This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
Jason Reeves is an ASCAP award-winning singer/songwriter who, aside from successfully building a career as a DIY artist has also proven that collaboration can be incredibly powerful for artists that want to find new ways to reach fans and get their music heard. Reeves has co-written many songs, including the Billboard chart-topping “Bubbly” and “I Never Told You,” with the Grammy-award-winning Colbie Caillat. He also wrote “The Show” with Australian pop artist Lenka and most recently worked with A Rocket To The Moon and Hot Chelle Rae. Like many other artists, Reeves threw himself into music early, picking up piano at five, then drums and guitar in his teens. He cites his major influences as Bob Dylan, Led Zeppelin and James Taylor. In late 2004/early 2005, Jason was contacted by producer Mikal Blue who had heard his self-created work on CD Baby and invited Reeves to record in his L.A. studio. It was there that Blue connected him to Caillat, and a career-altering partnership was born. Reeves self-released four albums and an EP before signing to Warner Bros. Records in 2008 and returned to the DIY world in 2011 with his album The Lovesick. His next album, Songs are Silent Films will be released next month.
I recently got to talk to Jason about co-writing, the process of building up a national touring base and the importance of staying focused on your vision as an artist if you want to have a successful, long-lasting career in music.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk, Jason. Tell me how you got started as a musician/singer/songwriter.
JR:
When I was living in Iowa, I had just graduated from high school. I had started writing songs and putting out records on my own at the end of high school. And when I went to college right away, as most people do, I had no idea why I was going or what I was doing. All I was doing was writing music and not going to class. So, I dropped out in order to not waste my time or my parents’ money.
I decided I was just going to go for it, which led me to California, which turned a lot of things on for me and opened a lot of doors. For example, I met Mikal Blue and Colbie Caillat. They were my first two friends when I first came out here. And everything has come from that. But the whole time, I’ve just been trying to write as much music as I can and see where it takes me.
Correct me if I’m wrong: At the time, you were 19 or 20 and moving out to California on your own. How did you go about networking to even find artists of that caliber? How did that come about?
JR:
Honestly, Mikal Blue, the producer, is the reason I came out there. He invited me to come record with him. At the time, I’d only ever recorded in little basement studios in the country in Iowa – nothing that resembled a real studio. And I’d never really been to the West Coast. So, I was really excited. And Colbie had just had her first guitar lesson and had just written her first song when I met her. Neither of us had ever co-written a song before. All of a sudden, we met, started writing songs, and it turned into what it did. We didn’t expect that, and it wasn’t our goal. That’s really how crazy it’s been.
Ever since that happened, I’ve just been able to write with other people. And it’s been amazing. I know I’ve been very lucky.
You said you were putting out your own records. How did Blue come across you? Iowa is not exactly a music business hot spot, unless it’s changed since the last time I’ve been there.
JR:
Not at all. He found it on CD Baby. I still actually use them. But this was before I knew what MySpace, Facebook and all those things were. CD Baby was really the only place I knew to put my music, and that was where he found it. It’s crazy how the Internet has been changing everything.
For sure. Tell me about what the process of co-writing has been like for you. I know most artists I work with are initially a bit hesitant. They find it a bit awkward and feel like songwriting is a fairly personal thing to share with someone they don’t know that well. I’m assuming you and Colbie weren’t that tight when you initially started writing songs together. Was it an easy process for you, or was it something you had to work to get comfortable with?
JR:
It’s something you have to learn, for sure. But the more you do it and figure out how it works, the better you get at it. I think being comfortable is one of the most important things, because what you said about people not liking to do it because it feels strange initially or too intimate is true. If you’re not comfortable enough to share exactly how you feel or what you think with someone, you’re not going to get the best song. That’s why I, for the most part, write with people I’m already really good friends with and work well with. That makes the process fun and easy.
It sounds like your career was something that you built initially based on your success as a co-writer.
JR:
That’s definitely what has brought a lot of attention to my own music. I’ve been touring a lot for the past three or four years. I did do a lot of promotion with my songs, so it’s a balance between the two. It’s about half co-writing and half putting out my own music.
You were signed to a major label and have also put out records on your own. Tell me a little bit about that process.
JR:
I was on Warner Bros. Records until last year. Before I was on the label, I put out about an album a year. But the important part for me was that, when I was doing it myself, I could put out music whenever I wanted to. Warner was good to me, and I liked being on the label. But in all honesty, I didn’t get very much done. In fact, it kind of slowed me down. So, the fact that I’m not on the label anymore just means I can actually put out the music I have that’s just sitting around. Because, I write so many songs, it’s hard to even keep up with myself. That’s why I’ve been really excited to be able to have people who are willing to help me do this. It’s amazing. I have a feeling a lot of work is going to get done just in these next couple months by a few people than it did the whole time I was on that label.
I first came up in the Atlantic Records system. And I would watch what I called “The Shiny Shirt” phenomenon happen over and over again. What would happen was, after Hootie & the Blowfish, Atlantic seemed to be mining the Southeast region for the next Hootie. They signed all these bands from the Carolinas and Tennessee and Florida. These bands would be doing all this local promotional, getting on local radio, then putting together regional touring.
Then, the label would come in and say, “This is all great. Quit your jobs. We’re just getting this release together.” And these musicians tended to all stop, say, “Cool, we’re rock stars now” and wait. They would be waiting on the photographer for the photo shoot, for the mastering engineer who was going to spend $20,000 of the band’s money to make the record sound marginally better, or for the publicist to show up and say, “Singer? We’re going to get you into the gym, have you lose a little weight. Bass player? Cut your hair, because you’ll really be cute when we have this whole makeover/reveal thing together.” The guitarist would wear leather pants instead of jeans, and everyone would get shiny shirts as opposed to flannel. That was almost all I saw really change. Then, they would throw it at radio, and it would mostly miss.
JR:
That’s an amazing description.
That was just my experience. But, you’re in the vast majority of people I know that have had a major label experience where they saw their name with a major label imprint next to it, and it just didn’t quite deliver the way they expected it to.
JR:
Yes. It was frustrating.
Let’s get down to some nuts and bolts. I think a lot of people have the tendency to say, “Okay, I’m going to leave my hometown, and then what?” How did you go about building a national touring base?
JR:
It started around the time I put out my album The Magnificent Adventures of Heartache, which was in 2007. It was in about 2008 that I decided I needed to tour. I got two guys I met in L.A. – a bass player and a drummer – and we just rehearsed and did a residency at Hotel Café for a month. After that, we just started touring as much as we could. Eventually, they got really long. One of the tours we had was 37 shows in a row. It was more than circling the U.S. once. It was totally amazing, but crazy. It goes up and down, depending on the day and is really hard to predict how things will go. But the more you play cities, the more people come back to see you. And you just hope you can keep their attention.
Obviously you regularly get feedback on which songs work and which don’t. Other than just playing well, is there anything else you’ve learned about how to keep people’s attention?
JR:
I think for somebody that’s touring the way I do, it really comes down to the songs and if they connect to people. At my level, it’s not necessarily mainstream media that’s promoting my music, so people aren’t finding out about me that way. They’re hearing about me through word of mouth and Internet. I’m sure that’s how most music is. But at the end of the day, it’s about a song connecting to the person that’s listening to it enough that they want to tell their friends and come to the shows. Other than that, I think it’s a mystery. My main goal is to write the best songs I can.
It’s something that a lot of musicians lose, for sure. I notice you’re active with Instagram and Facebook. What online marketing strategies have worked the best for you?
JR:
It’s so crazy how much is happening with all that and how it just keeps changing and getting more intricate. I can’t even keep up with it, honestly. There are too many for me. So, I try to just utilize a few the best I can. I just got Instagram, because until recently, I didn’t have an iPhone. I just kept holding out and telling myself I didn’t need one. I didn’t realize how amazing they actually are, even though it scares me terribly to own one. But with Twitter, Facebook and everything else, there are so many different tools now.
The fact that you can connect immediately to people anywhere in the world is very wild and futuristic. And it’s happening right now. Obviously, the whole music industry and everything about music today has been changed by it. So, I’m still learning just like everyone else is what all these things mean.
If you had to give yourself advice as you were releasing records in high school, based on what you have now experienced, what would you tell yourself about what to expect, what to avoid, or what to prioritize?
JR:
I would say, you have to be more patient than you can even imagine. Also, it needs to be about the music the whole time. That’s still one of my main goals, and I think it’s what being a songwriter should be about. I think it’s about trying to keep everything you do as real and as honest as you can make it.
Do you feel like you ever lost sight of that along the way?
JR:
I don’t think I did. It’s just something that I have to keep working on. There are so many things pulling people away from the music and being honest, at all times. And if you are somebody that wants to stay true to the vision of what you want to represent, you have to stand strong on certain things and not give in.
To learn more about Jason Reeves and his music, you can visit him on Facebook or follow him on Twitter. His album Songs Are Silent Films will release in June 2012.
Jerome Bunke is the founder of Digital Force, a full service boutique CD and DVD production company that provides individual artists and groups with high-quality recording services surrounding their product releases. Jerome earned his Bachelor’s and Master’s Degree at The Juilliard School as a clarinetist and his Doctorate at New York University. As a clarinetist, he has managed, produced and performed in world concert tours with stops at major venues such as Carnegie Hall and The Kennedy Center. As a studio musician and producer, he has collaborated with greats like Elmer Bernstein, Don Sebesky,Sid Ramin and Michael Cohen. As President of the UK-based international music publisher Boosey & Hawkes, he witnessed the first steps of the digital revolution and helped the company respond to changes that were pushing distribution channels from the record companies to the artist. He was also General Manager of Vox Records and helped transform their analog catalog to compact discs. He has also chaired the Chamber Music panel for the National Endowment for the Arts and participates in the music recording program at New York University. Digital Force has worked with major organizations including NBC’s Olympic Broadcast, RCA, Sony, Universal and Motown Records.
I recently got to talk to Jerry about how his passion for music and recording developed, how Digital Force helps artists and other creatives coordinate and execute their releases and some important details people need to consider when putting together the many different aspects of their recordings.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk. How did you get into the music business, and what led you to start Digital Force?
JB:
Getting into the music business is something that has been a life-long passion, because I started out being 100% a performer. I went to Juilliard and got my Bachelor’s and Master’s from there as a clarinetist. And as a clarinetist, I was fortunate enough to play around the world at places like Carnegie Hall, The Kennedy Center with the Japan Philharmonic and in England. I made close to 25 album recordings. I’ve always been involved with production and being able to put music in conjunction with other disciplines. So, being involved with production and recording was my plan from the get-go.
I’ve also produced over 50 records that included many of the members major orchestras: the New York Philharmonic; Boston Symphony; Chicago Symphony; Cleveland Orchestra and the Philadelphia Orchestra. I also had works commissioned for me and a Ford Foundation grant to do an album of contemporary concertos.
The idea of getting into production and then having a successful product is being able to understand the perspective of the performer, the perspective of the studio, as well as what it means to market and be able to put together the graphics for an album and realize from a practical standpoint how important all the different components are. From my experience as a studio musician, I figured out that if a piece of music was three seconds too long, one edits it to fit the film. I learned what it meant to see music and my art through the lens of business.
Everything was crystallized when I was with Boosey & Hawkes, a publishing company based in London. The composers on that company’s roster included Aaron Copland and Leonard Bernstein. That’s when I started to move towards digital, because people started to see the cost of inventory and printing vs. print on demand. That’s how I officially got involved in digital production.
When CDs came out, I helped with the process of taking the Vox catalog and changing it from LPs into CDs. Jewel cases derived their name to help justify their relatively high cost. In the early days of CDs – before there were even CDs, which were jointly founded overseas by Sony and Philips, made in the United States –everything had to be imported. And if you were buying them at that point, they could easily be $35. a piece. That’s why this plastic case that held them was called a “jewel box.” It helped substantiate the cost of what that sound recording was at the time.
I moved from production into audio CDs. And that grew into enhanced CDs, being able to use sound recordings in conjunction with computers, videos, links to websites as well as DVDs. As modern technology emerged, the performer and composer could become directly in touch with their audience and the public. The trend moved towards becoming independent, and people being able to artistically and financially control their own product. People started to think about who would have the expertise to be able to service the independent market and know what was involved with producing an album and what the timeline has to be, how everything has to work: Who would be able to make the project better?
And that is the rationale behind Digital Force. We provide a multitude of services that let the performer, the creative people and the marketing people do what they do best – make music, promote it, sell it. Digital Force makes sure there is a top-rated product that comes out and that gets into the distribution cycle. Our rationale is that the same quality work and attention to detail that we’ve provided to a wide array of artists – Dionne Warwick, Patti LuPone, Usher, Andre Crouch, The Dave Matthews Band, Thomas Hampson, BJ Thomas among others – and to Broadway productions ranging from Sunset Blvd., Movin’ Out, Hair, Spelling Bee and The Book of Mormon is available to independent labels, artists and bands.
Most people think, “All I have to do is get my CDs replicated. I’ll call a CD replication company, and that will be that.” And that’s fine if all you’re going to do is hand them out or use them as giveaways in a grab bag. What does Digital Force help people organize when they’re trying to put together a high-quality release?
JB:
We take a boutique approach. We’re passionate about what we do. We want to put genuine care into every project. We understand how important each note and each project is.
Very few people leave enough time for the production process. A lot of times artists and labels have focused most of their energy on getting the recording made. They try to figure out who is doing the A&R, which pieces they are using and how many recording, overdub, editing and mixing sessions there need to be. That can go on for months or even a year. Then suddenly, they think, “Gee. We have a release party next Saturday. What’s going on?” And then you wonder with all the time spent, who looked at the graphics? What is the name of the album? Do they have an artist photo? People can’t autograph digital downloads. So, the idea of having a physical, tangible product for a lot of performers is still very important. It helps create their identity, gets their story out and becomes something they can make income from when they sell it to their fans.
What we attempt to do is add extra value to that disc by being able to incorporate videos and other connections. To give an example, we’ve been talking with a show that’s going to be hitting Broadway this year. We’re in negotiations to do an enhanced CD. It’s going to be a cast album, plus videos, behind-the-scenes features and links to the show’s website.
What important details related to elements like album artwork, UPC coding, etc. do artists often forget when putting together albums for release?
JB:
As part of packaging, there are elements that the distribution system requires in order to make your product viable. There’s something called the UPC, which is the bar code that gets scanned at every checkout counter. This code is important because, what I like to do is make sure there’s nothing that prevents a store from taking someone’s album. And a UPC code will not guarantee that a store will take the album. But you don’t want to put a potential barrier in the way by not having it. Without the UPC code, the store can’t scan the album or figure out what the price is.
Is not having a UPC code a commonly-made mistake, even for independent or DIY artists who are looking for consignment?
JB:
Yes. And it is becoming increasingly difficult to find stores that have hired knowledgeable help. If you have stores that are mall stores or set up like mall stores, you need to make sure someone can come into the store, pick up the album and then check it out at the counter. The UPC code also helps with inventory. So, even if the album isn’t being sold, at least you know what your count is.
So, that would also apply in the case of someone who would be giving it away free with purchase.
JB:
Exactly. The UPC code has really become a standard.
Likewise, there’s something related to the UPC code called the top spine. You usually break your fingernails off trying to get it apart, but it holds the CD together on the top. It has a bar code and the title, so when it’s on the rack you can see the name. Quite often, not only does it help a person flipping through a stack of CDs, but also stores can scan it to find out what is on the shelves.
The idea with both these things is that you want to make it as easy as possible for the seller to accept your product and keep track of it for you.
As another example, recently we did a promo for an artist in advance of their release where we were looking at their artwork and realized there was no contact information: email address; website; etc. So, if you’re using your CD to try to get other gigs and promote yourself or find out if the radio stations are getting them, you need to be able to make things easy for people. And you can only have an album without a title – like The Beatles’ White album – if you’re The Beatles.
The other thing you need these days in terms of tracking, airplay and digital distribution – iTunes, etc. – is what’s called the ISRC code. That stands for the International Standard Recording Code.
Who monitors that, and why is that important?
JB:
At Digital Force, we are authorized to be able to assign those codes. It’s actually set up in the United States through the RIAA. And each code has 12 characters – a combination of letters and numbers. These indicate the country of origin, the year released and the authorized facility that issued the codes. It also is attached to a five-digit number that identifies every single track. We usually embed these when there’s a finished master to that finished master track.
So, these are codes that are put into the audio files themselves?
JB:
Yes. They are embedded into each track and are also unique to each track.
So even if these end up ripped onto a CD, that code will stay intact.
JB:
Yes. And you raise an important point, because the code is always part of the track. So, if you use the track separately as part of another recording somewhere down the road, that code goes with it.
As a matter of fact, if we were going to take a single that had the main track and an instrumental version or an a cappella version of that track, each version would get its own ISRC code. Then, the individual versions as it’s digitally downloaded or played can be tracked.
Is this part of the process taken care of by aggregators like TuneCore, ReverbNation or CD Baby?
JB:
No. It’s usually done during the mastering process.
Who actually picks up this tracking, and how is that tracking beneficial?
JB:
This is how whichever digital service you’re using tracks sales, etc. of the recording. This does the same thing the UPC code does for your physical album for each track of your digital album.
So, this is picked up by SoundScan, radio stations, etc.
JB:
Exactly. It’s how you’re able to figure out the quantity of sales and get paid.
Given the work we do with so many majors and distributors, we’re aware of the trends and we always feel it’s our obligation to answer questions, even though ultimately our clients have to make their own decisions. We’ve been fortunate enough to be able to create works and participate in broadcasts that have been heard by hundreds of millions of people, ranging from the Olympics and Broadway Shows, to the initial release of The Phantom Menace.
Earlier, you were talking about having enough production process. How much lead time should people give you? What are some of the things you need from artists in order to start a project?
JB:
One of the axioms I have is, “There’s never enough time to do it right, but there’s enough time to do it over.”
Quite often I find that the package and the graphic design are usually not given the same amount of time and consideration that the actual recording receives. In many ways, there are parallels between different parts of the process. I was talking earlier about how there are rehearsals, overdubs, editing, mastering. The recording process goes through many transformations over a period of time. And in many ways that same type of process has to happen on the graphics side. As an artist, you need to ask basic questions, like “What do I want on the cover?” “Am I going to include lyrics?” That might make the booklet bigger. You need to include basic information about the group and put it together, and it’s helpful to know what these are ahead of time. You also need to ask, “Are there composer credits? “Do I need to take care of sync or mechanical licenses, be it through BMI, ASCAP, SESAC, etc.?”
Usually I find that the initial release takes longer because companies or artists haven’t figured out what their identity is. Is there a logo? Is there going to be a second or third album? What format are you going to use? There is one company that we’ve now done about 130 releases for, and way back in the beginning, they wanted something that was going to set them apart. And so Digital Force came up with the idea of using a red-colored tray for all the CDs. That became one of the ways of identifying their products in the marketplace.
We have been good at building long-term relationships with our clients. We distribute for them and warehouse. And here’s another thing related to UPC codes: When you’re sending out promos, we like to punch holes in them, because they shouldn’t be counted as a sale. Someone shouldn’t be able to take them to a store, return them and get something else. When that happens, you’ll find you get more returns than when you sell. So, that’s something we also do for our clients.
I never thought about that as the reason all the promos have holes punched in them.
Do you have any other parting words of advice?
JB:
The biggest thing I would say is that you need to contact whomever your vendor is going to be before you establish a release date. Leaving enough time to take care of all parts of the process is important.
And I also can’t emphasize enough: The graphics are the one detail that most people haven’t focused enough on, and that’s usually what ends up holding up the release. As an example, we’ve been fortunate enough to be involved with providing CDs for the Super Bowl. And with the Super Bowl, if you’re three hours late showing up, the game is over. So, we take deadlines very seriously here.
And I apologize for not putting this positively, but there’s no worse feeling than trying to scramble to get a CD ready for someone whose CD release party is a couple of days away. Not that we haven’t done it, but it does make it harder – let’s say more of a challenge – to get the product out the way you want to. Most of the time, anyone who tells you they can get it out in a day or two probably isn’t being very realistic. We like to leave enough room in the production cycle for our clients to see proofs. Being able to see proofs of the artwork in finished form allows the customer to have the opportunity to make changes, and other corrections, if necessary, before going into final production. And we like our clients to go through the process, because it is a process.
Generally, I fell that musicians – and I can readily understand why – spend most of their time and focus on the actual music, recording, mixing and mastering their CD and therefore, the artwork may not get the same amount of attention.
Generally, I feel that musicians — and I can readily understand why — spend most of their time and focus on the actual music, recording, mixing and mastering their CD and therefore, the artwork may not get the same amount of attention. People see the artwork before the CD is opened — before they get a chance to hear the amazing sounds that will be heard when your music is played. It is like spending time to create a wonderful meal: getting the proper ingredients; preparing the ingredients; cooking the meal to perfection and then determining how the meal is to be presented. Your choice of a production company is a vital aspect of realizing a finished product that matches your dream. Do you want to serve your meal on a nice platter or on a garbage can cover? Even without tasting the meal, which one do you think will be more appealing?
To learn more about Jerome Bunke and the work he does, you can visit the Digital Force website.
Lou Giordano is an award-winning music producer who has over 30-years’ experience working with a variety of bands, including Mission of Burma, The Lemonheads, King Missile and Sugar. He got his start in the music industry playing in bands in high school and while attending MIT in the 1980s, where he first had the opportunity to learn about the elements of the recording studio by working with a variety of local bands in a studio originally built by Amar Bose, founder of the Bose Corporation. In the ‘80s, Lou spent three years accompanying Husker Du on two world tours and worked throughout the ‘80s and ‘90s at Radiobeat Studios and Fort Apache Studios in Boston. In the mid-‘90s, Lou produced the Goo Goo Dolls’ multi-platinum album A Boy Named Goo. Most recently, he produced gold records for Taking Back Sunday and The Ataris.
Lou talked to me about how he found his way to music and shared some advice for artists about choosing the best producer for them and the elements that go into putting together a high-quality record.
Thanks for taking some time to chat, Lou. How did you get started in the music business? I know you played in bands while you were at MIT.
LG:
Yeah. I went to MIT, and I had been in bands in high school, so I just kept playing. And in college, I bumped into a couple people who got me into new things. One fellow in particular, Seth Gussow was renovating an old recording studio on campus that was used by Amar Bose when he was doing his doctoral thesis there, studying acoustics. He was working out the different techniques for what would later be his speaker company. He built a studio – a small recording room – and then there was a bunch of tube equipment that was in there. But it was all in a state of disrepair. Seth was restoring all the equipment. I didn’t really help him too much with that part of it, but I helped him with a few recording projects and really liked it. I got my feet wet with that.
Then, I started off at an 8-track studio in Kenmore Square. At the time I was more interested in the music side of it, not so much the recording. So, I was going out and discovering all these hardcore bands. The whole idea of punk rock to me was really fascinating, because I had been a big classic rock fan during the ‘70s and then got a little disinterested and felt like it wasn’t really speaking to me anymore. When this whole punk rock thing came up in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s it was just really eye opening. The music was exciting, the fashion was fun.
And I made friends with a lot of the bands in Boston. Boston was a unique development environment for bands at the time, because you didn’t need to make a record. You could just go into the studio and make a tape. And then you’d make a few copies of the tape and carry it around to the three big radio stations at the time. You’d take it to those three, and then all of a sudden you were broadcasting to the entire Boston metropolitan area. And then, when you’d have a show, people would go. It was just incredible. It was this whole micro-economic development pot there.
It sounds like the process of getting your music heard was a lot simpler then. There were a lot less players, etc.
LG:
Well, you didn’t need a recording contract or any corporate approval to get your message out. As a result of that, there was a big business opportunity in recording radio tapes for bands. I went to the studio – Radiobeat – and that was what they did. It was funny, because the owner was more of an old school punk guy. So when all this new hardcore stuff like SS Decontrol and all the Taang bands were coming into the studio to record, the owner didn’t really like them very much. He didn’t want to be a part of recording some of those bands, so he taught me how to set the levels, and that’s what I ended up doing for a couple years.
A few people like Mike Dreese over at Newbury Comics decided to get into the game. He did the “Boston, Not L.A.” compilations and financed that and the whole Modern Method record label. That was kind of the beginning of that type of recording. At the beginning it was just recording. There was no production involved. It just became clear that there was a whole separate job to do. It was one thing to record the music. And it was another to sit back and say, “Not only can you record the music and make it sound good, but you can also make the music better by suggesting changes, rearranging the songs, suggesting lead guitar parts, harmony vocals, etc.” It was just really eye opening.
Some of the bands didn’t want any suggestions at all and were very protective of their content creation. But others were able to take suggestions and sing the vocal differently – play with all the little things that go into it. It was really a process of teaching yourself how to do it for everyone. And one thing led to another …
You’ve produced a string of super successful acts. And you were in a place where you had exposure to a large volume of recording. What would you advise someone to do that is interested in getting into the production side today? Is it about getting into a bigger studio and being part of as many records as you can?
LG:
At the time, I think there was an element – and there still is an element – of being in the right place at the right time. But then again, there’s also the idea that the more you do something, the better you get at it. You really learn from every single project you do, no matter how big or small it is. If you have your eyes open, you can learn something from it. I happened to be in this little college town where there was a lot of work being done. And opportunities would come up where you’d get out of the college town and go national. Then you really see what’s going on.
The one “golden ticket” – as you referred to it when we were talking the other day – with that time period was going out on the road with Husker Du. That was just an incredible experience in many ways, even just in terms of learning about how to make a financially-profitable tour. But then, just making all the connections with all the different local scenes around the country was huge. It was right after they got hooked up with SST Records. It was really interesting to see how they were running their label and getting everything going.
Getting back to your question, it’s challenging to know how to advise somebody to be a producer these days. One of the things I’ve seen over the years as the labels have downsized and we’ve felt the effects of illegal file sharing is that what was once a very lucrative career has become less lucrative in some ways. In some instances, people are paying one-tenth of what they used to pay for the same kind of content creation. I think a different model is developing now. And I think there will eventually be a way of monetizing music in a better way.
I wanted to ask you a little bit about what you think bands should be doing before starting to work with a producer. Are there specific elements they should have planned out in advance? And then, also, what should they be looking for when they are trying to find a producer that’s a good fit?
LG:
The first part of your question about what they should do is very important. And I know it sounds obvious, but I think a band needs to make a demo of a song that includes the lyrics and the music. That sounds so obvious. But I had a situation with a major label band where they wanted me to book studio time, and they didn’t have any lyrics or melodies written for their music. And I refused to do it, even though it was a big gig.
In my opinion, about 90% of people don’t write well in the studio. So, #1, have a demo of your song that includes the lyrics and melodies. You can always change things later. And now you have tools like GarageBand. The sonic palate you get with that is unbelievable. There’s no excuse for not having a good demo. Some bands have come to me with very elaborate GarageBand demos. And sometimes, it’s difficult to recapture some of the things they’ve done on there, and I end up using them straight out of GarageBand. I bought Logic Audio and trained myself how to use it – not that I would ever really use it in production, but just to extract some of the really cool stuff people were doing on their demos.
The second part of our question about choosing a producer – obviously, you want to go with their track record. If you like the way their records sound, that’s one thing. But the other thing is, I think there are different styles. There are some people who really like to get into the nuts and bolts of the song, take it apart and really be a very active presence in the content creation process. Then there are other people who just sit back and put the right people in the room, make it a party, have fun and have things get done that way.
A band doesn’t always necessarily know what’s best for them. But they usually know whether they’re going to let somebody into that inner circle and be a part of that creative process or whether they really don’t want that. I think that’s one of the big questions you have to ask as a band. And then you have to ask around. It’s pretty easy, because bands talk amongst each other. I think it’s pretty easy to find someone who’s worked with a specific producer you’re thinking of. And it’s easy to ask them what it was like, whether they enjoyed it, etc.
Sometimes there’s a little bit of tough love involved. Artists don’t necessarily want to be told that what they’re doing just isn’t cutting it. So, as a producer you have to deliver that message. And it may not resonate too well with certain egos, but it happens. It’s a difficult thing to manage as a producer.
There are a lot of factors that go into choosing a producer. Not everyone can afford the A-list. And some people might be surprised at their involvement in the project. Sometimes the band ends up working more with their team.
Well, and I’ve been told that if you make a record with Rick Rubin, you meet him once or twice and spend days and days with the engineer. That’s probably not that uncommon with some of the bigger names.
LG:
I agree. And I guess they’re doing it more as an executive producer than a hands-on guy. I never really could do that, and I think the people I’ve worked with have enjoyed the contribution I’ve made to their material and their music.
You’ve worked with hundreds and hundreds of bands and artists. Of the ones who made it vs. the ones who didn’t, was there a specific type of personality or a work ethic they all shared? Is success a random spattering of luck, or are there some common traits?
LG:
I think there’s a very large element of randomness to it. Some of the people who were least prepared for the studio in advance ended up having some of the most successful records. The Goo Goo Dolls is one example of that. On the record I did, they had demoed a few songs, but very few of them were finished melodically and lyrically. And that’s one of the most successful records I’ve done.
I don’t really think you can see any personality traits or work ethic that’s a recipe for success. A lot of it has more to do with somehow identifying with this elusive idea of just being able to write a musical phrase or melodic phrase that really sticks in people’s heads. It’s funny, because I’ve had this conversation hundreds of times with bands: “You wrote this great verse of a song here, and it’s building up to a chorus. And now you have a chorus that is lyrically so complicated that no one could ever possibly remember it or walk around singing it. How do you expect this song to be successful?” I think there’s an element of simplicity that has to be there.
Unfortunately, it gets carried too far, and people dumb things down a lot. I’ve always tried to work with people who want to make the music in a clever way, understanding the constraints of the medium and understanding that you have to play the game a little bit; you have to have a repeatable chorus if you want people to remember the song. But you don’t always have to structure it “verse, chorus, verse, chorus, middle eight, double chorus.” There are ways to structure a song that can make it very unconventional, but still memorable.
To learn more about Lou Giordano and the work he’s done throughout his 30-year career, you can visit him on LinkedIn.
Jonathan Mann is a singer/songwriter who has been writing and recording one song per day since January 1, 2009 for his Song A Day project. For over 1,000 days, he has been posting a daily – usually humorous – song to YouTube that touches upon news and current events. A graduate of Bennington College in Vermont, Jonathan started playing guitar and writing songs when he was inspired by the music of Bob Dylan at age 12. Song A Day has earned him a great deal of press attention and brought him a number of interesting collaborative projects. He has appeared on The Rachel Maddow Show and has been commissioned to write songs for companies including Apple, TechCrunch, Dobly, ChaCha, Cisco, Microsoft, Groupon and AirBnB. Last spring, he used the crowdfunding site Kickstarter to raise $13,000, which funded his record Song A Day: The Album.
I got to talk to Jonathan about how he started in music, techniques that help him continue to be a prolific artist and how other musicians can leverage YouTube and other online and offline tools to get their music heard, find opportunities for collaboration and grow their fan bases.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Jonathan. How did you become a musician?
JM:
I started playing guitar when I was 12, about 13-14 years ago. And, as happens when you’re just on the cusp of being a teenager, you get really intense about something. The thing I got really intense about was Bob Dylan. I had grown up listening to his music because my parents always listened to it. But, whatever happens at that point in a teenage mind, happened in mind. Something clicked, and it seems like overnight I started to really hear him for the first time. Basically, from that moment forward, I knew I wanted to write songs like him.
As soon as I started playing guitar, I started writing songs. And all those early songs sounded like a 12-year old trying to write songs like Bob Dylan, and not particularly well. But I really learned song structure from him. He has a way with words, to put it mildly. And his lyrics have this opaqueness; the meaning isn’t always obvious in some of my favorite songs of his. The words and the music together just create an overall feeling.
I continued to write songs and did a bunch of other things along the way. I went to college at a small liberal arts school in southern Vermont called Bennington College, which was a very hippy-dippy kind of place, and I really loved it. But I always found myself struggling with wanting to write more songs. People often describe what writer’s block feels like, and I realized that’s really what I was experiencing. What was so awful about writer’s block was that it wasn’t that I didn’t feel like creating and therefore wasn’t creating; it was that I had this creative impulse and wanted to be making music. But I would sit down and try to write, and I couldn’t. So, it wasn’t that the desire was there. The strong desire was actually what made it so awful when the songs just weren’t coming.
It’s all in hindsight of course that I recognize the problems. But, I started coming up with ways to force myself to write. One of the early techniques I came up with was in college. A friend of mine came up with a silly idea. We sat down one night with a little cassette recorder and had a couple beers. And we decided we were going to write 40 songs that night, and that each song would be only 40-seconds long. We had a stopwatch to time each other so we could make sure we didn’t go over the time limit. And we decided that wherever we were in the song after 40 seconds, we would stop and move onto the next song.
Did that help with writer’s block, and did anything real come out of those “40 in 40”?
JM:
Absolutely. Out of those 40 songs, what I noticed was that three or four of them ended up being the germs of really great songs. In fact, we fleshed out one or two of them, and they ended up being really big hits around campus – songs that people really responded to when we played them live. In my career so far with songwriting, the experience of that night has really stuck in my mind.
Also, in college, another friend of mine and I wrote a rock opera. Looking back, I can see clearly that writing this rock opera was really just a way to keep myself writing songs, because it was a way to not start from scratch. A lot of times you’re sitting down to write a song. And you might be starting with a feeling or something else, but mostly you’re just sitting there with a blank page.
And by that, do you mean that the rock opera gave you some kind of container or some constraints, so your choices became less infinite?
JM:
That’s exactly it. In this instance, we had written out a story together collaboratively about a race of aliens. The story had all these points and beats that needed songs. And so, it was the constraint of, “Here are the topics you need to write songs about. Now, go do it.” We both ended up writing about 20 songs apiece in a matter of weeks because we had this opera to focus on.
I did more of this rock opera writing in college. And it became really clear to me that all these exercises were simply constraints I was putting on myself in order to keep me writing songs and keep me happy. I realized I was happiest when I was creating a lot. And what better way to create a lot than to put the blinders on and get a bit myopic – focus in on something so songs would come more easily?
I can imagine these techniques have continued to help you. Are you still doing the Song A Day project?
JM:
Yes. And I’ve created well over 1,000 songs now. As of today, I’m at 1,063.
And you’ve literally written a song and put it up on YouTube every day for 1,063 days?
JM:
That’s right. And Song A Day came later. Looking back on all the different things I’ve done, it’s almost funny to me that I didn’t hit upon it sooner, because it seems so obvious now. To tell you the truth, I thought about writing a song a day before. I got a flyer in late 2008 for this project called Fun-a-Day. And Fun-a-Day is an art project on the Internet and in the real world, where artists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are invited to create a piece of art for every day of January. And people do all kinds of things, from sculpture, to painting, to poems. And they also do more outlandish things, like performance art and any kind of offbeat art you can imagine. This project has been going on for eight years for the entire month of January. And then, at the end of January, everyone gets together in different regions throughout the world: There’s a gathering in the Bay Area and one in Philadelphia, Berlin, etc. They have a big art show where everyone shows off their work in a gallery. Musicians can perform, and it’s really cool.
So, I got a flyer for this project, and it became the seed for Song A Day. At the end of January, I was having such a great time with it, that I didn’t see any reason to stop. I reached 100 songs, and felt I had to keep going. I realized that for me, it was the ideal way for me to keep myself creative.
And you mentioned a 70-20-10 rule: 70% of songs are so-so, 20% are not so hot and 10% are really good. Has that held true through the thousands of songs you’ve made?
JM:
I would say that’s definitely been the case. I think that holds true for most artists. It was something I noticed early on with the 40-second songs, the various rock opera projects and even the times I tried to put together albums. I would have a collection of songs, and that would be the ratio. Out of 10 songs, maybe one or two are stellar. Another few of them are filler. And the rest fall somewhere in between – not terrible and not great. And it seems that rule holds true for almost anything creative.
Of course there’s a caveat to that. It can also be really difficult to tell which songs fall into which category.
I was going to ask you that. There were probably songs that – had you not started the Song A Day project – would’ve never see the light of day. Have you been surprised by really positive reactions to songs you thought weren’t as good as others, or by lack of response to songs that you thought were really great?
JM:
I’ll answer that in two ways. In one way, I’ve definitely been really surprised. But one thing I’ve learned from doing this in public is, even a song that nine out of ten people dislike and that you yourself dislike as the creator, there’s going to be someone somewhere that responds to it really positively. I think that’s just human nature and shows the range of people’s tastes.
But, at the same time, I’m so wrapped up in it, and the songs go by so quickly. When I’m working on a song, it’s very rare that I think, “This is a crappy song.” As a songwriter, if you have that feeling, you go in another direction to make the song less crappy. So, I’d say that while you’re working on the thing, you’re never thinking about how bad it is.
Well, in my experience – and mind you, I’ve written considerably fewer songs than you – I would lay something down and revisit it the next day and think, “Boy, what was I thinking?” But you really don’t have the time to reflect on that, because it’s up and live.
JM:
Yeah. And I’ve had that experience and the reverse of that experience. I’ve laid something down and liked it and then the next day, not liked it. And I’ve also laid something down and really disliked it, then the next day have realized I’m really excited about it.
The other thing that’s really struck me with Song A Day is all the songs I’ve written that would’ve not seen the light of day had I not been doing this project. It’s a weird idea to me that I have all these songs that exist inside of me. And once or twice a week, I’ll write something that just comes out, and I think, “Where did that come from? I’m so glad I’m doing Song A Day, because now I have this song that I’m really into.” It only strengthens my resolve to keep doing it. If I stop, it just means there will be more songs I’ll never write.
I’m sure you have a lot of fellow musician friends. One of the most common complaints I get from musicians when I suggest that they create music, video and content as regularly as possible around their music is, people want everything to be really polished and clean. I can’t imagine in turning out the volume you have that all the performances have been completely tight. Still, you’ve had success with this project and feel good about it. Have you found that when you’re constantly generating material, people forget the songs that are not good and gravitate towards the ones that are? How has your experience been different from the experience of so many of these other musicians?
JM:
It’s hard for me to say. On the one hand, I would definitely say that I think material that is polished is great. But I think the idea that everything you put out needs to be polished is a little bit overrated. Like you said, people will ignore things they don’t like, and gravitate towards things they do like.
I’ve had a lot of success with Song A Day, namely through people finding me and asking me to come on TV shows or come play conferences. They’ve wanted to collaborate on projects with me just because of the fact that I’m out there all the time. But on the other hand, my overall audience has remained relatively small. And I think part of that may be due to over saturation.
Well, and it seems like it’s hard to say. Most people struggle to get an audience at all. The average musician out there has friends, family and occasionally a really keen supporter or two who brings out his/her friends and extended friends every once in a while. But most people don’t have an audience. The vast majority of musicians out there are aspiring and don’t have a real fan base. But you do.
JM:
That’s definitely very true. So, I guess if you put it into that perspective, what I’ve done and continue to do definitely works. I like to think that I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum from the end most musicians and artists are on. I don’t really have any perfectionism in me. In fact, I almost have none. I would rather do something quickly and get it to be as good as I can get it in that moment and put it out and see what happens rather than spend a lot of time on something. I tend to get tired of a song really quickly when I’m just focusing on it the way I feel a lot of my peers do. Perfectionism has so many strengths to it. But I also think my way has strengths as well. I think a perfectionist can learn from the way I create in the same way that I learn when I collaborate with friends who spend a lot more time on a song. I love that type of collaboration, because it is such a novelty for me and so different.
You started songwriting and getting into music very young, so you’ve been at this a while. Are there some things you wish you’d known going in about online marketing, social media, creating music in general? What have you learned that you feel has made your process more efficient?
JM:
That’s an interesting question. And it’s almost difficult for me to answer, because I’m not sure I really have figured that game out completely.
Well, and I don’t know that anyone has it figured out. It’s all still the Wild West. But were there times you’ve looked back on where you were spinning your wheels, and you’ve thought, “Wow. If I met myself when I was 18, I’d tell myself …”?
JM:
To tell you the truth, I sometimes wish I had started doing the Song A Day earlier, and that I had hit on this process. On the other hand, things work out the way they do for a reason.
One thing I still think I could do better on, and I wish I were more adept at is simply collaborating. I think collaboration is key for musicians. And it’s a whole different ballgame than working by yourself. I’m definitely open to it. I have a lot of musician friends, and whenever we get together and collaborate, it’s always wonderful.
One of the biggest things I’ve observed regarding YouTube is that you have to collaborate. If you want to grow your audience, you find people that you like and that you respect from YouTube, and you reach out to them with a good idea, then collaborate with them and make something. That way, your audience gets to see them, and their audience gets to see you. I started making online video in 2005 right when YouTube started. And had I known that collaboration was one of the biggest tricks on that platform, maybe I would’ve done more of that.
Like you said, it’s still very much the Wild West. And I feel like my particular project is a long game.
I think any projects that are worth having are long term.
JM:
Right. And who knows what new things will come up?
Ever since you and I first connected, I’ve wanted to ask you a question about time management. How do you manage to have a normal life and fit in doing a song and a video a day? I’m sure you’ve had to juggle things around. I know a lot of musicians who would love to be able to do a project like this. Do you have any advice for them about making time?
JM:
It’s definitely a challenge. I’ve been lucky. When I started the project, I was essentially unemployed. I had a small bit of freelance work. As I’ve been continuing the project, the freelance work has become denser. But the nature of freelancing gives me a lot of time to do this.
With any job I’ve had, I’ve always experienced in-between times. And often, the time spent getting to work and coming back from work – all other times like those – I’ve used for idea generation. Any time I’ve been working on songs, a lot of really great ideas have come out of those in-between times. And there are ways to utilize that time to maximum efficiency.
Otherwise, it’s really just about commitment. You just have to commit to doing it. I would also encourage people to do a song a day, even if just for the period of time they do Fun-a-Day. January is coming up. Just challenge yourself to do it for a month. Once you commit yourself to it, it just becomes part of your life. That’s what happened to me. My friends and family know that’s just what I do. So, a lot of times I’ll be around them and say, “Okay, I haven’t done my song yet, and it’s 9 p.m. I have to go do this.” Often, that’s all finding the time is. So often, all I have time to do is sit down with a guitar for 20 minutes and write down the first thing that comes to me.
And sometimes the songs that come out of even that little time are great.
JM:
Exactly. What you do when you do that is set yourself up to make great music. If you do that every day, just by sheer probability, something you make is going to be great.
To learn more about Jonathan and his music (or even to talk to him about collaboration), please visit the official Jonathan Mann website. If you want to check out some of the inspiration behind Jonathan’s Song A Day or get involved in a similar project yourself, take a look at Artclash Collective’s Fun-a-Day project.
Below is a video introduction to Jonathan and Song A Day:
Mathieu Santos is one of the founding members of and the bassist for the New York City-based orchestral-pop indie band Ra Ra Riot, signed to Barsuk Records. He and his fellow band members met in January 2006 during their last semester of college at Syracuse University. The band has since released several albums and EPs, toured throughout the country and has had their songs placed in film and television. Ra Ra Riot’s album The Orchard was nominated for an Independent Music Award in January, 2011. In August, Mat released his first solo album, Massachusetts 2010.
I recently spoke with Mat about how Ra Ra Riot came to be, what he has learned about touring and building a band and some advice he has for artists that want to make music their career.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, Mat. How did you get started with Ra Ra Riot?
MS:
We all met at Syracuse University and officially formed in January, 2006. None of us knew each other before the band started. Milo, our guitarist, was the link between everyone; he brought us all together. We all met for the first time at our first practice.
And it just clicked.
MS:
Yeah. Originally, it was just supposed to be something to do during our last semester at school – a fun thing to do for a few months. It did end up being so much fun, and we were able to build up a little bit of a following within the campus community. So, we decided to keep it going in the summer and book our first tour.
It’s interesting: As a kid, I played in a band at NYU, and after college, I was met with the very harsh reality of how much harder it is once you can’t knock on everyone’s door in your dorm room, and when you no longer have that centralized mechanism of a campus. How did you go about booking a tour when you hadn’t toured previously?
MS:
We were pretty lucky, because right from the very beginning we had a really great manager, Josh, who was a really good friend of ours at Syracuse. He was actually living in the house that we were living in, so he just became our manager by default. He was a management major at Syracuse and was also interning for Sony Records at the time. He was already pretty savvy about the music industry, as was Rebecca, our violin player, because she was a music industry major. We were fortunate enough to have friends in our circle who knew a little bit about what they were doing.
The first tour we booked was pretty bare bones – a lot of small clubs in the Northeast. There were eight shows over a two-week span. It wasn’t anything too grand, but it was enough to get a taste for it and get a little something going. It was nice because having left school, everyone knew someone in every city we played in. We had at least a small crowd come out.
So it was really that simple: “Who do we know in this town? Whose couch can we crash on here, and how can we get people out?”
MS:
Exactly. It was a lot of fun. We rented an old police van and just did it. We didn’t really know what we were doing. But it went okay. And it was fun enough for us to want to try to do it again on a little bit bigger scale.
Obviously, a lot of bands aren’t lucky enough to have a guy like Josh, who I’ve talked to on and off since I saw you guys play at a Ben Sherman – of all places – in 2006. A lot of people don’t get that lucky to have somebody with a lot of practical experience who is really dedicated and just says, “Come hell or high water, money be damned, I’m going to manage that band.” From your perspective, what did you do to grow your band? Which elements and techniques wound up being the most effective for growing a fan base?
MS:
The time we were starting out was when Myspace had reached its pinnacle as an influential tool for bands. So, that helped a lot. Working with Josh was great for everyone, because we couldn’t have gone as far as we did without him. And he probably couldn’t have done as much without a client like us. It worked out perfectly that it was the first band he managed and the first real band we had played in. It was a great symbiotic environment. And it still is today.
In general, the internet was a major help. And Josh is good at making connections. The first thing that really helped us get to the next level was CMJ, which we played the first year we were together, in the Fall of 2006. By then, we had done a bunch of really small tours. And then CMJ worked really well for us. We got a lot of positive coverage on a lot of blogs and a few other publications too as a result.
Did you have a publicist at that time, or was that all Josh just making cold calls?
MS:
At that time, I honestly don’t remember. But it was probably mostly just Josh. I think it was at that CMJ that we met our lawyer, our booking agent and our first publicist. Up until then, we were still doing everything ourselves.
I realize everyone has their own perspective based on their unique life experiences and path in the music business. But you weren’t a band for very long before you had your first booking agent come on board.
MS:
It happened within about the first eight months.
There are so many bands that do well in a lot of different markets and can’t get anyone to take a risk on them. Talent aside, what do you think you guys were doing right that made an agent jump on board?
MS:
When we first formed at Syracuse we formed primarily to be a house party band, which was all that was going on at school. There were a couple clubs on campus, but mostly we played house parties. Our whole performance was tailored to that environment, so there was a lot of uninhibited energy and a lot of interaction with the crowd. We were just having a lot of fun, and our whole idea was just to keep doing it as long as that was still the case. I think a lot of people related to that when they saw us play. It was a fun, un-self-conscious, energetic thing that was different from what a lot of people were doing at the time.
We were really nervous coming into CMJ, because it was our first big thing, and we knew it was also a very industry-focused event. But we tried not to think about it too much and just did what we did. We got so much positive feedback from it, that we knew we were going in a good direction.
And it was right around that time that you started to have labels, publishers and people sniffing around. How would you recommend that people starting out get that attention and then how should they deal with it?
MS:
It was a little confusing, a little scary. It takes a while to gauge where people are coming from. But it was also very exciting, especially since we didn’t expect to be playing together beyond just one semester. Then, we did a couple tours, and CMJ came. And it was the first time we started considering the possibility of doing the band as a full-time gig. We thought, “Wow, there’s really interest. We can actually make the leap from the college environment to touring the country.” It was just a matter of listening the feedback of everyone that was interested in working with us. A lot of it was just feeling everyone out and trying to pick the people who we thought wanted to work with us for the right reasons. That idea has always been really important to us.
It was a little daunting, but we were all in it together. It was the first time any of us had ever experienced anything like it, so it was a galvanizing thing, and we were just really excited to take the next step.
It seems almost like it’s similar to all of a sudden waking up one morning and looking like a Playboy model. Suddenly, everyone wants something from you. It’s very strange. I’ve seen people weather that not so gracefully. But it seems like things have worked out for you.
You mentioned on the Uncensored Interview website that surviving in the music business and doing the DIY thing was very different than what you’d imagined. What are the big, key things you’d want to tell yourself if you were starting over?
MS:
That’s an interesting question. For us, because every step of the way has been a pleasant surprise, I think we’ve always just been excited that whatever is happening is happening. In retrospect, when we look back at our first tour and how bad the conditions were – sleeping in rest stops every other night, etc. – it’s surprising, because at the time it was really exciting. I think we’ve been really cautious the whole time to always trust our gut with the people we work with. That’s definitely served us well.
At the beginning we were definitely a bit naïve in terms of trusting people. On one of our first tours, we had a horrible incident in Montreal. Our van was broken into, and everyone’s laptops, phones and cameras were stolen. It was a situation where we left the van alone for maybe ten minutes. But we weren’t that careful. Now we’re a bit too paranoid for our own good. But it’s better to be prepared than to get ripped off like that. There’s no worse feeling than being really far away from home, having everything taken and just feeling lost. A van with a trailer is a pretty easy target.
I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head that I would do differently. Every step has been such a big learning process for us. We knew nothing about touring the first tour we went on and we knew nothing about recording the first time we went into the studio. But we’ve learned all these things over the years.
I know that questions about your experiences become difficult questions to answer after a while, not because the answers are difficult but because it becomes harder and harder to divorce yourself from the experiences as time progresses. What are some small, practical things you’ve learned about touring?
MS:
Touring is always tough, because a complete lifestyle change can happen in as little as a day. One day, you’re at home and comfortable; the next day, you’re in a van for the next four-and-a-half weeks. It usually takes a while to adjust. The two-week mark is always the hump that’s the hardest to get over. I think we’ve all learned to take touring day by day and not get overwhelmed by the scale of it. If you focus just on what you have to do that day, it makes everything pretty easy to get through. It’s all about finding a system that works for you.
You guys are all still pretty young. But are there things you’ve found you have to be careful of in regards to your health while on tour?
MS:
Lately, a lot of us have been finding more time to go for a run or do other things like that while we’re on tour. Taking out time to do that is really important. You also need alone time and time to reset and take care of your body after you’ve been sitting in a van all day.
We also do try to eat well. It’s a little difficult to do, but if you can find a Whole Foods every day, it makes a big difference. Actually, that’s one of the most important things: Nothing can boost morale more than a good meal. Sometimes it gets hard to find places in the middle of nowhere, but it’s totally worth it if you can make the effort to find good food.
Do you have any additional advice for artists just starting out that want to make music a career?
MS:
Our main guiding motto has always been, “Let’s have fun, and let’s keep doing it as long as we’re still having fun.” We’ve had times in the past where we’ve stopped to reconsider and have asked ourselves, “Do we still want to do this? Are we still having fun?” And we have always decided that yes, we are. We don’t want to be doing anything else. I would tell other musicians, “Just do what feels right. Trust your gut and your instincts.”
Building a good team is also really important. People will tell you a lot of things and make a lot of promises. But you really have to get a feel for the people you work with. And you have to know they’re in it for the right reasons and that they care about your music and your career. It’s very important to be close to the people you work with.
But really, as long as you’re having fun, everything else will fall into place.
To learn more about Mathieu Santos, visit the Ra Ra Riot website and check out his solo album Massachusetts 2010. You can watch the interview the band did for Uncensored Interview below.
Marianne Bennett is the founder of Marianne Bennett Productions and Element Music, two high-end music event companies that book entertainment for private events. She got her start in the music industry in the 1980s as a rock/pop singer/songwriter, performing in venues throughout New York City such as The Bitter End, Kenny’s Castaways, The Limelight and CBGBs. She first got involved in the music events industry when she worked as a wedding and private events vocalist for hire. Eventually, she combined her love of performing with her passion for the business side of music and decided to start her own music event company.
Recently, I got to talk to Marianne about her experience in the industry, how artists can break into the private events space and why passion and dedication are critical to a successful career in the music business.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Marianne. How did you get started in music?
MB:
I started as a songwriter and a performer in an original rock/pop band playing all the downtown New York City clubs, like The Bitter End, Kenny’s Castaways, The Limelight, CBGBs, etc. I just was always performing all the time and had a great love for songwriting and singing.
Right after college, I decided to pursue my artist career. At that time, which was in the 1980s, the music business was very different from how it is now. Obviously we didn’t have all the social networking we have now or the internet. So the way artists carved out their own path was to constantly approach label people, play as often as possible, try to get their demo tapes in the right hands at the right time with the right people, etc. It was a very different time. I played frequently in the clubs and tried to meet and greet whoever I could. Eventually I got hired at CBS Records, which is now Sony. I was trying to get myself in front of whatever record executives I could so I could have people around to submit my demo tapes to. It was a very exciting time, but very different from the way things are now. I actually think this is a great time for artists, because there are so many possibilities, and so many different ways to get yourself exposed and get people to see who you are.
Over the years – after pursuing my artist career and realizing I was meant for other things in music – I slowly started getting into the event industry and producing music events for social occasions, everything ranging from corporate events, weddings, fashion release parties, opening night galas for Broadway shows, etc. It’s been a great journey and a lot of fun. Now I run Element Music, which is a high-end music events company. We have people that travel throughout the world and the U.S. But primarily, most of our work is in New York.
I get asked all the time by artists, “How do I get my band hired to play covers at corporate events, weddings and other similar places?” How did you make the transition between being an artist and getting corporate gigs?
MB:
Like many things in life, this happened by chance. When you’re an up-and-coming artist trying to get yourself out there, you still have to pay your bills. I started doing wedding work as a vocalist to pay my rent. And as I got more entrenched in that business, I found it really interesting how every weekend I found myself working with unbelievably talented people. There were so many people like me that were original artists and needed to pay their rent. I found it to be a really great time to get to know a lot of musicians, songwriters, etc. So, how I really transitioned was through that need to put food on the table, get the rent paid, etc. But it ended up being something I really enjoyed. I had also always enjoyed the business side of music. And in the event industry, you really have to have the ability to deal with all different types of people and their needs, and that happens to be something I’m good at.
Having access to musicians certainly seems like the easy side of the equation. But how did you go about putting together the right marketing materials? Also, a lot of people try to put together event companies and have live music for hire and fail dismally. What is it about your corporate approach that is different from the approach of the other people that don’t make it?
MB:
I think really it’s about dedicating yourself to what you’re doing and having a passion and love for what you’re doing. If you have those elements, the people you work with will pick up on that. I feel really strongly that anyone who is an artist, whether a songwriter or a person that runs an event company like myself – if you are anyone who has something that involves your passion, you really love what you do and know how to present it to other people in your marketing tools. Truthfully, I never had really fancy marketing tools; I just had a great love for what I was doing and a great belief in myself. I portrayed that on a day-to-day basis with all the people I would meet in my travels as a musician. I find that all the musicians I’ve known over the years that have had great success in their own careers – even if it’s in different legs of the music industry – all have this one thing in common: A dedication to working hard every day at what you do, and having the ability to share that with people you meet all the time. I can’t say I had any fancy marketing tools in the beginning, because in the beginning there was lack of cash flow, so I could only work with what I had.
I am surrounded by musicians who are having the damndest time getting gigs. And it sounds like both on the artist side and on the corporate side, you’re not even bringing that topic up, because it sounds like it has never been a big struggle for you; it always came naturally to you. How is it that you found yourself always playing, and what advice would you give for someone that wants to always find ways to play?
MB:
You have to grab every opportunity. If you’re a vocalist – and I tell this to all the singers that work for me – whatever your craft is, you have to take every opportunity you have. The opportunity might be singing for free in the library, but you need to get heard wherever you can and wherever there is an audience. The gig might be paid or unpaid, but it’s about honing in on your craft and perfecting your craft. If you’re a great performer and a great entertainer, people are going to be attracted to you and offer you work. It’s that simple. If you have something that is engaging and keeps people interested, people will offer you work. I’ve always followed that principle throughout my career.
So, it’s honestly just about playing as much as possible and being known, using one gig at a time to meet people. And it sounds like that’s what enabled you to found this corporate company.
MB:
Yes. In the earlier stages of my career, anytime anyone had an opportunity for me, I grabbed it, no matter what it was. You never know who is listening to you or who is in the room. I have a great story about that. Years ago, I performed at an event. It was at a really cheesy catering venue out on Long Island. And there happened to be someone at that event that thought what I did was great, and he offered me a job. You never know who is out there. It’s a willingness to get yourself out there and be dedicated to it all the time. I was just reading about an artist yesterday that said the same thing. She said it was just about doing it night and day. She gets up in the morning and does the things she needs to do just to pay for her life. While she’s out – whether it’s at her job or just when she’s out for coffee – she’s always talking about what she does with other people and all that is involved in what she does. It’s about networking all the time and constantly talking up what you do. Personally, I think it’s a non-stop process. And then people pick up on it. I wish I could say there was some magic answer, but there’s not. It’s just an intuitiveness and a belief.
I agree with you. I don’t think there is a magic pill. If you met yourself now when you were just starting out, is there any advice you would give yourself that you think would’ve helped you out a great deal?
MB:
Yes. Throughout my own career, there are many times I see opportunities that I didn’t recognize. When I look back at my accomplishments, I’m pleased with what I’ve done. But I definitely would’ve changed how I handled certain opportunities. I think if you have an opportunity, it’s important to jump on it right away, and not even wait a few days to get back to somebody or to give a bio or your photos out. You really have to be on top of your emailing. Of course, when I started, it was about phone calls and tapes and sticking things in the mail and getting your photo out. That’s one thing I wish I’d done better.
To learn more about Marianne Bennett and her work, you can visit the Marianne Bennett Productions and Elements Music websites. You can also follow her on Twitter as MBennettMusic.
Robert Smith is a seasoned producer, engineer and mixer who runs Defy Recordings in New York City. A musician and avid record collector since the age of 11, Robert got his start in the music industry when he moved from his home town in upstate New York to New York City in 1986 and immediately threw himself into the studio. He got his professional start at Green Street Recording studio – known in the 1980s as the home base for Def Jam Records – and had the opportunity to work frequently with Jam-Master Jay and Run DMC as well as with Public enemy and R&B legend Allison Williams. From there, he went onto work at the Hit Factory and also Power Station Studios. During that time, he made records with an array of artists across many genres, including Michael Jackson, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder, David Bowie, David Sandborn and Luther Vandross. Robert also helped start and grow a multi-media company where he worked on post production on film scores and major commercials with clients such as Reebok, Coca-Cola, Oil of Olay and Proctor and Gamble. Eventually, he decided to return to his love for music and focus on Defy Recordings.
Recently, I talked to Robert about his experience in the music business, some advice he has for folks that want to get involved on the production side and why he feels persistence and fearlessness are the keys to success for anyone that wants to achieve real career longevity.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Robert. How did you come to be an engineer and producer?
RS:
I moved to New York City from upstate New York in 1986. I’ve been a huge record collector since I was about 11-years old. I’ve never done anything else but immerse myself in music since then. I’ve been very lucky to have been at the right place at the right time. I began working at many studios around town starting in the late 1980s, and it just grew and grew, and here I am, still doing it.
Who are some of the people you’ve worked with during the course of your career?
RS:
One of the first people I worked a lot with was Jam-Master Jay of Run DMC. The first studio I worked with was Green Street Recording, and it was pretty much the unofficial home base of Def Jam Records. For the first year of my career I was working in the same studio as Run DMC and Public Enemy. Def Jam also had a lot of R&B stuff like Allison Williams, Orange Juice Jones, who were keeping us really busy. My first recording session was 24-hours long. And I thought, “How am I going to do this?” But it was amazing.
Then I got a job at the Hit Factory. And that meant working with artists like Michael Jackson, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder and Mariah Carey. I worked a lot with her right before she got her record deal. At the time, everyone was at that place.
From there, I went to the Power Station where I worked with David Bowie, David Sandborn and Luther Vandross. The only people I didn’t get chance to work directly with who were recording there were Madonna and Bruce Springsteen, though I did talk about fish with Springsteen once when we were looking at a fish tank. That’s about as close as I got to it.
I went freelance from there. And I tried something a little different by starting a multi-media company with two partners. We did post production on film scores and big commercials for advertising. Our clients were Reebok, Coca Cola, Oil of Olay and Proctor and Gamble. We did a lot of movies, like the movie Waitress with Keri Russell, which did really well. I did that for about five years and then decided to go out on my own again. We were fortunate because our multi-media company got big pretty quickly. By the time I left, we had 20 employees and two floors of a building. But I wasn’t really interested in meetings; I was still all about the music. So, I decided to re-focus on that side of it and continue what I really love to do. And I am fortunate to still be doing it in this day and age.
It sounds like you didn’t spend much time as a performing musician. You just got right behind the board.
RS:
Yes. Before I moved to the city, I played bass for a while in a band and I was also a DJ. But I liked the tech side of it and was definitely drawn to that side of the glass pretty quickly. It’s not like I moved to the city and played with bands; I moved right into the studio, and that was pretty much it.
And you’ve been at it from 1986, to 2011. Are you doing more production or engineering these days?
RS:
I’m probably doing more engineering and mixing. I produce on average about five albums per year. But I’m working every day on mixing, mastering and engineering.
You’ve been around for 25 years making records. I’m sure a vast number of the people you started working alongside are no longer in the business. What did you do that other people didn’t?
RS:
Many have been long gone. It’s an insane business. I guess you could call it a business with an incredibly bad business model. What I mean by that is that if you’re looking to have a career, have a family, buy a house, go on vacation and have a 401K, this is not the way to do it.
I get students all the time asking me what it’s like. I remember an email I got from a high school student in Arizona with what looked like a standard-issue questionnaire in it including questions like, “How many hours do you work per week?” And I thought, “I don’t know … Zero, to 100?” Those questions are more for someone that works in a bank. This has never really been a job. It’s way more of a “life” than your standard-issue career where you look forward to your retirement. For me, it’s just been about persistence. And also, I wouldn’t know how to do anything else. I’ve been doing this for so long that it’s what I do and who I am.
Let me reverse the question. What were some of the traits of the guys that didn’t make it?
RS:
I don’t know why, but that’s a tougher question than I might have thought it would be. With those guys, a lot of it had to do with family stuff. Once you get married and have kids, it’s a little harder to justify being up until four or five in the morning every night, getting home when it’s sunny out and then having to come back again early evening. It’s an “all in” thing. If you really want to do it, you need to really immerse yourself in it. The people that didn’t hang in always treated it like a job or a part-time gig. They were around for four or five years, but then they just got out. If you want something normal and stable, this isn’t the job for you.
Let’s talk about the musician side of things. Because of your long list of credits, you must get approached often by relatively unknown bands. Other than somebody that can string together a good handful of sentences and has a high-quality recording – which is of course the X-Factor – are there things people should do to prepare before reaching out to you that will make their project more desirable?
RS:
Sure. The biggest thing I miss from the major label days is the filtering process. If you were signed to Columbia in 1990 and in front of me in the studio, it meant you had passed the test; you had dealt with the A&R guys, the managers and had recorded the demos. By the time you got to me, you could generally write a song and sing, because back then we couldn’t fix your performances as much as we can now. I knew you were at a certain quality level, because no one would’ve invested that kind of money in you as an artist unless they thought they could get it back. I miss that side of it, because there are so many artists I get approached by now that don’t know that process. There is an unprofessional side to it now, which means there is a lot of grooming I end up having to do that I didn’t have to do before because a lot of it had already been taken care of: how to sing in tune; how to really play an instrument and all those things you would do if playing music your job. When someone hasn’t had that kind of experience, I have to groom them towards that, which can be a lot of extra work.
That makes it sound like your job description has shifted and now includes making up for people’s lack of shedding time and education.
RS:
Completely. It seems like part of my job now is to have a chat first and say, “Here’s what we’re going to do today.” There’s always some kind of story involved. The benefit of my experience is that I’ve seen just about everything. So, when someone comes in and we’re having a terrible time, I’m able to steer it some way; I can apply an antidote. I think that’s why I’ve been really busy too, because I’ve been fortunate to come up in the days of tape, and I’ve been around some really classic records and know how to get the right sound because I was there at the beginning. In that sense, it’s been great. I’m still young enough that I can relate to younger artists. But I’ve been around enough that I know how to edit tape and what people talk about when they are thinking about the “golden days” of analog and a certain sound.
Along those lines, for people wanting to perfect their craft behind the glass, there are a lot less opportunities like the ones both of us had coming up. There are a lot less studios in business. What advice would you give to somebody that has a pirated copy of Pro-Tools and are trying to figure this out on their own? How can they compete with an education with the guys out there that knew analog?
RS:
The advice I always give is, “Find a mentor.” I was really fortunate to have learned from all the best people on the planet. The guy who was a mentor for me for the first two years was buddies with Queen and was one of the engineers on “Bohemian Rhapsody.” He shoved me into this. It’s that whole idea of throwing people into the deep end and seeing if they can swim or not.
I have an example. A kid from Texas wrote me, and she wanted to come to New York and be a producer. She was 19, and I said, “You probably shouldn’t do that right now, because all you’re going to do is come here, clean toilets and try to find a job. You’ll barely be able to eat and pay your rent.” And she had never been in a studio. I said, “What you should do is stay in your town, find somebody that owns a studio and learn everything you can from them. If you don’t do that, you’re going to be up against kids that have come here from all over the world and have done that. You’re going to be behind right from the start.” So, I advised her to master it in her home town by learning from someone with a studio and learning to be better than they are. Then, she can come to New York with a leg up as opposed to with no clue at all. And no one had ever told her that.
I’m continually surprised by how often people just don’t get any sound advice at all.
Getting to know musicians in the studio as you have for days at a time, what advice would you give artists about relationships with management and labels? Can you talk about any pitfalls to avoid for aspiring musicians and musicians just coming up?
RS:
It’s tricky. It seems like now everyone that used to be in the music business before is now just a consultant. Because the money is now in those types of positions, we’ve all had to figure out ways to use our experience to still get some kind of income and still do what we do. There are those guys that still call themselves managers, but maybe they haven’t really managed. You just have to be really careful and not be too anxious to sign your life away. Throughout the history of music there are stories of people signing contracts that don’t know what they’re doing. And the next thing they know, they’ve signed away everything. It’s been like that from way back in the day and continues to be that way today. An artist will actually have success and then realize they don’t actually own a song or will just get a couple thousand dollars.
Yes. Jacob Slichter of Semisonic wrote a book, So You Wanna Be a Rock & Roll Star, and he described the traditional relationship between label and artist as “rock & roll sharecropping.” And he was right.
RS:
Yeah. There were stories back in the day where the guy would find an artist and give him a couple hundred dollars and a Cadillac. And the artist thought, “Wow, I’m a pop star now.” Little did he know he wasn’t going to see a nickel of record sales that ended up sometimes totaling millions and millions of dollars. You have to be really careful of being that make promises and say, “I can make this, this and this happen.”
I had a friend who actually got onto The Voice, and right before she was going to get on a plane to go to L.A. for six weeks, she got a contract – and thankfully she read the fine print – that said that whether she won or lost, this company would own everything she did for seven years.
That’s the Viacom and American Idol model.
RS:
She actually has had some deals in the past and already had stuff going on, so she decided not to do it. I think if you have nothing going on, you should go for it. But you just have to be really careful and read contracts carefully as opposed to just signing because you’re so anxious to become a pop star. We’ve also heard the stories about someone signing an artist and then putting that person in a box for two years while they figure out what to do with the person. Then all the other interest goes away because the artist is already signed.
It’s pretty amazing what they’ll do. Atlantic was known for this. They would sign an artist from the Southeast and do what I call the “shiny shirt treatment.” The band would get signed and celebrate. Then they would stop doing everything that made them interesting to the label in the first place, and the publicist would say, “You know, you would look better in shiny shirts.” They would give everyone a shiny shirt and take new photos, and then nothing would ever happen. It’s very sad.
Do you have any parting words of advice?
RS:
The people that make it in this industry don’t have any choice. It’s built into them, and they are just so talented that it can’t be denied. In the end, it really depends on how badly you want it. If you just want to come into the studio and do it for a couple years, it’s not going to work. I’ve never seen anybody just dabble and find success. The ones who have made it are “all in” from the very beginning. You don’t have a choice. It is what you’re meant to do.
There is one word describes all the people I’ve seen that have had success: fearlessness. The fearless people always do well. The ones that question and pause are the ones who are still sitting and wondering what happened or asking, “Why isn’t anything happening?”
To learn more about Robert Smith and the work he does, please visit the Defy Recordings website.
Patti Jones, Esq. is an entertainment lawyer based in Boston, MA. She is a classically trained musician with degrees in Music and French from Ripon College, Ripon, Wisconsin, a Masters degree in Music from the Conservatory, University of Missouri, Kansas City, studies in French and Music at the Sorbonne, University of Paris, France and studies at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. She began her career teaching vocal/choral music and directing musical theatre in grades K-12. When she left teaching, she embarked on a biography project on the legendary jazz/blues musician Mose Allison, (One Man’s Blues: the Life and Music of Mose Allison, Quartet Books, London), who had been the topic of her Master’s thesis. She talked to various artists, a process which eventually inspired her to work in entertainment law. During the course of her career, she has worked with many major-label bands, including Orbit (A&M), The Red Telephone (Warner Bros.) and The Urge (Sony/Epic/Immortal). She is responsible for launching the music industry law page for the legal industry publication LexisNexis, is co-chair of the New England chapter of the Copyright Society of the USA, a member of the International Entertainment Lawyers Association, a contributor to the prestigious Grove Dictionary of American Music and also teaches Entertainment Law at New England Law/Boston.
I recently had the chance to sit down with Patti and talk about how she made her way to the music industry, some recent groundbreaking events in music Copyright Law and how new artists can protect their creative property and build careers in the Digital Age.
Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Patti. First of all, how did you get into the music business, and what inspired you to start your own entertainment and music attorney practice?
PJ:
I was a committed music educator before I went to law school and had never intended to become a lawyer. I’m originally from Boston, but my work as a choral/vocal/musical theatre director took me both to Kansas City, MO and New Orleans.
When I decided to leave teaching and classical singing, I had to take a step back and figure out what to do next. I never envisioned that I would combine law with music. The topic of my Master’s thesis was the music of Mose Allison, the famous jazz/blues musician, who is now my client. As his biographer, through my interviews, I had the opportunity to meet legendary figures in the music industry such as the late Atlantic Records president, Ahmet Ertegun, EMI/Blue Note president Bruce Lundvall, and the late Tom Dowd, the famous recording engineer. I also interviewed many artists, mostly from the British invasion. On one interview, I traveled to Chicago to interview Pete Townshend as a first-year law student. He was the one that told me to become a music lawyer. I hadn’t even started the tape and said, “I’m a first-year law student,” and he replied, “Well, you know music really well, why don’t you help us? You should become a music lawyer.” I look at that moment as the turning point where I was actually channeled into the next phase of my life.
Not long after the Townsend interview, a job working for a law office with an attorney who had worked for New Kids on the Block fell down from the sky. During law school, I had a summer internship working in the PolyGram Records Legal Department in New York, reviewing recording, music publishing and movie soundtrack contracts and working on other projects for the Legal and Business Affairs Departments. In that environment, I was able to learn the record business culture from a legal as well as A&R perspective and saw firsthand the passion as well as the pitfalls and politics of that business. Apart from these experiences, there were hardly any entertainment law courses when I was in law school so I took courses in Copyright and Trademark, also called Intellectual Property, to round out my background. When I graduated from law school, there was a major economic recession. I interviewed with law firms and record companies, and had great recommendations and connections, but there were no jobs in either New York or L.A. The last lawyer who interviewed me said, “Go back to Boston. Go home and sign bands, and then everyone will know who you are, and everybody will want to hire you.” I took his advice. .. I got to know my community musically, the Boston music scene and spent time getting to know what was happening at that time in popular music. I spent a lot of time in the clubs talking with and listening to the bands, getting to know the owners, the bookers, the radio people, the scenesters in Boston and then travelled in other cities in New England, like Portland, Providence, and Burlington, VT As a classical musician, I had only performed in concert halls, churches, and although I had attended a few rock concerts growing up, the only real clubs I had really ever gone to were jazz venues. Teaching middle and high school gave me another edge in learning about the music I was hearing because I had learned to listen to “popular” music from the perspective of a 15-year old boy. I taught at an all boys prep school in Kansas City. In fact, Jeff Sosnow, who is in A&R at Interscope and who signed All American Rejects was one of the students there.
Using that part of my skill sets in listening to the music in our local clubs and knowing what I did about the record guys, I got a sense of what might appeal to their audiences. I began representing artists and going to the A&R community to pitch the music in person as well as just meet people to form a network. I would go down to New York for a day and meet anyone who would agree to a talk to me. I would attend music conferences, and then fly to LA to meet people there. I also began writing critiques in a couple of national and local tip sheets about Boston music. At the time, there were lots of artists getting signed from Boston, the clubs were full, the radio stations were playing local music and adding it to the regular rotation playlist and record people were flying up to hear music every week. Two years after I hung my shingle as a lawyer, I was lucky enough to sign my first artist in a major label bidding war. The work for me has always been about kids and music, realizing the potential of those who entrust me with their creative works, and then connecting their creations to the right resources in my network.
What is your practice like today?
PJ:
Because of the changes in the record industry that have had an impact on all areas of the music business, I now work in other areas of entertainment in addition to my music practice. My office represents everyone from literary authors to television show creators and independent filmmakers. I work with several children’s book authors and I also work with tech clients. Much of my practice is in intellectual property, protecting and defending the copyrights and trademarks of my clients. For the last year, I’ve served as co-chair the New England Chapter of the Copyright Society of the USA, bringing various speakers to the Boston area to discuss developments in the copyright area of the law. As a fierce advocate and defender of creators’ rights, I never turn down an opportunity to speak or teach on this issue. My music clients are serious about a career in music and that means that they are equally serious about supporting the continued protection of their exclusive rights to their works.
What advice do you have for artists in this arena? What should musicians do to protect their creative work?
PJ:
There are two fundamental concepts in protecting intellectual properties for musicians. One is in copyright, where registering your composition/song, sound recordings, videos, and any other type of creative property, such as artwork, with the United States Library of Congress for the copyright in your work(s) helps to protect your rights. The other is in trademark or service marks, which identify the goods sold and the performing services rendered. Registering band names and logos as service marks and any goods as trademarks on the federal register with the United States Patent and Trademark Office is also advisable.
Copyright registration is relatively inexpensive. It’s $35 to file on line and depending on the property and authors, the application form is not too complicated. However, the federal applications for service marks or trademarks with respect to goods and services are best served using the counseling of lawyers. It can be a very tricky process and if not executed properly will cost more in time and money to repair and reprocess. The trademark examiners working for the USPTO are attorneys and trademark is an area of particular administrative law. Trademark lawyers are experts and the area of entertainment is even more specialized within the area of trademark law. I never advise musicians to go it alone on the trademark issue.
Copyright relates to original creations and is the legal cornerstone for all of my clients. A copyright is the exclusive “right” to make copies and is defined under the law as “original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed…” For the purpose of music-related activities and properties, copyrights would cover musical works, including any accompanying words, sound recordings, audiovisual works and motion pictures, and pictorial, graphic or sculptural works.
Relating to music properties, a copyright automatically inures in the work as soon as it is fixed in tangible form – this would be once the author writes down or records the music or lyrics. This is considered a common law copyright. Registering the copyright with the Copyright Office, a division of Library of Congress, officially puts the world on notice that this work belongs to the author. To file for a copyright registration, the easiest way to obtain the copyright forms is to do a search online for the Copyright Office. There is a link to the electronic forms on the Copyright Office site.
Every copyright situation has a unique set of authorship facts, and I am often asked what qualifies for copyright protection. Copyright protection is not available for just an idea, a process, a system or title of a work. It must be an original work of authorship. I can almost always analyze and guide the legal issues surrounding technical musical questions because I have an intimate and academic knowledge about music. But, sometimes people come to me when it’s too late – once there has been an alleged infringement or when the parties are fighting for and bartering for rights after the fact, did not sort out the issues in the recording studio and did not spend the time nor the funds to take care of the business and legal part of creating the works. It’s especially difficult to determine rights once the work has been already created and money is involved. For that reason, I always suggest going to an entertainment or copyright lawyer for counseling on complicated issues of copyright, such as when there are multiple authors creating a “joint work” (songwriters, record producers, etc) or when there is an issue of sampling or creating what is called a derivative work, which is a work based on a previous work.. In the case of sampling or creating derivative works, permissions of the original authors are required. The rights holder, whether it’s a record company or publishing company or both, have the exclusive right to the work. However, there may be cases where the sampling or derivative works are actually free from the required permissions because they might qualify for what is called “fair use.” Ownership issues in copyrights can also be complicated when a client is forming a legal entity such as a corporation or a limited liability company which could commercially exploit the properties. Sometimes the legal entity owns the copyrights in a property and sometimes the individuals own the copyrights and the copyrights are transferred to the companies at a later date. Advice from a lawyer beforehand is critical.
When it comes to writing, publishing and ownership, is it a standard guideline that it’s 50% the lyrics and 50% the track?
PJ:
It depends. I believe you are referring to the conventional songwriting model. And, as far as I can tell, that model holds when the pieces can be separated. Every situation is different though and without rendering legal advice here, the most interesting is in the case of joint authorship of a song. The copyright statute provides that a joint work is a “work prepared by two or more authors with the intention that their contributions be merged into inseparable or interdependent parts of a unitary whole.” A joint work hinges on intent. Often that intent can be assumed or implied. However, even though there may have been an intent at the time of the creation of the work, that intent can be based on certain conditions and actually be nullified in a legal document. A lot of writers with publishing agreements allow for their contributory pieces to revert back if the song does not flesh out– so the intent to create a unitary whole is based on the condition of the song actually taking shape into something that can work as a song. That scenario is going to require a written document to attain in most cases since one typically infers from a joint work that there was the intent to create it. And writers’ credits are negotiable depending on the people involved and what happened in the writing. I’ve represented clients who have relinquished ownership to the copyrights in their songs to band members when the band members actually contributed nothing to the musical composing of the song. I’ve heard that major artists ask for writing credit when they’ve contributed nothing to the song itself except record it. I’ve also worked with other clients who have constructed a formula for each type of songwriting process, solo, with one guy, with the entire band, etc.
Publishing is a very intricate, potentially thorny area of music law and I would never advise that musicians deal with that topic without the advice and counsel of an experienced music attorney.
What are some of the common mistakes you see artists making around copyright issues?
PJ:
What constitutes “Fair use” is often misunderstood. It’s an exception under the copyright laws which allows for a pre-existing work to be used without the permission and without paying the original author. In music, sampling is the biggest potential problem area, particularly mashups. There is a legal question as to whether these are fair use since they might be considered “transformative.” Have the original works been transformed in a way that created a new fresh work? The rule of thumb is that if a musician is going to sample or borrow from an author to create a new work, he/she should ask a lawyer and seek the permission of the rights holder of the original work. The fair use issue is a raging topic in the copyright law today that requires dialogue from both sides.
From the legal standpoint of protecting creativity, I’m in favor of protecting the rights of our creators under the law. An entire generation has grown up in the Digital Age with the entitlement of free music not even understanding that it’s wrong to take the music without paying for it. They seem to think of it as a birthright because everybody is doing it. The youngest people don’t understand they’ve stolen something from somebody. It’s not necessarily that they intend to do something wrong; it seems they literally just don’t KNOW that it’s wrong. When I speak to young adults, undergrads and law students, I ask people why they’ve opted to pay for music instead of downloading it for free. The response is always the same: “I felt guilty stealing it and I knew I would have to pay for it someday.” Based on that response, it’s clear the public is grappling with a real moral question.
Reeducating our youth on the morality issue of copyright being an exclusive right to the creator might be a place to start. The French government created a program for French teenagers where the they qualify to receive permanent digital downloads through a government-sponsored program to reeducate the youth of France. Eventually, the consumer ends up paying for the music and the youth are taught that consuming music in this capacity is a bargained for exchange. The French appear to be succeeding with this program and they are a culture which values the rights of authors and are proactive in protecting those rights. Obviously, the French have been some of the greatest creators in the world so they have a vested interested and piracy is not as pervasive there than here. I think we need to try to do reach out in a similar manner to our children, with a stronger, positive image of doing the right thing rather than punishing the consumer in law suits. If we’re able to teach them that taking music without paying for it is like going to the Duane Reade and taking a tube of toothpaste, a toothbrush or a comb and walking out with it, and that eventually, when you have money, you need to pay for the stuff, it could turn the tide to the positive. I would like to see young kids engaging directly with their favorite artists and producers so that they know that these creators are counting on a livelihood based on making music.
You were telling me earlier about a piece your wrote for LexisNexis about the changes that have taken place in laws about digital downloads and what constitutes a sale vs. a license. How did that come about?
PJ:
I had the honor of launching the music industry law page for LexisNexis, a major publisher that serves the legal community. The first piece I wrote was about the recent case of F.B.T Productions vs. Aftermath Records, Interscope Records and Universal Music Group which has serious implications for the recorded music industry. I teach entertainment law at New England Law, Boston, and as part of my class, which is mainly based on music industry issues, I ask the students to research important topics in music. Last September, one student presented the ruling from the Federal Court of Appeals in the 9th Circuit (California) regarding Eminem’s first production company, F.B.T. Productions and Aftermath, which of course, is home to Dr. Dre, 50 Cent and others. The facts were that F.B.T. signed a furnishing company deal with Interscope in 1998 for Eminem’s recording services. The contract was then amended to include new terms, in this case, to include new royalty schemes in the digital age. When Universal started doing deals with iTunes for permanent downloads, another amendment was executed in 2004 but apparently, the language in that amendment did not exactly expressly clarify how a digital download would be treated. The amendment ratified, or left standing the original 2004 contractual language which included the same master licensing provision and the royalty on records sold provision. In 2006, F.B.T audited Aftermath/Interscope/Universal and they may have not liked the results, reviewing how much money they netted on permanent iTunes downloads and also ringtones and ringbacks licensed to cell phone network carriers. It appears that the F.B.T legal team creatively came up with an argument to challenge the definitions in the contractual language.
I’m not clear on exactly how they arrived at their analysis. After the audit, the lawyers probably reviewed the contracts with their clients who were complaining, “Hey, we’re taking a bath on all of these digital downloads. We’re being paid pennies in the old school model in the new school digital distro model. What can we do about it?” The F.B.T. lawyers probably then reviewed the Aftermath contracts and analyzed the contractual relationships with UMG’s digital distributors and realized that it had a licensing agreement with iTunes and the cell phone carriers So, they decided to challenge it. They might have gone through this line of thinking: “Wait a minute..why aren’t our digital downloads considered licenses also? Under our contract, masters “licensed” receives 50% of net revenue from those digital delivery distro contracts where as records sold is something different. These guys are currently paying out our digital downloads like records sold through normal retail channels. That language was reserved for retail in bricks and mortar and hard copy sales through the internet since those were agreements for the sale of goods and not licensing of digital delivery relationships. We’re losing a lot of money so let’s challenge the interpretation of the language and see how the court will rule” F.B.T lost at the Federal lower court but the federal appeals court was able to review the decision on a procedural technicality involving whether a contract can be considered ambiguous as a matter of law. The court of appeals looked at the contract and ruled that, “F.B.T stated that the contractual language was not ambiguous. It was a license.” So it moved to the next step and actually analyzed the “masters licensed” provision against the “records sold” provision in the contract, using the federal copyright statute provisions to clarify the ambiguities. The court stated “that pursuant to Federal Copyright Law, the terms ‘license’ and ‘sale’ have well-differentiated meanings. The sale of a work – so a record sale – is a transfer and a title of an individual copy. On the other hand, a license is where a copyright owner transfers a copy of the material and retains title; the owner limits the uses to which the material may be put and is compensated periodically. “The court then reviewed the relationship between iTunes and UMG, deeming those agreements were licensing deals. Since these licensing provisions for master recordings typically exist in every major label agreement, the court ruled that Aftermath should have paid F.B.T a licensing fee for digital downloads licensed to iTunes and others, not treating them like royalties on records sold. If this ruling is effectuated we’re talking about a lot of money owed as a license rather than on sold records.
So what happened next with this ruling? And what will happen if others follow suit?
PJ:
The lawyers for Aftermath appealed to the Supreme Court, because that’s as far as you can go. Once you go to the Federal Appellate Court, and the Federal Appellate Court says, “This is rule of law,” the final challenge is to the Supreme Court. In this case, the Supreme Court refused to hear the case. The refusal was on procedural grounds so that’s the end of that. F.B.T now becomes the rule of law. The Estate of Rick James showed up shortly thereafter and filed a class action against Universal. They are now waiting for a sufficient number of members to join the class since a class must be certified by the court in order for the case to proceed. I’m not an expert in class actions but if the case moves forward, it will be very interesting.
How are the labels reacting to this?
PJ:
I’m not sure, but after working inside a record company, I would imagine that the in-house legal departments are seriously reviewing their pre-internet agreements to determine where they’re vulnerable. They might be redrafting the forms of the contracts to comport with the court’s findings. Legal rulings are often the impetus behind the evolution of recording industry contractual terms. They might be also be considering a monetary settlement with any interested parties to head off any more legal battles in court and asking them to sign amendments to their pre-internet contracts in exchange. As a practitioner, I have to say that when we studied this case in my class, my jaw dropped. Most of us regard the master license provision in recording contracts as the payment structure for master use fees generated from film, TV, commercials and foreign distribution deals and not in connection with digital download distribution. I was shocked when the court interpreted that provision differently but again, thought it was a genius, logical argument since the deals for digital distribution are licenses and not sales.
Well, there is a huge difference between a 15% deal and suddenly now a 50% deal. It seems that if you’re a record label and going from giving away 15 cents to giving away 50 cents on a 99-cent download, that could bankrupt even a big label like Universal.
PJ:
That’s my contention. But, for the record, talk to anyone on the street about their perception of the record business. They would like to see these companies put out of business. I talk often to people in the community to gauge the pulse of the public. I live near a Whole Foods where a lot of young people work, and they play great music in there. People will ask me about my work and the common comments is, “Oh, well, the record companies don’t ever give the artists any money.” The great public misnomer is that we have this big, bad industry with a big, bad hatchet that shouldn’t be acting this way. The regular guy on the street thinks these record companies are diabolical and should be put to rest anyway, because they’re already screwing everyone. Having worked at one, you and I know both know how generous and supportive these companies have been and can be to artists, especially unknowns, and that by and large, the people who work on the inside are fans, they are passionate and care about the artists and their work and music.
I honestly find that to be on a case-by-case and person-by-person basis. But I think your point is, it’s not always an evil empire and it is certainly not one that is faceless. That part I find to be true.
PJ:
There will always be bad and good in any corporation. But, in the main, the people that you worked with and that I have worked with when there was a healthy industry were committed and caring. And when they were doing the work, they were as good as it gets. For the yin, there will always be the yang.
And how recent is the F.B.T. case?
PJ:
The Supreme Court refusal to hear the case happened in April and the Estate of Rick James also filed in April. I’m not a litigator, and I only represent one act that could be considered a legacy. In my article, I state that anybody working with the legacy and the heritage artists needs to be on notice of this ruling and that this is an opportunity to challenge the contractual language, settle or/and collect unpaid monies. There’s only been the one case filed by Rick James – so it’s really interesting.
And what advice would you give to new artists given your experience working in the music industry and in light of all the recent and ongoing developments?
PJ:
Digital Music News and Reverb Nation recently conducted a research study on whether emerging artists want to be signed to major labels, and 75% responded that they still want this. If this is your career goal, the old school format is still in play. It all starts with the song. Great songs are key. Having a unique, interesting singular style and image are key. Musicianship and having an interesting live show is key. Building your audience is the new addition to that formula. You have to tour any and all available markets. There are new models available to the musician today with social networking sites and YouTube. Just because we live in the digital ecology doesn’t mean that you throw out the conventional bricks-and-mortar tools. Use radio if you can – research has determined that consumers find new music primarily through terrestrial radio and word of mouth, i.e. your friends and people who run tastemaker blogs. Save your money to buy the right service: the best producers for your music who understand you and your work; the best marketers who understand you and your music; the right team who is dedicated to you. Don’t’ go to market before you’re ready; make everything as perfect as possible. Always connect with your fans and remember that they are the reason you are doing the work. The most successful artists realize this. But in the end great songs sell records, and we remember great artists for their great songs.
For more information about Patti and her work in the music industry as well as with U.S. Copyright Law, visit http://www.pattijones.com. This interview is intended as information for the general public. It should not be construed as legal advice and readers should not act upon information in this article without professional counsel. The contents of this article may be considered Attorney Advertising in some states.
