/performer there is the catch-22 that you need a certain number of reputable credits to land the agent, but then they don’t want to talk to you until you’ve already gotten the work, but they are the ones that help you get the work. Generally I think for most people something ends up loosening up in that realm and you get the gig when someone wants to hire you enough, and then you become more appealing to an agent.
I can only speak for myself, and with my story but I had booked a couple big national commercials, and came into this moment where the agents I was freelancing with really wanted to sign me. Very often people will want to freelance with you to test drive your relationship, and then they say, “Once we get through this test drive, then we’ll talk about the contract and really working together in a fuller capacity.” Once I booked a few commercials I was able to decide who I wanted to sign with, because they were all interested in signing once the saw I was going to be a viable actor and voice performer. I’m now signed and have been to an agency that was one of the first agencies I did work with. Abrams Artists Agency in New York. I love them. The audio book world has become the most significant by nature of the franchise I started with. I get asked all the time in interviews, “How did you get into audio book narration?” It was just that I was already doing voice performing, and I started to see all these really amazing actors from film and stage that were doing audio book narration. I thought, “Wow, this seems like an area of the voice performing world that would require the most acting skills and performing and really challenge me.” I also had a gut feeling that it was something I would really take to and do well with. I was fortunate that one of the first audio book narration jobs was that they were auditioning actresses to narrate Stephanie Meyer’s Twilight series. And Twilight was one of the first books I booked, which was amazing.
What advice would you give musicians that want to get into voice-over performing?
IK:
There are a lot of things I would say about it. Just for the nuts and bolts of it, to be a good voiceover performer is really about being a good actor. Even though a musician may feel, “Hey, I spend a lot of time on my voice, I’m a good vocalist, I can do this.” For some, that might be true if they have the acting chops or are comfortable as an actor and not only as a vocal person. That’s a big part of it, but not everyone can do it. If you feel like in addition to being a musician, you can persuade and entice people with your voice, I would say that a demo is absolutely in line, and specifically some sort of commercial demo. I think very often agents and people in the industry want to see that it’s something you can do. The commercial hurdle would be the first hurdle you would need to prove yourself at to get into any other area of voice performing.
And if you don’t have any commercial credits to your name, do you invent them?
IK:
Yes. Absolutely. A lot of people’s initial first demos – including mine – until they have enough broadcasted spots to cut their reel from actual spots, they create reels. In fact, I worked with one of the best guys in the business, who is no longer in the business, Richard Leonardi. He had a company, and he coached me and worked on scripts with me and chose something he felt I would be marketable for, then recorded my voice and cut sound effects and put it together so it sounded like on-air spots. Now actually my studio and my husband and I work solely through word of mouth. I now do that kind of service with a certain number of clients that are recommended to me. I will use my experience where I’ve worked with people and found scripts they were marketable for, coached them on it, did direction and they actually do the reel here in my studio.
So as well as original music, your studio Lythion is doing reels for people and commercials and everything?
IK:
Yes. We are a full-service music and sound production studio.
Tell me about running a studio. I know a lot of musicians want to get into that, but when they do, they end up saying, “Oh my God, what did I get myself into?” How do you divide the creative output of your studio?
IK:
Currently we do original music for scoring in television or film or when stage people approach us and ask us to write original music for them. That’s where we get to put in our own creative vision. We also work with managers and lawyers and have people send artists to us that are performers and songwriters. Usually talented people who are just starting out and are not necessarily confident enough to write their own material or want a collaborator to help write their material. We write and produce for other artists as well. Our time is divided between that kind of work and the voiceover work.
Here’s an example of where I get to put my own creativity into my music and use my studio: the documentary I just produced and rescored. We not only did the music and the sound here, but we also did the voiceover here. I have always had home studios in every apartment I lived in, when I lived in Manhattan and now in Brooklyn. I think it’s always been really valuable for us to have our own. I go and work in other people’s recording studios all the time. But to have a home base, which we jokingly call “Command Central,” where we know we can work at any hour of the day with an idea or something we want to put down is a very comforting feeling as an artist and producer. People can do that in any variety of ways. I know people that just have a laptop and Garage Band and a microphone and do it that way. That’s kind of the same idea behind how I started. I had a 4-track. Any way to get your ideas down and be able to do it in the comfort of your own surroundings is great.
So you grew into owning a studio? You were just buying different pieces of gear until one day you had a fully-fleshed-out studio and lived in Brooklyn where you had space for it?
IK:
It was a progression and development. Over time, my acting and voice performing work allowed me to build this studio and keep expanding it in terms of equipment or the amount of space I was able to designate in my home for a studio. That was it. I was committed to having that. If people know it’s something they have as a goal, just start small and then as you can keep expanding. If you know you are the type of artist that doesn’t really want or need that and doesn’t have the technical capability – I’m very fortunate that my business partner/husband is the engineer and producer and incredible designer – put your energy and focus on the other aspects of your development: your songwriter; your networking. Part of what’s helped me is that I’ve really refined my goals and am not going about it willy-nilly. I am trying to invest my time and energy into things I think are going to be beneficial for my particular artistic vision.
My struggle personally has been the relinquishing of the ego that I can’t do everything and just acknowledging the fact that there are things in my business I can’t do if it’s going to be run correctly. There are tasks about which I’ve just had to say, “I had better get better at the handful of things my talents are more suited for and hire someone else to do the things I’m lousy at…”
IK:
Yes. And doing too many things you are not suited to doing can make you feel fragmented or like you’re spread too thin and unable to develop what you need to develop. My gauge is that, when you’re doing something you’re really destined to be doing, you can feel the difference. People will say, “I feel comfortable in my own skin” or “I feel really passionate.” Or they will have this feeling come over them like it’s just what they are meant to be doing. I always say to people, “When you are doing something and you have that feeling, take note. Because that’s something that you should be putting more into and feeding that.”
Any parting words of advice?
IK:
I think there’s a real draw right now in our celebrity worshipping culture to be musicians and actors and artists for the sole purpose of becoming a celebrrity. I think that can create a really weak foundation if you’re not really connected to and passionate about what you’re doing. I just say to people, “I hope you are passionate about what you’re doing and have a really clear vision of your goals.” The musicians that I love who have also have become recognized over time are the ones that have been committed to it for a long time. It takes tenacity and perseverance and a lot of commitment. You can’t just half-ass it.
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You can learn More About Ilyana by visiting her Studio page Lythion Music, checking out her blog and / or learning more about the film she is producing.
This is part two of a two part interview with Andy Karp a manager and marketing executive by way of a very successful career in A&R at Atlantic Records (Signed Kid Rock, Simple Plan, Click 5, Porcupine Tree, Skillet and many others). If you missed part one you can check that out – here.
I know after you left Atlantic you could’ve gone back into another label job somewhere but you opted not to. I know because we have spoken of it in the past that we both find some major flaws in the label system today. From your vantage point as someone who was enormously successful at major labels – what do you think is the most flawed about the way these labels are operating today?
AK:
I don’t know what the most flawed thing is, because there are a lot of flaws. But they are also in a very tough spot. There’s no obvious answer to fix their problems that anybody can give them. I tend to think more philosophically about these things. I think it’s better if you talk more about the major labels in general and not specifically about Atlantic, because Atlantic is one of the major labels that’s doing particularly well. They have a much more pronounced digital strategy than any other major by leaps and bounds. That’s an area where they’re being very forward thinking.
The question is more from an A&R perspective. This may not be fixable. The majors have a huge problem, which is they carry enormous overhead and some of them still have 150-200 employees. It’s a very difficult burden to carry in this kind of environment. Philosophically, my thoughts tend to be that when people are rejecting your product and the vast majority of the music you put out, the thing you should do is go left. And it seems like majors are instead doubling down on mainstream stuff. The problem is not that it’s mainstream. There are not a lot of people out there that are bigger suckers for a good pop song than me. The problem is that happens when you are operating only within very fine-tuned parameters and parameters that are shrinking and whatever Top 40 is playing now – Top 40 is a format that is reflective of its audience and a completely research-driven format and the audience is fickle and changes very quickly and things fall out of favor very quickly.
Right now, Top 40 is incredibly urban focused, whereas a year ago it wasn’t nearly as much. If you’re a major, what you’re doing is focusing on acts that can fit right between those very fine lines. But the problem is that between the time when you find the acts and record the music and find the songs you think are hits, those parameters can change. The creative part of it is very expensive now because it has to fit. If it doesn’t fit, you don’t have a shot. You put your track out and promote it through these big media driver approaches that people have always done – you make a video and work it and spend money on radio promotion and fly the bands around to have appearances at radio stations. What ends up happening is you sell a boatload of singles. It’s a really tough bargain for most labels. The problem is they have conditioned themselves to operate in this fashion, and I don’t know that they have the wherewithal to try a different approach.
They are instead doing 360s, and most of the labels are not capable of exploiting 360 rights. I don’t even have a philosophical problem with 360 deals as a person that is outside of it and manages artists, provided they can exploit the rights with best in class services. Most of the majors haven’t proven they can do that. The truth is, most of the majors should’ve been asking for 360 type deals 25 years ago when they were writing big checks for tour support. Now they are asking for more rights and giving less in return. And the problem is, it’s survival for them. I understand why they are trying to do it, but it makes it all the less likely that any band with a real following will want to do that type of deal without getting a massively front-loaded deal. And truthfully, if you’re asking for 360 deals while focus is on the type of acts that sell singles that nobody is ever going to want to go see in concert, you’re minimizing that chances that those 360 rights, those merch rights, are going to be valuable, because who wants to buy t-shirts for acts that don’t have any real staying power? It’s an odd Faustian bargain. I would think you’d be much more likely to want to spend money to build the live base of things that are left of center. Those are the acts that have real fans.
So how is your new company operating given that this is the environment that we all deal with?
Artist Haven is a management branding entity. Our goal is purely focused on fan building. That’s essentially it. We are very much of the belief that the future of the entertainment business – not just the music business – is going to be simply catering to people that care. And this is not rocket science. It’s not like we’re the first people to come across this idea. But if you look at the landscape, we have just been talking about how majors have this problem where they are catering to people that are fans of one song rather than of an artist. People that are fans of artists spend money on that act. People that are fans of songs only buy those songs.
Is there anything artists can do to make people buy into them as a part of culture vs. a disposable song? Is that something you can manipulate or is just something some people have?
AK:
Some people do have it and some people don’t, that’s a fact. That’s one of those things you become hyper aware of doing A&R. If you don’t recognize that, you’re going to be in A&R for about a year and then will be off working at Pluck University (*** This is Andy mocking the fast food chicken job that I had prior to being his intern and then assistant- I was 19…shut up…***). I think it all starts with music. That’s it. If your music is not great, and if people aren’t connecting with it, it won’t matter. In terms of being a creative person trying to figure out how to make your art better and perfect your art, you want to be different and distinctive, but at the same time, you have to be observant and see which songs people react to at your gigs and know why they react to them. If you have a tune that the crowd always goes crazy about, and that song is a legitimate expression of what your band is about then you should write more things like that. Look at these songs and see why they work. It’s about never taking your audience for granted, treating your fans like investors instead of like customers. They are customers, but I like to think of them more like investors. The reason “investors” is a term that works for me is because people are really passionate about the bands and the artists they love. When the music really represents times in your life and is a soundtrack to you, you have a very emotional investment in the creative output of that artist. That’s why I like to think of it as being more than just a customer. I think in fact using the term investor is less crass and callous than calling someone a customer.
I never liked the word either- I agree with you.
AK:
What you simply have to do is, always be true to yourself, because people react to authenticity. In doing that, you also have to be really smart and understand how the relationship between artist and fan works. It’s a weird thing, because fans expect an enormous amount from you and have a lot of impressions built up that may not always be grounded in reality. You have to make sure that you’re never hosing them. If you’re an act and on a major and put out a record, and then your label wants to put out a deluxe version of that record because it finally started to sell, that’s nice that you can jack the price up a couple dollars and get more fans out of people that just bought the single, but you just stuck it to a bunch of fans that bought the first record first by putting that deluxe version out.
Said by somebody that has clearly been stung by that exact ruse.
AK:
Right. I think it’s terrible. It’s an incredibly short-sighted approach. You can certainly say it’s just one thing, but it doesn’t take a lot to make people distrust your motives. That doesn’t mean you can’t make money, or that fans always want the artists they care about to exist in this little vacuum, and nobody else should know about it. It really is more about whether people believe that the music is authentic and is coming from the artist’s heart and is a real expression of what the artist is about, and whether or not the fans feel that the artist is taking them for granted. Are their ticket prices more expensive? Did they pay more to be part of a fan club and were supposed to get the rights to get prime ticketing, and then you went to the show and found out you paid four times what some other guy sitting right next to you paid for the ticket, because he got it late when the broker opened up seats? That’s the kind of stuff that can be hard to prevent but really leaves a bad taste in fans’ mouths. Make your merch better than other people’s merch. If you spend $20 on a shirt, don’t make your t-shirt $45. It’s about understanding little things like that, and that the trust the investor puts in the artist is a sacred contract. If you are dismissive of it, they will leave. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure that out. Think about the bands you love yourself. How would you like to be treated or rewarded for your consistent patronage and support of their music? That’s really it.
You’re totally right. Now, you were telling me about how you are building fan bases with Artist Haven. What else is going on with that?
AK:
We’re not just doing music. I think if there’s one thing that’s particularly interesting these days is that anyone that creates content, and anyone that creates media is all in the same boat. We’re all floating in the same river, which is trying to get people to pay attention and pay for things.
I knew we (Content creators and the industries surrounding them) were all in trouble when I heard the porn business was struggling too.
AK:
I remember reading an article about that, and I was pretty surprised by the number of analogous problems they were having with record companies. If you think about it, they were approaching it the same way. They were policing copyright violations, people using their content without paying for it, creating packages that have additional content. It’s actually kind of fascinating, and somebody should probably write an article about it for Atlantic or The New Yorker or Vanity Fair or something like that. But anyone that produces content is in this boat. The bottom line for us is that nobody can predict exactly what systems are going to be in five or ten years. I tend to think it’s going to be subscription based, where music is going to be a service, and it’s all streamed. That would seem to make a lot of sense, but we’re certainly nowhere near that happening. I can’t envision music being free. We’re trying to take a unique approach to every artist we handle. In some cases it may make a lot of sense to give an artist’s music away. In other cases, it may make sense not to and to focus on very elaborate packaging and content to sell to fans that want vinyl or surround-sound mixes on Blu-Ray. I do think that part of the problem is because those of us at majors – and I include myself in this because I was there, whether I believe in it or not – really devalued music over the last 15 years. As a result, we deserve part of the blame for the mess we’re all in. I think it will ultimately come down to figuring out who your audience is and serving them somehow. If it means giving away music to get more fans, then great, if it will build another area of your business. But we’re not afraid to do whatever it takes to create that audience. At the end of the day, it’s always going to be about finding ways to sell things to people that care. So, if we give things away it’s going to be to build a different area of the business.
Artist Haven is handling a couple different acts. I have a self-help author, a band called Cynic, a guitar player named Justin King. They’re all very different, and none of them are Top 40. It doesn’t mean we wouldn’t work with something Top 40, but it means we’re trying to focus on projects where if we do our job right and they do their jobs right we can help our clients find people that are really passionate about what they do.
To learn more about Andy Karp and his new company please visit Artist Haven and check out his Jazz Quartet.
Andy Karp is a manager and marketing executive by way of a nineteen-year career at Atlantic Records. He is also a gifted multi-instrumentalist and one of the few people I know who can play a Chapman Stick. Andy started in the Radio Promotion department and moved into A&R where he eventually became The Executive Vice President / head of A&R. During his tenure Andy signed Kid Rock, Simple Plan, Skillet, The Click Five, Porcupine Tree, Skillet and David Garza. My first real job in the industry was as Andy’s assistant at Lava / Atlantic. Andy was kind enough to take the time to share with me his perspective on the ever-changing business and catch me up with what he is up to at his new company Artist Haven. This is part one of a two part interview.
Tell me about how you got started in the music business, and how you got started playing music.
AK:
I started playing music as a little kid. I took piano lessons from age 7 to 18. I probably didn’t practice until I was about 13, but my mom was very patient and tolerant, and I kept playing anyway. I started playing bass when I was 14 or 15 and drums a year later. I played sax for a few years in the school orchestra, and all sorts of other odd things. I played the vibra-harp for a year. I just loved music, and wasn’t particularly good at it, although by the time I stopped taking piano lessons, I was a fairly decent piano player. But I was going to college at that point, and I felt you could only play so many instruments, so I focused on bass. I never really took myself seriously s a drummer until the last couple years. I was studying music and theory in college and some pretty avant-garde music, and engineering and all these kinds of things. I knew I really wanted to play. That was my biggest goal.
Once I graduated, I started playing in bands and had the misfortune of not being a really great singer. If you’re not a singer, you’re always going to be reliant on finding the right band at the right time and the right vehicle for you to do what you want to do. And that adds a lot more variables to it – as if there weren’t enough already. I had done an internship at MCA in their A&R and publishing divisions when I was a junior, and as I was playing in bands, I thought, “Maybe I can get a job at a label” so I could move out of my mom’s while I was looking for the perfect musical situation. I managed to get a job in the mail room of Profile Records and spent six weeks there hauling giant mail bags a couple blocks a few times a day filled with hip hop records. I managed to get a job as a gopher in the promotion department of Atlantic Records. I started there in September of 1989, and I stayed at Atlantic for 19 years. That’s really the story.
Obviously there are a few little details missing. You don’t become head of A&R just hanging around for 19 years, at least not in my recollection.
AK:
(Laughs) Back in the old days, if you stayed there long enough, they eventually just gave you a department to run. But, no, I spent about a year as a gopher and then another 5 ½ years as the assistant to the head of the promotions department – Andrea Ganis – who is still there and was a great mentor and friend to me and still is. When Lava Records started in 1995, Jason Flom hired me to do A&R for him. The reason he hired me was simply because I was fortunate enough to have an encyclopedic knowledge of bands and producers and engineers and all kinds of stuff. I don’t know quite why that was, but I think my brain just decided it was going to remember something, and that’s what it was. It might have been better if it was quantum mechanics, but unfortunately it was engineers of Scorpions Records.
The editorial note here is that I’ve actually seen you engaged in a dialogue with Matt Pinfield, and I was terrified.
AK:
Matt’s pretty good. He’s a good guy, and we always have a lot of fun talking about obscure alt rock or punk bands. He is kooky like me in that same way. But Flom hired me because I was somebody that knows all these bands and figured I would eventually run into something that was pretty good. He gave me a shot. I didn’t sign anything for a year and a half. I was very fortunate that Lava had acts. And you were there then, Rick, so you know how it worked. The first artist I signed was David Garza, who you and I both think is brilliant. And the second act was Kid Rock. And when Kid Rock broke, it went from there. It was a good second act to sign. It worked out well for everyone.
Clearly that gave you more chances to sign more artists as an A&R guy. When you sign a successful act like Kid Rock, they tend to be more lenient about letting you sign more.
AK:
That’s true. But I never took a lot of swings. There are two very definitive schools of thoughts in terms of how you approach A&R, whether at a label or at a management company. A&R is such a broad term now. It really is essentially quality control in the modern context and creative direction. That is applicable in a lot of different areas. One school of thought is that you can’t have hits if you don’t put records out, so therefore you should sign as many things that are good as you can, because at least in the context of major labels at that time, if you have big success at anything, people don’t remember the failures. If you have one success out of eight things you put out, people don’t remember the other seven. But that was never my school of thought, and part of it was because I didn’t like enough stuff to do it that way.
So of the guys in the last 20-30 years that have sold a sizable chunk of records, I’d be willing to bet I’ve signed fewer things than almost all of them. And it’s not saying I’m so good or have such a good batting average. It’s just saying that I had a different approach. One of the things that held me back in the music business was the fact that I couldn’t approach acts inherently dishonestly and tell them things I didn’t sincerely believe, like, “You’re going to be hugely successful, and here’s what we’re going to do.” If I tell that to 10 bands, you know there could be a very good shot that you’re just bullshitting to 10 different acts. It’s so hard to have anything that’s successful, and truthfully, most A&R people don’t even have one thing that’s successful. That’s just empirical. But I never felt comfortable going and talking up nonsense to close deals. I was more from the “Look, I really believe in this, and we’re going to do everything we can do. You know what the chances of success are. What I can promise you is that I’m going to do everything I can possibly do, give you the best advice I can possibly give you and do everything to steer you through the label and give you the best shot humanly possible.” That was an approach that I felt was the morally right thing to do, and it worked for me because it was consistent with my personality. And I never wanted to be one of those clichés.
It was certainly not the pervasive methodology of the trade.
AK:
Certainly not at the time. Things are very different now because I’ve been out of the major label system for two years, and happily so. But this is the first time in my memory where signing to a major is not necessarily one of the top goals for most artists. That’s a fairly unusual place for labels to be.
What’s funny is, I kind of feel like – and I do have some statistics to back this up in terms of keyword search volume, and I can’t say whether these are real musicians or not – but people searching online, “how to get a record deal” is off the charts whereas “how to market and sell my music” is much less. I realize that’s not a representative sample, but I think most musicians feel about the labels like most men feel about Tila Tequila. “Oh my God She’s disgusting, but I don’t think I’d turn down a date with her if it was offered.”
AK:
That’s a fair point. But I would simply ask whether that is an accurate predictor. I wonder if you took that kind of a poll of the acts that are best positioned to be offered deals and have followings and can sustain some kind of independent business, whether it’s small or large, and have empirical proof that people care about their music feel the same way. That might be a better gauge.
No question. I was not basing it on a representative sample. But I do think it’s funny that the prevailing mindset still is, “Please save me. Please escalate me to stardom.”
AK:
It’s interesting, because there probably has never been a time when that kind of “please hand it to me” attitude was a guarantee of failure, and now it is. Fifteen years ago it probably wasn’t that way. At least you could get to a certain level. The point is, I’ve seen it so distinctly that the people that work the hardest get the luckiest. It’s never been clearer. The big drivers of media become less influential. MTV has whatever audience it has, but it certainly isn’t a music audience. Commercial radio is losing influence every year as loses listeners. Young people don’t consume music through those big drivers anymore. As you start to see those things shift, it’s become super clear that nobody’s guaranteed to have a career. We used to be able to take people if they were really good and turn them into stars if you had the right material and the right look. Now, if that stuff succeeds it’s almost anomalous.
My take on the business, and mind you, I was out long before you were, and I definitely want to talk about what you saw changing. I was really out of the real system by 2004. But I found that even during my tenure it started to switch. It was less about A&R and more about M&A (Mergers and Acquisitions). It started to be about labels looking for existing businesses to acquire and fund. Is that apt?
AK:
I think that’s a fair point, if you look at your band as a business. We didn’t sit around in a meeting and say, “We’re only signing bands that have followings and can sell 75,000 records independently or make at least $200,000 per year independently.” No one sat around and figured that out. But if you talk about mergers and acquisitions, there’s a philosophical shift that happened, where the big euphemism became branding. Sometime in the mid-2000s branding became a business and an approach. It became a noun and a verb. When that shift happened, bands started to think of themselves as businesses, and labels started to look at bands as businesses just as they were looking into buying smaller labels that had a niche and could provide them acts that had a sales base and a fan base and could give them credibility with an audience that you can’t have as a major label because you serve every kind of consumer. They were also looking into buying into acts the same way they would buy into labels. That was a change philosophically. But now you see record sales continue to dwindle, and there’s logic to that approach, even if it wasn’t spoken and intentional.
Does that mean the shift on the labels side had become less about early grassroots development? Did it become about taking bands that are self sustaining to the next level, rather than taking bands from nowhere, to self sustaining and then upwards?
AK:
People love to say there’s no grassroots marketing or band development at labels. But I don’t think that’s really fair. That stuff does happen. It just is a question of whether or not they are good at it. In majors, there are some people that are very conscientious and incredibly hard working and very dedicated to their acts. I think those general dismissive comments that are frequently made about majors are not true. I spent enough time there to know there are people who are very conscientious about stuff like that. There are also people whose jobs are not to worry about that stuff and are about how to make the trains run on time and make the balance sheet. That’s the tension. Don’t think it doesn’t exist at indie labels too. Indie labels have to sell records and keep their lights on unless they are funded by someone that is independently wealthy and it’s a pure passion play. Those are businesses. It’s just that the tension is much more glaring in a major label system.
The grassroots thing and long-term marketing does work, but it has to be really under the radar. If you take a band like Porcupine Tree. Porcupine Tree is a band where we did three records on Atlantic and Lava Atlantic. The band just played Radio City Music Hall. Now they are licensed to Roadrunner. If you talked to them, I think they would tell you that the labels never really did much for them. I think we definitely contributed in some ways and not in others. In terms of a grassroots story, that’s a pretty distinct grassroots success. You’re talking about a band that had a large catalog and a small following in Europe and no following in the U.S., and now they can draw 5500 people in New York and have a business where if you had a 360 deal with them, you’d be very happy. I think the problem is that you take things like that that are left of center, and very often there is a lot of pressure to get those things out of the system because they don’t make sense. They don’t want you to waste people’s time on things that are in left field. And I tend to think the opposite way. When you’re trying to build something long term, the stuff that is most likely to find an audience is the stuff that’s a little skewed and not the stuff that’s right down the middle. If you can take a pop act and build an act, if the songs are good enough, I think that’s great and you can do that. But I think you’re more likely to find success with stuff that’s quirkier. And I think it’s too bad, because Porcupine Tree’s success could’ve been something that Atlantic could’ve trumpeted and taken a great deal of pride in, but there were really never a lot of supporters.
You can read the 2nd part of the article HERE.
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Check out more information on Andy’s company here or follow Artist Haven on Twitter.
I came across the first music business article I ever wrote recently. It was 1998 and I was about twenty four years old working at Lava / Atlantic Records at the time. I had just been made an A&R representative after years of sneaking into clubs at night and working as an A&R assistant during the day.
Me in 98' - Thin body / thick head.
I’m posting this not because any of it is relevant today but because I think it’s important to remember where the business was just a short time ago – labels were the only game in town… Musicians were still frustrated – they just had better scapegoats back then. If you need to get in the 1998 mindset just watch Titanic or listen to Harvey Danger’s “Flagpole Sitta”…
Google in 1998
The Following was originally published on Starpolish.com as an article called “The Art of Showcasing”.
I don’t know if any of the links still work. It had been edited at least once by someone else who updated my place of employment to Elektra (several years later) and added some MC Hammer reference that still baffles me. If this is your first visit to this blog… you’d best try a different article first.
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Working in A&R, I have seen literally thousands of bands in the last several years (I actually tried counting the bands I had seen at one point to try and talk my boss into giving me a raise; no, it didn’t work, but thanks for asking). Let me make an early disclaimer by saying that there is very little scientific about the showcasing process. This article is not meant to be a foolproof plan for how to get signed when you showcase; it is really just a collection of my experiences with what has worked or not worked for people in the past. The more I see what gets signed or what becomes a hit, the less I think I understand the record industry — so believe me, even on the other side of the fence there is confusion and frustration with this crazy business that we’ve chosen for ourselves. That being said…these are the things I hope you’ll be able to get out of this article:
(Or your mom really likes the new demos — is it time to cold-call record company presidents?) Ideally there are three things that I would strongly recommend you do before getting to the whole shopping and showcasing process.
Having been a musician myself for the last 10 years, I realize that the aforementioned tasks are easier said than done — but I promise you that these three things will be your guardian angels as you endure the showcasing process. If done incorrectly, this process can be as challenging and humiliating as going through puberty.
Your Team
OK, you say — on paper that sounds easy. But back to step one: How am I supposed to find a decent team? Well, once again there is no science to this, no set of rules I can give you that will bring you from point A to point B. I will say this: as you are playing clubs and developing your following, meet and talk to every band, manager and promoter you encounter. Your strength as a developing act will be the people that you know and the people you are able to trade favors with. Ask the big local act in your home town what they are doing for management or if they’ve encountered a lawyer that they like. Managers and lawyers do seem to find new clients from existing ones, so this is a very viable way of encountering potential team members. Also, research what managers, lawyers and agents are successful, and would understand your genre. Take meetings with everyone who will give you the time of day.
Even if nothing comes of these meetings, you should keep in friendly contact with these people — you never know when you might need one another for something. One more thing to keep in mind is that great bands make great managers and lawyers. If you are really having that much trouble building a team, perhaps you should spend more time focusing on perfecting your craft (writing better songs, playing more and better shows and building your following). In other words, if you build it, they will come. (For more detailed information about building your team, see The Music Attorney and Management ).
Demos
OK, I’ll work on putting my team together, or at least doing the right things to attract the right team members –but why is this guy babbling about good demos when he’s writing about showcasing I’ve found that good demos are usually the most important factor in finding a major label record deal and the most efficient way of generating enough label interest to get to the showcasing stage of your career. My advice on this front is beg, borrow or steal – in other words, do whatever it takes — to come up with the cash to make good demos before you start to showcase (See Producing a Demo/Early Album for more detailed information). You should try to find a local studio/engineer/producer whose work sounds radio-ready (and that maybe did another band’s demo that you like) and try to work with them. Research everything before spending your money on recording. Remember that most major labels are radio driven, and for the most part not in the business of selling your live show. I’ve seen bands that could barely play live get record deals because their demos sounded ready for radio. In these cases, the showcase was really just a formality — the record company’s mentality being that even if you suck live, you can’t tell that over the radio. I’ve even heard of bands with great demos being signed without ever being seen by a label rep at all. On the other hand, I’ve seen amazing live bands that just couldn’t come up with decent recordings of their material, and which to this day remain without a deal.
How the hell am I supposed to just start my career? I’m lacking funding, time and contacts to get the ball rolling. Aren’t you being a bit unrealistic? What can I say about that, except what you already know — the record business can be rather unpleasant. In recent years, the burden of artist development has shifted from record companies to management and the artists themselves. I don’t like it and I don’t agree with it, but that is really the way it is. Yes, it is unfair. Yes, it is hard as hell to get things going on for your career without major label resources. But yes, if you are able to start your career without help from a major, you will be that much more of a sellable commodity come showcase time. Look at it this way: As an A&R person, I am an investor for my company. You as an artist or band are a corporation. Your team is your senior management staff pitching your corporation to people like me. I am in position of acquiring corporations that I think will be successful. If your corporation is already beyond the blueprint or demo phases and is already demonstrating its viability in the marketplace, I am much more likely to want to invest in your future. In my experience, the only thing that can predict future sales in this business are existing sales. It is hard as hell to do on your own, but it can be done. Think about this: Kid Rock had sold well over 100,000 records on his own label before he signed to Lava/ Atlantic. He already had over 50 street-team members, and had received a decent amount of coverage by national periodicals. My company did a great job with this record, but nothing we did would have replaced his 10 years of legwork. In addition, that kind of legwork may put you in a stronger bargaining position when negotiating your deal. Dave Mathews and MC Hammer both got better than average royalty rates to lure them away from their already profitable independent careers.
“Anyway, you were about to stop this long-winded preamble and tell me what to do when I’m about to rock out in front of record execs, right?” I will in a minute, I promise… But first, I just want to say a word about gauging a label’s interest in your project. It’s important to know where people stand when they show up at your showcase, and it is very hard to tell. Musicians often misunderstand my intentions and interest level, so I guess I’d better explain what it means when I say or do something. Wow, I’m gonna be honest here…I know I’m going to regret this later but, here goes… When I say, “Please send me your demo,” it means, I want to hear this, someone told me it’s good, or I noticed the band doing something right. It doesn’t mean anything until we speak after I’ve listened to it — at which point you’ll know what’s up. When I say: “Well, let me know next time you play New York (my home town),” it means: Well, your demo was good, not great. Maybe if the live show is earth shattering we might talk about doing some demos or something. It kind of means keep in touch; let me know as things progress. It also indicates that I am not excited enough to get on a plane to go check you out just yet. It doesn’t mean that you should call your travel agent and book a tour ASAP — the interest level isn’t quite at that point yet. When I say: “OK, I’ll come see your next show — even if it is out of town — it means, I’m pretty excited here. Either I loved the demos or the fact that you’ve demonstrated that your project is making money in some way, or someone else in the business that I trust has convinced me that your project needs my immediate attention. It doesn’t mean I am the only person you need to impress. Like most A&R reps, I need approval from the upper tier to get anything signed When I say: “You guys were great, I’d like to get my boss to come see you now,” more often than not that statement means my decision is over. If it were my label, I’d sign you — but since it is not, I will see what the response is from the man upstairs. Depending on his reaction, I will decide on how to proceed. It doesn’t guarantee that the man upstairs will like you. If you thought convincing Cynical Bastard, Jr. was a task, just wait until you meet Cynical Bastard, Sr.
That said, most reps wouldn’t proceed unless they think their boss will understand your project. Major label interest is like venereal disease (or so they tell me): when you’ve got it, there won’t be any doubt in your mind.
Setting Up a Showcase
“OK — major label interest is a requirement for a showcase, and understanding the level of label interest is helpful. But will you tell me about showcasing now, please?” You’ve been patient, so… have your lawyer and manager take copies of your demos or album and send them to their closest industry contacts looking for feedback. You can do this yourself if need be, but it is likely that your material will get listened to more quickly if it is sent by a lawyer or a manager — and one or both should follow up on it to see if it was received and/or reviewed. I’d stress that your materials should be sent to your closest contacts first; that way, you get someone who is more likely to listen carefully and provide you with honest and detailed feedback and criticism. If your closest contacts are letting you know that they wouldn’t even travel across the street to check out your project, you might want to consider going back to the drawing board and working on your demo material some more. If the feedback is decent, however, by all means invite them to the show. Now is the time to sit down with your team and figure out which label(s) would be your ideal home. You’ve already sent your material to the people you and your team know the best — now I would recommend making sure that packages are sent to the labels you perceive to be the best fit for your project. If luck, timing and talent are with you, maybe you will get some people down to check you out.
Rules for the Big Rock Show
“So say I get a couple of labels interested — where do things go from there? Should I perform in their hometown or mine? Is it better to showcase in a rehearsal studio or in a venue? Should I bring out all of my drunken friends to the show? What about the guest list?”
If a label gives you the option of “your place or mine?” do not default to your one-night-stand logic — your response should always be “my place.” Ideally it should be in your hometown, at the venue in which you are most comfortable and in front of as many fans as you can find.
A showcase will likely be stressful for you no matter where it is, but in your home town and in a familiar venue you will be better able to predict all of the little pitfalls of playing live. Will you get a sound check? Is the soundman any good? Will the promoter/club owner move your set time? What is the back line like at the venue, and what equipment will you need to bring? Do everything you can to get a sound check and make sure you know (and tip! ) the soundman. If you have to be out of town, try to bring your own soundman, or at least find one who comes highly recommended wherever you wind up showcasing. Another good reason to avoid coming to label territory is that the crowds in New York and Los Angeles (where most record labels are located) suck. People rarely go out to check out new acts and tend to be too cool to move or show any real appreciation. Also, no matter what night you choose to play in New York or L.A, there will always be a national act or another buzz band you’ll be competing with.
Another thing to consider is that an A&R representative tends to feel less at work when seeing a band in a venue that’s not one of his or her usual haunts in downtown Manhattan or Los Angeles — and believe me, that can help. You may not be given the decision to play under ideal circumstances. A very common story for showcasing bands is that they will be seen first by a representative or scout in their hometown, and then flown in to New York or Los Angeles to play for the senior officers at the company, or sometimes most of the record label staff. This can be a brutal experience and I really don’t know how to tell you to prepare for it. Picture this — you’re in a room filled mostly with strangers who you know nothing about except that they work for a record label. There’s no alcohol, usually no smoking, and no one looking to pick someone up like they would at an ordinary show of yours in a bar somewhere. You are the sole focus of attention for a mob of jaded record executives. A friend of mine had his band showcase for an entire label staff last year and had one of the most horrifying experiences I’d ever heard about. In a sterile rehearsal room like the one I just described, the band waited for the label president (a living legend) to arrive.
After a half-hour of being uncomfortably stared at by several dozen New York hipsters, the band was finally greeted by the label head, who had a couch placed under his ass and was then carried to within spitting distance of the stage. The label head sat expressionless with arms folded during the band’s entire set. What could you do to prepare for this? Well, I guess the only thing I can think of is to practice until you know your set forwards and backwards so you can stand and deliver under any circumstances. Another option worth considering is performing in a studio if you know you can put on a good show there – not exactly easy or natural. The advantages are that you’ll have time to soundcheck, you can have everything set up the way you want, and you’ll have far more control if that appeals to you.
The Importance of Fans…
If you have a legion of loyal fans, don’t be afraid to bring every last one of them down to your showcase. It’s a very difficult thing to pack a venue (even if there is no cover) unless you’re doing something right. When I go out of town to check out band, I’m watching the crowd as much as I am watching the performance. The funny thing about doing A&R is that with every passing day in your job you become less like an ordinary consumer. For example, I haven’t purchased a CD or paid to see a performance in months. So honestly, I’m almost more interested in what your average 16-year-old kid thinks than what I think. The president of the label I work for once told me a story about seeing a band several years ago that went on to be a multi-platinum act. He didn’t get it; in fact, he hated it. Being rather bored in the middle of this packed show, he wandered around and talked to people in the crowd about the band. Every person he talked to swore that the band was the next coming of Christ. He allowed the A&R representative that brought the band to his attention to sign it and they went on to sell millions and millions of records. Obviously there were other factors involved, but the rabid fans at their show that night played a huge part in their signing.
More often than not, you will find yourself showcasing in less-than-ideal circumstances, so do your best to improvise and make do with what you have. If you are forced into a sterile rehearsal room, bring candles or some elements of your stage show to the room to liven it up a bit. If you have the means, have someone who knows your set operate the lights — lighting can really help out a show. Remember, you will likely be playing to a room of zombie-faced record execs who tend not to move a lot, so even a simple strobe light can do wonders to make it feel like something in the room is moving. You can talk to the label about bringing a case of beer and some friends down to the rehearsal room; I can’t imagine most of them would mind. If nothing else, it might make you feel more comfortable — which, as you can imagine, helps a great deal. Do be careful when playing the drunken-friends-in-a-rehearsal-hall card, however, because I’ve seen it do more harm than good. When it works right it’ll just be a bunch of people enjoying your music and having a beer. I’ve seen it appear very forced, where it seems like the band instructed every member of the audience to freak out and overreact to every song (which might just be them trying to be helpful). Be careful about audience coaching in general. When I go to see a show on the band’s territory, I’m expecting to see a well-promoted and packed show — the best example of a show they can do there. If I see one hint of something that looks staged (I once saw a band thanking a group of young girls and handing out $5 bills not too long after they loudly demanded band autographs in the middle of our conversation), it can be a total buzz kill.
Set Lists and Spontaneity
Obviously you are the one who has to live this out, but I would recommend writing out your set list several weeks before the showcase and practicing it over and over the exact same way you intend to play. Make sure you are so comfortable with your showcase set that you could play it while having hand grenades lobbed at you. Also, short sets tend to work better than long ones. I would say play only your strongest and/or most commercially viable material during a showcase, particularly if it is in a rehearsal hall. If you can, find out which songs the record company is focusing on.
If it is an ordinary show you have a bit more flexibility, but even then you should leave the crowd wanting more and pray that you get an encore (always a good sign). Put the song you are getting the best feedback on in the middle, or maybe in the latter half of the set because A&R people are notoriously late. I would even go as far with your rehearsals to script out the in-between song banter. At a venue or real show always announce your project’s name once or twice during the set (this way there’s no mistaken identity) and don’t be afraid to call out mailing list and CD info. I always like to know that a band isn’t shy about selling their records and is organized enough to keep a mailing list. This does not mean you should go overboard with stage banter. Song titles are cool to mention, crowd interaction is always a plus, but no one really wants to hear your life story. Besides, if you do your job right on stage, people will ask you for your life story when the set is over.
Guest Lists
Guest lists for industry people shouldn’t be a big deal, but for some reason or another it can cause problems. The one plus about showcasing in a rehearsal hall is that you won’t have deal with all of the fragile egos and bullshit whining that comes with putting together a guest list. Make arrangements with the venue you are playing at beforehand so you don’t discover too late that your guest list is over crowded and you have to come out of pocket for the extra people on your list. If you know up front that you won’t be getting a large list, don’t worry about it — A&R people have expense accounts that can be used for paying a cover charge. If the show will be sold out, then and only then should it really cause a problem. If you’re selling out a club, they shouldn’t be giving you shit about the size of the guest list anyway, so make sure that your industry guests are on the guest list and getting in. You should know that younger scouts and A&R people are far from wealthy, so if you’ve got an A&R assistant or scout helping you out, throw them a bone if you can. If you’ve got the space to put people on, it’s a nice courtesy. If you don’t, just make sure you communicate with the people you invite about the list — anyone who would let a nominal cover charge deter them probably isn’t worth your time anyway.
“Say things are going very well and I have several people interested — do I invite them all to the same show? Should I play labels off of one another to get a better deal? Would it be advisable to get my project in the middle of a bidding war?” There are cases where there can be too much of a good thing. On numerous occasions I have seen bands that have managed to get the majority of the A&R community in New York down to one of their shows and then blown it. That being the case — and being that anyone can have an off day — I would say try bringing people to your shows in smaller groups, or maybe even one by one. You will not always have that luxury if there are multiple labels interested in seeing you and you showcase in New York or Los Angeles. But if you can do more than one showcase for different groups of people without making it any less impressive, do so.
I’ve found that if too many people show up at a certain show, I will be more critical of the performance and will find myself asking if the band is really worth all the hype. I know it’s childish, but a packed showcase for a buzz band is kind of like going to see one of those blockbuster movies that spends millions on advertising and gets dozens of huge corporate sponsors. The movie might be good but it rarely meets your expectations because of all the hype, and will never quite be as good as a great movie you just kind of stumble upon. Major A&R turnout at your show doesn’t always lead to disaster, though. Sometimes only a few of the attendees step up with a deal and the band goes with whomever they feel most comfortable with — or whomever offers them the most generous deal. Other times, however, when there many labels interested in a band, the band can find they are in the middle of a bidding war. While this is obviously an enviable position to be in, it is a double-edged sword. On the one hand the band will have many different options to choose from; on the other, they will also be up against their own inflated perception. This is once again the obstacle of surviving the hype you generate for yourself.
Some of the biggest bidding wars of the last several years have been over bands such as Radish, Rubyhorse, Hayden, Flick and Furslide. If these names sound familiar, then trust me when I say you are quite up on your obscure music. Like a majority of bidding war acts these bands did not go on to perform like the collective A&R community thought they would.
I believe the heightened expectation placed on these bands has something to do with their failure. When a band that cost a label a great deal of money is released, the unconscious perception of the label staff is that it should perform better than the average new release. Since this is not always the case, it seems that people are quicker to dismiss a bidding war record even if it is selling moderately well. Once again, beware the hype. The best-case scenario is to get an offer in from one label and see if you can leverage that offer into a better offer from other labels. With luck you will get a modest amount of competitive deal offers on the table. Having just reread the last two sentences aloud I thought now would be a good time to mention this: ALL OF THE IDEAS STATED IN THIS ARTICLE ARE JUST THE OPINIONS OF RICK GOETZ, AND NOT THOSE OF ELEKTRA RECORDS OR ANYONE ELSE. Anyway, it can be a very touchy subject, and you must be careful to treat any deal memo you get with respect. Deal memos do get pulled off the table all the time, so don’t think you can take your time and flaunt the fact that you are continuing to shop even though label X has put its money where it’s mouth was. If you get an offer from a dream label and it seems to you and your team like a reasonable deal, then maybe you should just sign and get on with your career. If it is an offer from a label that is at the bottom of your list then maybe you should delicately put a spin on this in your pitch to other labels. When I say delicately I mean don’t call everyone in the A&R community and try to stir things up.
Just call those labels that have expressed the most interest to date (other than the label who has made an offer) and let them know that just for their information, there is now a deal on the table and that the band will not be available forever. Be warned — if you take too long looking for other options, you might loose the deal memo on the table. So be careful. If you do get a second label to make an offer, you can look to improve the stakes from both interested parties. As long as there are not too many offers and too much hype, you don’t risk the pitfalls of being a bidding-war band. I never said that a little friendly competition was wrong. But be warned that when you’re the middle of these negotiations you don’t exaggerate what one label is offering to the other one.
The music business is a twisted little social group that is not unlike high school — people talk and gossip frequently, and we all seem to be at least one or two degrees of separation from one another – so there is a good chance that if you tell one label that the other is offering you the moon and it isn’t true, that little lie will be uncovered, and screw up your rapport with one or both labels. One last comment: Rapport with an A&R person or label is crucial. You should try to understand his/her position within the label (i.e. level of seniority), and determine whether or not you can communicate and understand each other. You should also ask what their vision for you is, and hope that it somewhat lines up with your own. If there is a competitive bid situation, the person or label you communicate better with is very important, and could decide not only where you land, but also how happy you’ll be once you’re there.
Buck Up, Little Campers…
If you’ve made it this far, you are a real trooper. I think I’ve run out of silly anecdotes and half-baked witticisms for you. Your job in showcasing is to find the right label for your project (and in the process, get as many free fancy dinners as you can). I hope you continue making good music and not let the many obstacles before you deter you from your dreams and goals. Please bear in mind that this process is more like a marathon than a sprint — so don’t loose hope!
I recently spoke with Josh Lamstein, a Managing Director of GF Capital. GF Capital a private equity fund focused on investments in media and branded consumer products. I know this seems like an odd interview for a music industry blog but I am often making the comparison of a band or an artist as a start up company and a record label or a publisher as a private equity fund or a venture capitalist. I am hopeful that gaining an understanding from Josh about how he and his fund select start up companies will help us understand how important self starting and building one’s own business is for an artist. For all intents and purposes Josh functions like an A&R person who is looking to invest in companies rather than artists.
Musician Coaching:
Josh thanks as always for your time. If you would, tell me in your own words what your job is about.
Josh:
My job is to evaluate businesses and industries and to figure out which industries that we want to invest in and within those industries which companies are the most exciting. In practical terms that means doing research on growth rates within an industry, finding out who the entrenched players are within an industry and determining where there might be gaps in their own strategies that could be exploited by smaller companies as GF tends to invest in smaller companies.
Musician Coaching:
Define what a smaller company is in your eyes?
Josh:
We tend to invest in companies that are 15-50 million dollars of annual revenue and 3-15 million dollars of EBITDA. For media / content oriented companies we focus on Intellectual property (music, video software etc).
Musician Coaching:
Now forgive me because as you know I’m not the guy who brings the macaroni to the Mensa meetings; would you say it’s an apt comparison that your function at GF is similar to that of an A&R executive at a record label or publisher except that you are looking for corporations rather than talent to invest in?
Josh:
Yes, that’s accurate.
Musician Coaching:
So in layman’s terms, in deference to myself not in deference to the reader, what is it about a corporation or a corporation’s financial health that gets your attention as a possible investment?
Josh:
Taking a step back- the most important thing, and this is really what our job is, is to assess the management team. So in the parlance of what you are comparing this to our job is assessing the people in the band themselves.
Musician Coaching:
I would guess this would also apply to a band’s employees or band manager or booking agent if we were to continue this analogy further…
Josh:
Absolutely. Companies are organisms and you need to ensure that the people who are directing this organism are the kind of people who are willing to accept defeat yet keep on going until they find the path to a successful outcome. So we look for…
Musician Coaching:
People with that kind of track record?
Josh:
People who are willing to eat glass if that’s what it would take to become successful. People who are really driven towards success and excellence in what they do…
So… What we look for in companies in the media industry is a margin profile that is very attractive. Meaning a company of interest to us has gross margins (profit per unit before expenses, overhead etc) that tend to be very high. If the gross margins aren’t high – we want to dig in and understand a bit about why that may be. Then we look underneath that to see if the management of the corporation paying themselves a great deal of money. Are these people driving the success of the business; does that success tie in to their equity value as opposed to their compensation? It is a question of if they are managing in a lean way.
Musician Coaching:
So how much a company would re-invest in its growth would be important to you.
Josh:
Yes, we tend to look for people who are focused on the long term as opposed to clipping the coupons so to speak.
Musician Coaching:
Tell me about your thoughts about the music business in general right now. You are clearly looking at music and media companies to invest in. Do you see anything (without divulging sensitive information) that you like or models that you think are working right now?
Josh:
We are interested in a variety of areas. The publishing arena is an area we are interested in and is a good private equity business. Number one, you own the Intellectual property. Two- we don’t have to make tremendous bets on the outcome given that the types of publishing libraries we are looking at, libraries that have a historical track record.
Musician Coaching:
I am going to switch gears for a moment. I know doing what you do people come to you as really new start up companies because you know your way around finance. As I’ve mentioned to you in the past I think most artists and bands are in that situation of being a brand new start up company. Given that, is there any general entrepreneurial advice you could give to bands / artists who in most cases is borrowing or investing their own money to make a product in a high risk business like music? Are there things you have seen that you would have people steer clear of?
Josh:
In the pure corporate world – the longer you are able to go without taking on a venture capitalist the better it is for your company. A venture capitalist tends to have a very different type of incentive. The VC is really looking for a home run and will run the business as hard as they can to get that home run.
Musician Coaching:
I would guess everyone is looking for a home run – is this a matter of timing does a venture capitalist need this home run by a certain deadline or…
Josh:
So it tends to be the case that there are many businesses without Venture capital they would perform in a solid if unspectacular way and that’s not appealing to a venture capitalist.
Musician Coaching:
Continuing the baseball analogy is it the difference between reliably making base hits or going for a home run and very possibly striking out? Meaning a venture capitalist will bet more and more risky in many cases than a company would if self funded?
Josh:
Yes, the venture capitalist portfolio will typically have something on the order of 15-20 companies. Of those 1-2 will be home runs in a good portfolio. The rest will be either complete wipe outs or marginal successes.
Musician Coaching:
So basically a small number of large successes will cover for a lot of misses. That sounds just like a major label.
Another question – is it so that the earlier in a company’s growth cycle that they partner with an investor, the more of a stake that investor is able to take?
Josh:
That’s correct. In a company you are giving up ownership for an artist I’m not sure how exactly it would translate.
Musician Coaching:
For an artist it could be relinquishing some publishing rights or just a split or percentage with a strategic partner that would be considerably less than if they were able to build their business more on their own. You have nothing to bargain with if you haven’t demonstrated your viability. Josh thanks again for your time.
Tom DeSavia is the VP of Creative at Notable Music. Prior to being at Notable Tom was the Senior Vice President of Membership at ASCAP, a VP of A&R at Elektra and started his career many years prior to that as a journalist for the now defunct music Magazine – Cashbox. Notable music is a small publisher that was founded around the music of Cy Coleman who wrote for everyone from Sinatra to Tony Bennett and scored dozens of award winning Broadway musicals. They have a small but strong roster that includes Rosanne Cash and Sam Phillips among others.
Tom thanks for taking the time to speak today. You are VP of Creative – what is your gig and how has your adjustment been coming from large corporations to a small one like Notable?
TD:
My partner Damon Booth (VP / GM Notable) and I are building a company we love and signing things that we know we can work with and grow. Damon said to me when I was coming over, “The hardest part for you is realizing you’re going to be able to do whatever you want.” And as funny as that sounds, it was. After years and years of corporate conditioning, it took me months to say, “I want to do this” and realize I didn’t have to get it signed in triplicate. I could do whatever I wanted. The small business thing is interesting, because I’ve never worked so hard, but I’ve never had so much fun. If we don’t do well, we don’t survive. It’s that simple. It’s something just different than if you’re one of hundreds at a big company.
We’ve been very lucky. When we first started working this together, I’d known Sam Phillips (Scored eight seasons of the Gilmore Girls among other achievements) from my time at ASCAP, and she was really intrigued by the idea of a mom and pop sort of business to align with. She had just had a cut on the Allison Krauss / Robert Plant record, and a song in the movie “Crazy Heart” and was looking to make a change in her publishing. She had met with a lot of companies and just really liked this idea. Similarly, with Rosanne Cash, we had heard she was available as a free agent, and we’d both been huge fans of her music and out of the blue wrote her an impassioned letter about this company. We said what we loved about her and about her music and that we wanted to work with her, and she bought it. We’re looking to segue out of the industry we all grew up with. Everyone has friends and people they love in the business, myself included, but the corporate structure and the way things are going made people look at a lot of it differently. I see a lot of people looking at the business on the indie level again. There’s a breadth of indie publishers and labels popping up, and it’s definitely an exciting time to be small again. The business is being reinvented, and it’s a time to try to do things the way you always wanted but were never allowed to.
Are you currently doing new artist deals?
TD:
Yes, but we have to be head over heels in love with it and feel we can do something with it. Right now we have three new acts. We did a joint venture with a Brooklyn-based magazine called Wax Poetics. They were playing us some of the best new music we’ve heard in years, and it was all off the beaten path. We signed a guy named Adrian Young who had scored a movie called Black Dynamite and does 1973 “blacksploitation” type music using old gear. We fell in love with what he was doing and his beautiful retro thing. We worked with a guy named Marcos Garcia who has an act called Chico Mann. Marcos is also the guitar player in Antibalas. His music is sort of a modern / classic electro Latin funk project. He is the James Brown of the Casio! The third is a guy named Aja West, also known as the Mackrosoft, who has put out about 13-14 records on his own. He does anywhere from classic hip hop to classic jazz to modern jazz and modern funk and has played with the Dust Brothers, Money Mark, etc. He is a mad scientist / super genius – I love him! Our developing music signings are not bands in the standard way, and they are not someone writing contemporary pop tunes.
I’m curious about the mindset, because in the business we came out of, the publisher’s stance would usually be something like “I think you’re great, and you’ve got a major record coming out, and my A&R contact said I should take a swing on something.” Sadly that was how it happened more often than not in my experience. What is it like for you now? Do you find something you want to sign with the thought- “Not only do I love this, but I can get this placed to death?”
TD:
Exactly. The focus isn’t on finding something necessarily with record sales or radio singles. There’s plenty of that out there, but we said, “What could differentiate us from the others and what do we think we can do?” Obviously from our careers we knew a lot of music supervisors and ad agency people. We found there was a warm reception to a bit of a left of center catalog. If someone is looking for a Katy Perry song, they can go to a number of places and get a great commercial pop tune but that’s not what we do.
So instead you went after pieces of music that would fulfill the request of a music supervisor who would say to you “I want something that is 1967 Curtis Mayfield, but I don’t want to pay Curtis Mayfield prices.”
TD:
Yeah. And we found stuff we liked. As corny as it sounds, we made a pact that we’d only sign stuff that would fit into our record collection, because we’d know what to do with it. We’d pound the pavement and know how to sell it and how to speak it.
You’re also doing the placement?
TD:
Yeah. We do everything. When you asked my title, it’s funny, because on any given day it’s head of technology to the janitor but I love it. We all do everything and have been very blessed by having good friends that have helped us by getting us great syncs or making introductions to people we don’t know. In some cases we’ve been working with independent placement people who love the music. Most of it has been studying what happens on TV and trying to get in touch with as many ad agencies as possible and getting on their pitch lists, and then trying to be proactive and place songs with products and in TV shows. In addition, there’s traditional publisher stuff. We try to get cuts when it makes sense, but the majority of the cuts we try to get are for something going into film that will also turn into a sync. That’s pretty much what we’re doing. We are not trying to be one of the biggest companies but rather one of the best. We’re trying to gain a reputation where people look at our roster and it might not make sense on paper, but it does make sense side-by-side in a record collection.
How do people get in front of creatives like you in the modern music publishing market? It sounds like the “do what you love” mantra is now a reality, because you don’t have to be making big pop hits to make a living. What then is moving the needle for you? What advice would you give to someone just starting out as a musician?
TD:
For us it’s falling in love. We didn’t plan our current roster. We didn’t have a blueprint that brought all these artists in. As a former A&R guy, I love the ways music can reach me now.
It used to be we had to take calls from certain lawyers shopping new artists. Otherwise, when the contract renegotiation came around we were in trouble. What about now? How do most things filter into you? Are you getting things from music supervisors, ad agencies or artists? How is it best to approach someone like yourself?
TD:
We get things from everyone, so the answer is “all of the above.” It comes from friends like you, saying, “I heard a great band.” Everything we’ve been sent by friends makes sense. We have an army of musicians out there that we’ve worked with over the years that might say, “Oh my God, I just played with this amazing band in Omaha,” or “Oh my God, I just heard this amazing songwriter in a coffee house.” A lot of it comes like that. We listen to everything now.
The thing I love about this new-formed business is, we may hear something we love, but we’re not equipped to do sign it. It could be for any number of reasons for example we’re not as plugged into that particular scene to promote it or are too busy with other projects at that particular time. There’s a building networking going on with small publishers, and we talk to each other. So, there’s a passing back and forth that happens a lot. We get a lot of calls saying, “I just heard something phenomenal. We’re a small company and can’t take it on right now, but what do you think?” That happens more than it ever did in the past.
When we were at Elektra together it was more like – “I can’t sign this. I’m going to call up my friend or two at rival companies. Eventually someone is going to call Hits Magazine and we’re going to get everyone else interested so there’s a huge Bay of Pigs clusterfuck, and then maybe my boss will respond to it now that everyone else is talking about it.
TD:
Exactly. And you know that world still exists to a degree, we just choose not to live in it. The Bay of Pigs is a perfect analogy.
These days, I love working with ad agency people, because they remind me of old record company people. They are actually putting some thought into the music they are going to put into a commercial. We’ve seen the growth of real creativity with the way music is being used now in ads and in film and television. We’re talking to a lot of record geeks, and it’s great.
I’m also having fun going around and seeing what artists I love are doing on Twitter and who they are talking about and reading artists’ blogs and going to people’s Facebook pages. The amount of music that hits me is staggering now. You just nailed something completely that I never thought about but the way music is shared now is so different from when you and I were doing A&R. You used to have to stand outside your door with an AK 47 making sure no one outside the building or even inside the building heard what you had in your office. Now with a button, your 900 friends on Facebook are going to see it, and it’s going to be re-posted and re-posted and re-posted. So much new music hits me that way. It’s like having a favorite record store that stocks the music you like. I have favorite friends that I pay attention to online. For example, I really liked going to Moby Disc, because they tended to stock records I was interested in buying. It’s like that online now- I will follow people that I see really tend to find great music. What I love and is so different from the culture of our youth is that now everything is being broadcast. I also find that approaching people as an indie is a good place to be. People are interested in talking to small companies today. Classically, it was the bigger, the better. Now it’s the idea of being a huge fish in our small pond.
So the Sixty four thousand dollar question… How does one get an indie publishing deal? And can you speak about the pros and cons of an indie vs. a major?
TD:
It’s by us either scouting out their music or them getting to us. We’re small enough so we accept everything. Personally I’m a fan of getting music digitally first. I love the ease of it. I prefer links rather than files attached to emails.
Before they would get to the initial approach. The people that get to you – are these well-networked people? What do these people have in common that they’ve done right to show up on you radar?
TD:
Lately a great deal comes from Social Networks. We’re on Facebook, we’re @NotableMusicCo on Twitter. A lot of stuff comes in because someone will say something to the effect of, “I noticed you published Sam Phillips. I adore Sam Phillips, and she’s one of my favorite writers, so I’d like you to see my stuff.” We get a lot of stuff like that.
So that is a viable way of connecting with you then? If someone says something intelligent enough about an artist or several artists on your roster and relates it back to what they do, there’s a reason to listen to it in your mind?
TD:
Yes. Sometimes we’ll get stuff like, “Wow. Your roster goes from Broadway’s standards to old school funk. I do something completely different.” Almost anything that comes in gets an A&R listen. Put your best foot forward. I love getting one or two songs and then being able to ask for more. I hate being besieged by music, because it’s too overwhelming. A lot of it comes in that way. The Wax Poetics guys, who are an amazing resource in their world, come forward with a lot of stuff. My friends at ASCAP and BMI have been great sources. It’s someone coming forward and buying into the company as much as anything else. What we tell people is, “If you’re looking for an old school advance, we’re not the place to do it. We’re not there to compete with one of the big companies.” In the case of Rosanne Cash and Sam Phillips, those are admin deals. We’re working on them every day.
Have publishing advances changed drastically? What are those like these days?
TD:
Modern publishing deals are everything from really small deals that wouldn’t have happened in the 90s to bands doing small, fair deals to the occasional astronomical deal. Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn’t. Every once in a while you hear about the five to seven million dollar deal. In most cases, those are for heritage acts or someone established. But there’s still an occasional bidding war. That world still exists, but I’m not sure for how long or how many of them are tied into 360 deals.
You’ve been an A&R guy, a music journalist, and a creative executive at ASCAP and have seen a lot. Do you have any last pieces of general advice for artists?
TD:
Understand what you’re signing. Don’t do business with anyone you wouldn’t have a beer with. Ask questions. The business has always relied on musicians being seen and not heard and just making music. Now a lot of musicians and songwriters have become small business people and actually understand how it’s going and that they can actually survive and make a living off being a musician. It’s not about, “Wow, I can have a mansion and a yacht and a string of polo ponies.” It’s about “I can actually be a working musician and provide for my family.” So much of it is understanding the business and really investing in your own career. I see a lot of people really doing that today, and it’s encouraging.
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