Jonathan Mann is a singer/songwriter who has been writing and recording one song per day since January 1, 2009 for his Song A Day project. For over 1,000 days, he has been posting a daily – usually humorous – song to YouTube that touches upon news and current events. A graduate of Bennington College in Vermont, Jonathan started playing guitar and writing songs when he was inspired by the music of Bob Dylan at age 12. Song A Day has earned him a great deal of press attention and brought him a number of interesting collaborative projects. He has appeared on The Rachel Maddow Show and has been commissioned to write songs for companies including Apple, TechCrunch, Dobly, ChaCha, Cisco, Microsoft, Groupon and AirBnB. Last spring, he used the crowdfunding site Kickstarter to raise $13,000, which funded his record Song A Day:  The Album.

 

 

I got to talk to Jonathan about how he started in music, techniques that help him continue to be a prolific artist and how other musicians can leverage YouTube and other online and offline tools to get their music heard, find opportunities for collaboration and grow their fan bases.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Jonathan. How did you become a musician?

 

JM:

 

I started playing guitar when I was 12, about 13-14 years ago. And, as happens when you’re just on the cusp of being a teenager, you get really intense about something. The thing I got really intense about was Bob Dylan. I had grown up listening to his music because my parents always listened to it. But, whatever happens at that point in a teenage mind, happened in mind. Something clicked, and it seems like overnight I started to really hear him for the first time. Basically, from that moment forward, I knew I wanted to write songs like him.

 

As soon as I started playing guitar, I started writing songs. And all those early songs sounded like a 12-year old trying to write songs like Bob Dylan, and not particularly well. But I really learned song structure from him. He has a way with words, to put it mildly. And his lyrics have this opaqueness; the meaning isn’t always obvious in some of my favorite songs of his. The words and the music together just create an overall feeling.

 

I continued to write songs and did a bunch of other things along the way. I went to college at a small liberal arts school in southern Vermont called Bennington College, which was a very hippy-dippy kind of place, and I really loved it. But I always found myself struggling with wanting to write more songs. People often describe what writer’s block feels like, and I realized that’s really what I was experiencing. What was so awful about writer’s block was that it wasn’t that I didn’t feel like creating and therefore wasn’t creating; it was that I had this creative impulse and wanted to be making music. But I would sit down and try to write, and I couldn’t. So, it wasn’t that the desire was there. The strong desire was actually what made it so awful when the songs just weren’t coming.

 

It’s all in hindsight of course that I recognize the problems. But, I started coming up with ways to force myself to write. One of the early techniques I came up with was in college. A friend of mine came up with a silly idea. We sat down one night with a little cassette recorder and had a couple beers. And we decided we were going to write 40 songs that night, and that each song would be only 40-seconds long. We had a stopwatch to time each other so we could make sure we didn’t go over the time limit. And we decided that wherever we were in the song after 40 seconds, we would stop and move onto the next song.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Did that help with writer’s block, and did anything real come out of those “40 in 40”?

 

JM:

 

Absolutely. Out of those 40 songs, what I noticed was that three or four of them ended up being the germs of really great songs. In fact, we fleshed out one or two of them, and they ended up being really big hits around campus – songs that people really responded to when we played them live. In my career so far with songwriting, the experience of that night has really stuck in my mind.

 

Also, in college, another friend of mine and I wrote a rock opera. Looking back, I can see clearly that writing this rock opera was really just a way to keep myself writing songs, because it was a way to not start from scratch. A lot of times you’re sitting down to write a song. And you might be starting with a feeling or something else, but mostly you’re just sitting there with a blank page.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And by that, do you mean that the rock opera gave you some kind of container or some constraints, so your choices became less infinite?

 

JM:

 

That’s exactly it. In this instance, we had written out a story together collaboratively about a race of aliens. The story had all these points and beats that needed songs. And so, it was the constraint of, “Here are the topics you need to write songs about. Now, go do it.” We both ended up writing about 20 songs apiece in a matter of weeks because we had this opera to focus on.

 

I did more of this rock opera writing in college. And it became really clear to me that all these exercises were simply constraints I was putting on myself in order to keep me writing songs and keep me happy. I realized I was happiest when I was creating a lot. And what better way to create a lot than to put the blinders on and get a bit myopic – focus in on something so songs would come more easily?

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I can imagine these techniques have continued to help you. Are you still doing the Song A Day project?

 

JM:

 

Yes. And I’ve created well over 1,000 songs now. As of today, I’m at 1,063.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And you’ve literally written a song and put it up on YouTube every day for 1,063 days?

 

JM:

 

That’s right. And Song A Day came later. Looking back on all the different things I’ve done, it’s almost funny to me that I didn’t hit upon it sooner, because it seems so obvious now. To tell you the truth, I thought about writing a song a day before. I got a flyer in late 2008 for this project called Fun-a-Day. And Fun-a-Day is an art project on the Internet and in the real world, where artists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are invited to create a piece of art for every day of January. And people do all kinds of things, from sculpture, to painting, to poems. And they also do more outlandish things, like performance art and any kind of offbeat art you can imagine. This project has been going on for eight years for the entire month of January. And then, at the end of January, everyone gets together in different regions throughout the world:  There’s a gathering in the Bay Area and one in Philadelphia, Berlin, etc. They have a big art show where everyone shows off their work in a gallery. Musicians can perform, and it’s really cool.

 

So, I got a flyer for this project, and it became the seed for Song A Day. At the end of January, I was having such a great time with it, that I didn’t see any reason to stop. I reached 100 songs, and felt I had to keep going. I realized that for me, it was the ideal way for me to keep myself creative.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And you mentioned a 70-20-10 rule:  70% of songs are so-so, 20% are not so hot and 10% are really good. Has that held true through the thousands of songs you’ve made?

 

JM:

 

I would say that’s definitely been the case. I think that holds true for most artists. It was something I noticed early on with the 40-second songs, the various rock opera projects and even the times I tried to put together albums. I would have a collection of songs, and that would be the ratio. Out of 10 songs, maybe one or two are stellar. Another few of them are filler. And the rest fall somewhere in between – not terrible and not great. And it seems that rule holds true for almost anything creative.

 

Of course there’s a caveat to that. It can also be really difficult to tell which songs fall into which category.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I was going to ask you that. There were probably songs that – had you not started the Song A Day project – would’ve never see the light of day. Have you been surprised by really positive reactions to songs you thought weren’t as good as others, or by lack of response to songs that you thought were really great?

 

JM:

 

I’ll answer that in two ways. In one way, I’ve definitely been really surprised. But one thing I’ve learned from doing this in public is, even a song that nine out of ten people dislike and that you yourself dislike as the creator, there’s going to be someone somewhere that responds to it really positively. I think that’s just human nature and shows the range of people’s tastes.

 

But, at the same time, I’m so wrapped up in it, and the songs go by so quickly. When I’m working on a song, it’s very rare that I think, “This is a crappy song.” As a songwriter, if you have that feeling, you go in another direction to make the song less crappy. So, I’d say that while you’re working on the thing, you’re never thinking about how bad it is.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Well, in my experience – and mind you, I’ve written considerably fewer songs than you – I would lay something down and revisit it the next day and think, “Boy, what was I thinking?” But you really don’t have the time to reflect on that, because it’s up and live.

 

JM:

 

Yeah. And I’ve had that experience and the reverse of that experience. I’ve laid something down and liked it and then the next day, not liked it. And I’ve also laid something down and really disliked it, then the next day have realized I’m really excited about it.
The other thing that’s really struck me with Song A Day is all the songs I’ve written that would’ve not seen the light of day had I not been doing this project. It’s a weird idea to me that I have all these songs that exist inside of me. And once or twice a week, I’ll write something that just comes out, and I think, “Where did that come from? I’m so glad I’m doing Song A Day, because now I have this song that I’m really into.” It only strengthens my resolve to keep doing it. If I stop, it just means there will be more songs I’ll never write.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I’m sure you have a lot of fellow musician friends. One of the most common complaints I get from musicians when I suggest that they create music, video and content as regularly as possible around their music is, people want everything to be really polished and clean. I can’t imagine in turning out the volume you have that all the performances have been completely tight. Still, you’ve had success with this project and feel good about it. Have you found that when you’re constantly generating material, people forget the songs that are not good and gravitate towards the ones that are? How has your experience been different from the experience of so many of these other musicians?

 

JM:

 

It’s hard for me to say. On the one hand, I would definitely say that I think material that is polished is great. But I think the idea that everything you put out needs to be polished is a little bit overrated. Like you said, people will ignore things they don’t like, and gravitate towards things they do like.

 

I’ve had a lot of success with Song A Day, namely through people finding me and asking me to come on TV shows or come play conferences. They’ve wanted to collaborate on projects with me just because of the fact that I’m out there all the time. But on the other hand, my overall audience has remained relatively small. And I think part of that may be due to over saturation.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Well, and it seems like it’s hard to say. Most people struggle to get an audience at all. The average musician out there has friends, family and occasionally a really keen supporter or two who brings out his/her friends and extended friends every once in a while. But most people don’t have an audience. The vast majority of musicians out there are aspiring and don’t have a real fan base. But you do.

 

JM:

 

That’s definitely very true. So, I guess if you put it into that perspective, what I’ve done and continue to do definitely works. I like to think that I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum from the end most musicians and artists are on. I don’t really have any perfectionism in me. In fact, I almost have none. I would rather do something quickly and get it to be as good as I can get it in that moment and put it out and see what happens rather than spend a lot of time on something. I tend to get tired of a song really quickly when I’m just focusing on it the way I feel a lot of my peers do. Perfectionism has so many strengths to it. But I also think my way has strengths as well. I think a perfectionist can learn from the way I create in the same way that I learn when I collaborate with friends who spend a lot more time on a song. I love that type of collaboration, because it is such a novelty for me and so different.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

You started songwriting and getting into music very young, so you’ve been at this a while. Are there some things you wish you’d known going in about online marketing, social media, creating music in general? What have you learned that you feel has made your process more efficient?

 

JM:

 

That’s an interesting question. And it’s almost difficult for me to answer, because I’m not sure I really have figured that game out completely.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Well, and I don’t know that anyone has it figured out. It’s all still the Wild West. But were there times you’ve looked back on where you were spinning your wheels, and you’ve thought, “Wow. If I met myself when I was 18, I’d tell myself …”?

 

JM:

 

To tell you the truth, I sometimes wish I had started doing the Song A Day earlier, and that I had hit on this process. On the other hand, things work out the way they do for a reason.

 

One thing I still think I could do better on, and I wish I were more adept at is simply collaborating. I think collaboration is key for musicians. And it’s a whole different ballgame than working by yourself. I’m definitely open to it. I have a lot of musician friends, and whenever we get together and collaborate, it’s always wonderful.

 

One of the biggest things I’ve observed regarding YouTube is that you have to collaborate. If you want to grow your audience, you find people that you like and that you respect from YouTube, and you reach out to them with a good idea, then collaborate with them and make something. That way, your audience gets to see them, and their audience gets to see you. I started making online video in 2005 right when YouTube started. And had I known that collaboration was one of the biggest tricks on that platform, maybe I would’ve done more of that.

 

Like you said, it’s still very much the Wild West. And I feel like my particular project is a long game.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I think any projects that are worth having are long term.

 

JM:

 

Right. And who knows what new things will come up?

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Ever since you and I first connected, I’ve wanted to ask you a question about time management. How do you manage to have a normal life and fit in doing a song and a video a day? I’m sure you’ve had to juggle things around. I know a lot of musicians who would love to be able to do a project like this. Do you have any advice for them about making time?

 

JM:

 

It’s definitely a challenge. I’ve been lucky. When I started the project, I was essentially unemployed. I had a small bit of freelance work. As I’ve been continuing the project, the freelance work has become denser. But the nature of freelancing gives me a lot of time to do this.

 

With any job I’ve had, I’ve always experienced in-between times. And often, the time spent getting to work and coming back from work – all other times like those – I’ve used for idea generation. Any time I’ve been working on songs, a lot of really great ideas have come out of those in-between times. And there are ways to utilize that time to maximum efficiency.

 

Otherwise, it’s really just about commitment. You just have to commit to doing it. I would also encourage people to do a song a day, even if just for the period of time they do Fun-a-Day. January is coming up. Just challenge yourself to do it for a month. Once you commit yourself to it, it just becomes part of your life. That’s what happened to me. My friends and family know that’s just what I do. So, a lot of times I’ll be around them and say, “Okay, I haven’t done my song yet, and it’s 9 p.m. I have to go do this.” Often, that’s all finding the time is. So often, all I have time to do is sit down with a guitar for 20 minutes and write down the first thing that comes to me.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And sometimes the songs that come out of even that little time are great.

 

JM:

 

Exactly. What you do when you do that is set yourself up to make great music. If you do that every day, just by sheer probability, something you make is going to be great.

 

To learn more about Jonathan and his music (or even to talk to him about collaboration), please visit the official Jonathan Mann website. If you want to check out some of the inspiration behind Jonathan’s Song A Day or get involved in a similar project yourself, take a look at Artclash Collective’s Fun-a-Day project.

 

Below is a video introduction to Jonathan and Song A Day:

 

Mathieu Santos is one of the founding members of and the bassist for the New York City-based orchestral-pop indie band Ra Ra Riot, signed to Barsuk Records. He and his fellow band members met in January 2006 during their last semester of college at Syracuse University. The band has since released several albums and EPs, toured throughout the country and has had their songs placed in film and television. Ra Ra Riot’s album The Orchard was nominated for an Independent Music Award in January, 2011. In August, Mat released his first solo album, Massachusetts 2010.

 

I recently spoke with Mat about how Ra Ra Riot came to be, what he has learned about touring and building a band and some advice he has for artists that want to make music their career.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, Mat. How did you get started with Ra Ra Riot?

 

MS:

 

We all met at Syracuse University and officially formed in January, 2006. None of us knew each other before the band started. Milo, our guitarist, was the link between everyone; he brought us all together. We all met for the first time at our first practice.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And it just clicked.

 

MS:

 

Yeah. Originally, it was just supposed to be something to do during our last semester at school – a fun thing to do for a few months. It did end up being so much fun, and we were able to build up a little bit of a following within the campus community. So, we decided to keep it going in the summer and book our first tour.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

It’s interesting:  As a kid, I played in a band at NYU, and after college, I was met with the very harsh reality of how much harder it is once you can’t knock on everyone’s door in your dorm room, and when you no longer have that centralized mechanism of a campus. How did you go about booking a tour when you hadn’t toured previously?

 

MS:

 

We were pretty lucky, because right from the very beginning we had a really great manager, Josh, who was a really good friend of ours at Syracuse. He was actually living in the house that we were living in, so he just became our manager by default. He was a management major at Syracuse and was also interning for Sony Records at the time. He was already pretty savvy about the music industry, as was Rebecca, our violin player, because she was a music industry major. We were fortunate enough to have friends in our circle who knew a little bit about what they were doing.

 

The first tour we booked was pretty bare bones – a lot of small clubs in the Northeast. There were eight shows over a two-week span. It wasn’t anything too grand, but it was enough to get a taste for it and get a little something going. It was nice because having left school, everyone knew someone in every city we played in. We had at least a small crowd come out.

 

Musician Coaching:

So it was really that simple:  “Who do we know in this town? Whose couch can we crash on here, and how can we get people out?”

 

MS:

 

Exactly. It was a lot of fun. We rented an old police van and just did it. We didn’t really know what we were doing. But it went okay. And it was fun enough for us to want to try to do it again on a little bit bigger scale.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Obviously, a lot of bands aren’t lucky enough to have a guy like Josh, who I’ve talked to on and off since I saw you guys play at a Ben Sherman – of all places – in 2006. A lot of people don’t get that lucky to have somebody with a lot of practical experience who is really dedicated and just says, “Come hell or high water, money be damned, I’m going to manage that band.” From your perspective, what did you do to grow your band? Which elements and techniques wound up being the most effective for growing a fan base?

 

MS:

 

The time we were starting out was when Myspace had reached its pinnacle as an influential tool for bands. So, that helped a lot. Working with Josh was great for everyone, because we couldn’t have gone as far as we did without him. And he probably couldn’t have done as much without a client like us. It worked out perfectly that it was the first band he managed and the first real band we had played in. It was a great symbiotic environment. And it still is today.

 

In general, the internet was a major help. And Josh is good at making connections. The first thing that really helped us get to the next level was CMJ, which we played the first year we were together, in the Fall of 2006. By then, we had done a bunch of really small tours. And then CMJ worked really well for us. We got a lot of positive coverage on a lot of blogs and a few other publications too as a result.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Did you have a publicist at that time, or was that all Josh just making cold calls?

 

MS:

 

At that time, I honestly don’t remember. But it was probably mostly just Josh. I think it was at that CMJ that we met our lawyer, our booking agent and our first publicist. Up until then, we were still doing everything ourselves.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I realize everyone has their own perspective based on their unique life experiences and path in the music business. But you weren’t a band for very long before you had your first booking agent come on board.

 

MS:

 

It happened within about the first eight months.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

There are so many bands that do well in a lot of different markets and can’t get anyone to take a risk on them. Talent aside, what do you think you guys were doing right that made an agent jump on board?

 

MS:

 

When we first formed at Syracuse we formed primarily to be a house party band, which was all that was going on at school. There were a couple clubs on campus, but mostly we played house parties. Our whole performance was tailored to that environment, so there was a lot of uninhibited energy and a lot of interaction with the crowd. We were just having a lot of fun, and our whole idea was just to keep doing it as long as that was still the case. I think a lot of people related to that when they saw us play. It was a fun, un-self-conscious, energetic thing that was different from what a lot of people were doing at the time.

 

We were really nervous coming into CMJ, because it was our first big thing, and we knew it was also a very industry-focused event. But we tried not to think about it too much and just did what we did. We got so much positive feedback from it, that we knew we were going in a good direction.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And it was right around that time that you started to have labels, publishers and people sniffing around. How would you recommend that people starting out get that attention and then how should they deal with it?

 

MS:

 

It was a little confusing, a little scary. It takes a while to gauge where people are coming from. But it was also very exciting, especially since we didn’t expect to be playing together beyond just one semester. Then, we did a couple tours, and CMJ came. And it was the first time we started considering the possibility of doing the band as a full-time gig. We thought, “Wow, there’s really interest. We can actually make the leap from the college environment to touring the country.” It was just a matter of listening the feedback of everyone that was interested in working with us. A lot of it was just feeling everyone out and trying to pick the people who we thought wanted to work with us for the right reasons. That idea has always been really important to us.

 

It was a little daunting, but we were all in it together. It was the first time any of us had ever experienced anything like it, so it was a galvanizing thing, and we were just really excited to take the next step.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

It seems almost like it’s similar to all of a sudden waking up one morning and looking like a Playboy model. Suddenly, everyone wants something from you. It’s very strange. I’ve seen people weather that not so gracefully. But it seems like things have worked out for you.

 

You mentioned on the Uncensored Interview website that surviving in the music business and doing the DIY thing was very different than what you’d imagined. What are the big, key things you’d want to tell yourself if you were starting over?

 

MS:

 

That’s an interesting question. For us, because every step of the way has been a pleasant surprise, I think we’ve always just been excited that whatever is happening is happening. In retrospect, when we look back at our first tour and how bad the conditions were – sleeping in rest stops every other night, etc. – it’s surprising, because at the time it was really exciting. I think we’ve been really cautious the whole time to always trust our gut with the people we work with. That’s definitely served us well.

 

At the beginning we were definitely a bit naïve in terms of trusting people. On one of our first tours, we had a horrible incident in Montreal. Our van was broken into, and everyone’s laptops, phones and cameras were stolen. It was a situation where we left the van alone for maybe ten minutes. But we weren’t that careful. Now we’re a bit too paranoid for our own good. But it’s better to be prepared than to get ripped off like that. There’s no worse feeling than being really far away from home, having everything taken and just feeling lost. A van with a trailer is a pretty easy target.

 

I can’t think of anything else off the top of my head that I would do differently. Every step has been such a big learning process for us. We knew nothing about touring the first tour we went on and we knew nothing about recording the first time we went into the studio. But we’ve learned all these things over the years.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I know that questions about your experiences become difficult questions to answer after a while, not because the answers are difficult but because it becomes harder and harder to divorce yourself from the experiences as time progresses. What are some small, practical things you’ve learned about touring?

 

MS:

 

Touring is always tough, because a complete lifestyle change can happen in as little as a day. One day, you’re at home and comfortable; the next day, you’re in a van for the next four-and-a-half weeks. It usually takes a while to adjust. The two-week mark is always the hump that’s the hardest to get over. I think we’ve all learned to take touring day by day and not get overwhelmed by the scale of it. If you focus just on what you have to do that day, it makes everything pretty easy to get through. It’s all about finding a system that works for you.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

You guys are all still pretty young. But are there things you’ve found you have to be careful of in regards to your health while on tour?

 

MS:

 

Lately, a lot of us have been finding more time to go for a run or do other things like that while we’re on tour. Taking out time to do that is really important. You also need alone time and time to reset and take care of your body after you’ve been sitting in a van all day.

 

We also do try to eat well. It’s a little difficult to do, but if you can find a Whole Foods every day, it makes a big difference. Actually, that’s one of the most important things:  Nothing can boost morale more than a good meal. Sometimes it gets hard to find places in the middle of nowhere, but it’s totally worth it if you can make the effort to find good food.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Do you have any additional advice for artists just starting out that want to make music a career?

 

MS:

 

Our main guiding motto has always been, “Let’s have fun, and let’s keep doing it as long as we’re still having fun.” We’ve had times in the past where we’ve stopped to reconsider and have asked ourselves, “Do we still want to do this? Are we still having fun?” And we have always decided that yes, we are. We don’t want to be doing anything else. I would tell other musicians, “Just do what feels right. Trust your gut and your instincts.”

 

Building a good team is also really important. People will tell you a lot of things and make a lot of promises. But you really have to get a feel for the people you work with. And you have to know they’re in it for the right reasons and that they care about your music and your career. It’s very important to be close to the people you work with.

 

But really, as long as you’re having fun, everything else will fall into place.

 

To learn more about Mathieu Santos, visit the Ra Ra Riot website and  check out his solo album Massachusetts 2010. You can watch the interview the band did for Uncensored Interview below.

 

Marianne Bennett is the founder of Marianne Bennett Productions and Element Music, two high-end music event companies that book entertainment for private events. She got her start in the music industry in  the 1980s as a rock/pop singer/songwriter, performing in venues throughout New York City such as The Bitter End, Kenny’s Castaways, The Limelight and CBGBs. She first got involved in the music events industry when she worked as a wedding and private events vocalist for hire. Eventually, she combined her love of performing with her passion for the business side of music and decided to start her own music event company.

 

 

Recently, I got to talk to Marianne about her experience in the industry, how artists can break into the private events space and why passion and dedication are critical to a successful career in the music business.      

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Marianne. How did you get started in music?

 

MB:

 

I started as a songwriter and a performer in an original rock/pop band playing all the downtown New York City clubs, like The Bitter End, Kenny’s Castaways, The Limelight, CBGBs, etc. I just was always performing all the time and had a great love for songwriting and singing.

 

Right after college, I decided to pursue my artist career. At that time, which was in the 1980s, the music business was very different from how it is now. Obviously we didn’t have all the social networking we have now or the internet. So the way artists carved out their own path was to constantly approach label people, play as often as possible, try to get their demo tapes in the right hands at the right time with the right people, etc. It was a very different time. I played frequently in the clubs and tried to meet and greet whoever I could. Eventually I got hired at CBS Records, which is now Sony. I was trying to get myself in front of whatever record executives I could so I could have people around to submit my demo tapes to. It was a very exciting time, but very different from the way things are now. I actually think this is a great time for artists, because there are so many possibilities, and so many different ways to get yourself exposed and get people to see who you are.

 

Over the years – after pursuing my artist career and realizing I was meant for other things in music – I slowly started getting into the event industry and producing music events for social occasions, everything ranging from corporate events, weddings, fashion release parties, opening night galas for Broadway shows, etc. It’s been a great journey and a lot of fun. Now I run Element Music, which is a high-end music events company. We have people that travel throughout the world and the U.S. But primarily, most of our work is in New York.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I get asked all the time by artists, “How do I get my band hired to play covers at corporate events, weddings and other similar places?” How did you make the transition between being an artist and getting corporate gigs?

 

MB:

 

Like many things in life, this happened by chance. When you’re an up-and-coming artist trying to get yourself out there, you still have to pay your bills. I started doing wedding work as a vocalist to pay my rent. And as I got more entrenched in that business, I found it really interesting how every weekend I found myself working with unbelievably talented people. There were so many people like me that were original artists and needed to pay their rent. I found it to be a really great time to get to know a lot of musicians, songwriters, etc. So, how I really transitioned was through that need to put food on the table,  get the rent paid, etc. But it ended up being something I really enjoyed. I had also always enjoyed the business side of music. And in the event industry, you really have to have the ability to deal with all different types of people and their needs, and that happens to be something I’m good at.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Having access to musicians certainly seems like the easy side of the equation. But how did you go about putting together the right marketing materials? Also, a lot of people try to put together event companies and have live music for hire and fail dismally. What is it about your corporate approach that is different from the approach of the other people that don’t make it?

 

MB:

 

I think really it’s about dedicating yourself to what you’re doing and having a passion and love for what you’re doing. If you have those elements, the people you work with will pick up on that. I feel really strongly that anyone who is an artist, whether  a songwriter or a person that runs an event company like myself – if you are anyone who has something that involves your passion, you really love what you do and know how to present it to other people in your marketing tools. Truthfully, I never had really fancy marketing tools; I just had a great love for what I was doing and a great belief in myself. I portrayed that on a day-to-day basis with all the people I would meet in my travels as a musician. I find that all the musicians I’ve known over the years that have had great success in their own careers – even if it’s in different legs of the music industry – all have this one thing in common:  A dedication to working hard every day at what you do, and having the ability to share that with people you meet all the time. I can’t say I had any fancy marketing tools in the beginning, because in the beginning there was lack of cash flow, so I could only work with what I had.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I am surrounded by musicians who are having the damndest time getting gigs. And it sounds like both on the artist side and on the corporate side, you’re not even bringing that topic up, because it sounds like it has never been a big struggle for you; it always came naturally to you. How is it that you found yourself always playing, and what advice would you give for someone that wants to always find ways to play?

 

MB:

 

You have to grab every opportunity. If you’re a vocalist – and I tell this to all the singers that work for me – whatever your craft is, you have to take every opportunity you have. The opportunity might be singing for free in the library, but you need to get heard wherever you can and wherever there is an audience. The gig might be paid or unpaid, but it’s about honing in on your craft and perfecting your craft. If you’re a great performer and a great entertainer, people are going to be attracted to you and offer you work. It’s that simple. If you have something that is engaging and keeps people interested, people will offer you work. I’ve always followed that principle throughout my career.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

So, it’s honestly just about playing as much as possible and being known, using one gig at a time to meet people. And it sounds like that’s what enabled you to found this corporate company.

 

MB:

 

Yes. In the earlier stages of my career, anytime anyone had an opportunity for me, I grabbed it, no matter what it was. You never know who is listening to you or who is in the room. I have a great story about that. Years ago, I performed at an event. It was at a really cheesy catering venue out on Long Island. And there happened to be someone at that event that thought what I did was great, and he offered me a job. You never know who is out there. It’s a willingness to get yourself out there and be dedicated to it all the time. I was just reading about an artist yesterday that said the same thing. She said it was just about doing it night and day. She gets up in the morning and does the things she needs to do just to pay for her life. While she’s out – whether it’s at her job or just when she’s out for coffee – she’s always talking about what she does with other people and all that is involved in what she does. It’s about networking all the time and constantly talking up what you do. Personally, I think it’s a non-stop process.  And then people pick up on it. I wish I could say there was some magic answer, but there’s not. It’s just an intuitiveness and a belief.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I agree with you. I don’t think there is a magic pill. If you met yourself now when you were just starting out, is there any advice you would give yourself that you think would’ve helped you out a great deal?

 

MB:

 

Yes. Throughout my own career, there are many times I see opportunities that I didn’t recognize. When I look back at my accomplishments, I’m pleased with what I’ve done. But I definitely would’ve changed how I handled certain opportunities. I think if you have an opportunity, it’s important to jump on it right away, and not  even wait a few days to get back to somebody or to give a bio or your photos out. You really have to be on top of your emailing. Of course, when I started, it was about phone calls and tapes and sticking things in the mail and getting your photo out. That’s one thing I wish I’d done better.

 

To learn more about Marianne Bennett and her work, you can visit the Marianne Bennett Productions and Elements Music websites. You can also follow her on Twitter as MBennettMusic.

Robert Smith is a seasoned producer, engineer and mixer who runs Defy Recordings in New York City. A musician and avid record collector since the age of 11, Robert got his start in the music industry when he moved from his home town in upstate New York to New York City in 1986 and immediately threw himself into the studio. He got his professional start at Green Street Recording studio – known in the 1980s as the home base for Def Jam Records – and had the opportunity to work frequently with Jam-Master Jay and Run DMC as well as with Public enemy and R&B legend Allison Williams. From there, he went onto work at the Hit Factory and also Power Station Studios. During that time, he made records with an array of artists across many genres, including Michael Jackson, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder, David Bowie, David Sandborn and Luther Vandross. Robert also helped start and grow a multi-media company where he worked on post production on film scores and major commercials with clients such as Reebok, Coca-Cola, Oil of Olay and Proctor and Gamble. Eventually, he decided to return to his love for music and focus on Defy Recordings.

 

 

Recently, I talked to Robert about his experience in the music business, some advice he has for folks that want to get involved on the production side and why he feels persistence and fearlessness are the keys to success for anyone that wants to achieve real career longevity.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Robert. How did you come to be an engineer and producer?

 

RS:

 

I moved to New York City from upstate New York in 1986. I’ve been a huge record collector since I was about 11-years old. I’ve never done anything else but immerse myself in music since then. I’ve been very lucky to have been at the right place at the right time. I began working at many studios around town starting in the late 1980s, and it just grew and grew, and here I am, still doing it.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Who are some of the people you’ve worked with during the course of your career?

 

RS:

 

One of the first people I worked a lot with was Jam-Master Jay of Run DMC. The first studio I worked with was Green Street Recording, and it was pretty much the unofficial home base of Def Jam Records. For the first year of my career I was working in the same studio as Run DMC and Public Enemy. Def Jam also had a lot of R&B stuff like Allison Williams, Orange Juice Jones, who were keeping us really busy. My first recording session was 24-hours long. And I thought, “How am I going to do this?” But it was amazing.

 

Then I got a job at the Hit Factory. And that meant working with artists like Michael Jackson, Billy Joel, Stevie Wonder and Mariah Carey. I worked a lot with her right before she got her record deal. At the time, everyone was at that place.

 

From there, I went to the Power Station where I worked with David Bowie, David Sandborn and Luther Vandross. The only people I didn’t get chance to work directly with who were recording there were Madonna and Bruce Springsteen, though I did talk about fish with Springsteen once when we were looking at a fish tank. That’s about as close as I got to it.

 

I went freelance from there. And I tried something a little different by starting a multi-media company with two partners. We did post production on film scores and big commercials for advertising. Our clients were Reebok, Coca Cola, Oil of Olay and Proctor and Gamble. We did a lot  of movies, like the movie Waitress with Keri Russell, which did really well. I did that for about five years and then decided to go out on my own again. We were fortunate because our multi-media company got big pretty quickly. By the time I left, we had 20 employees and two floors of a building. But I wasn’t really interested in meetings; I was still all about the music. So, I decided to re-focus on that side of it and continue what I really love to do. And I am fortunate to still be doing it in this day and age.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

It sounds like you didn’t spend much time as a performing musician. You just got right behind the board.

 

RS:

 

Yes. Before I moved to the city, I played bass for a while in a band and I was also a DJ. But I liked the tech side of it and was definitely drawn to that side of the glass pretty quickly. It’s not like I moved to the city and played with bands; I moved right into the studio, and that was pretty much it.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

And you’ve been at it from 1986, to 2011. Are you doing more production or engineering these days?

 

RS:

 

I’m probably doing more engineering and mixing. I produce on average about five albums per year. But I’m working every day on mixing, mastering and engineering.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

You’ve been around for 25 years making records. I’m sure a vast number of the people you started working alongside are no longer in the business. What did you do that other people didn’t?

 

RS:

 

Many have been long gone. It’s an insane business. I guess you could call it a business with an incredibly bad business model. What I mean by that is that if you’re looking to have a career, have a family, buy a house, go on vacation and have a 401K, this is not the way to do it.

 

I get students all the time asking me what it’s like. I remember an email I got from a high school student in Arizona with what looked like a standard-issue questionnaire in it including questions like, “How many hours do you work per week?” And I thought, “I don’t know … Zero, to 100?” Those questions are more for someone that works in a bank. This has never really been a job. It’s way more of a “life” than your standard-issue career where you look forward to your retirement. For me, it’s just been about persistence. And also, I wouldn’t know how to do anything else. I’ve been doing this for so long that it’s what I do and who I am.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Let me reverse the question. What were some of the traits of the guys that didn’t make it?

 

RS:

 

I don’t know why, but that’s a tougher question than I might have thought it would be. With those guys, a lot of it had to do with family stuff. Once you get married and have kids, it’s a little harder to justify being up until four or five in the morning every night, getting home when it’s sunny out and then having to come back again early evening. It’s an “all in” thing. If you really want to do it, you need to really immerse yourself in it. The people that didn’t hang in always treated it like a job or a part-time gig. They were around for four or five years, but then they just got out. If you want something normal and stable, this isn’t the job for you.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Let’s talk about the musician side of things. Because of your long list of credits, you must get approached often by relatively unknown bands. Other than somebody that can string together a good handful of sentences and has a high-quality recording – which is of course the X-Factor – are there things people should do to prepare before reaching out to you that will make their project more desirable?

 

RS:

Sure. The biggest thing I miss from the major label days is the filtering process. If you were signed to Columbia in 1990 and in front of me in the studio, it meant you had passed the test; you had dealt with the A&R guys, the managers and had recorded the demos. By the time you got to me, you could generally write a song and sing, because back then we couldn’t fix your performances as much as we can now. I knew you were at a certain quality level, because no one would’ve invested that kind of money in you as an artist unless they thought they could get it back. I miss that side of it, because there are so many artists I get approached by now that don’t know that process. There is an unprofessional side to it now, which means there is a lot of grooming I end up having to do that I didn’t have  to do before because a lot of it had already been taken care of:  how to sing in tune; how to really play an instrument and all those things you would do if playing music your job. When someone hasn’t had that kind of experience, I have to groom them towards that, which can be a lot of extra work.

 

Musician Coaching:

That makes it sound like your job description has shifted and now includes making up for people’s lack of shedding time and education.

 

RS:

 

Completely. It seems like part of my job now is to have a chat first and say, “Here’s what we’re going to do today.” There’s always some kind of story involved. The benefit of my experience is that I’ve seen just about everything. So, when someone comes in and we’re having a terrible time, I’m able to steer it some way; I can apply an antidote. I think that’s why I’ve been really busy too, because I’ve been fortunate to come up in the days of tape, and I’ve been around some really classic records and know how to get the right sound because I was there at the beginning. In that sense, it’s been great. I’m still young enough that I can relate to younger artists. But I’ve been around enough that I know how to edit tape and what people talk about when they are thinking about the “golden days” of analog and a certain sound.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Along those lines, for people wanting to perfect their craft behind the glass, there are a lot less opportunities like the ones both of us had coming up. There are a lot less studios in business. What advice would you give to somebody that has a pirated copy of Pro-Tools and are trying to figure this out on their own? How can they compete with an education with the guys out there that knew analog?

 

RS:

 

The advice I always give is, “Find a mentor.” I was really fortunate to have learned from all the best people on the planet. The guy who was a mentor for me for the first two years was buddies with Queen and was one of the engineers on “Bohemian Rhapsody.” He shoved me into this. It’s that whole idea of throwing people into the deep end and seeing if they can swim or not.

 

I have an example. A kid from Texas wrote me, and she wanted to come to New York and be a producer. She was 19, and I said, “You probably shouldn’t do that right now, because all you’re going to do is come here, clean toilets and try to find a job. You’ll barely be able to eat and pay your rent.” And she had never been in a studio. I said, “What you should do is stay in your town, find somebody that owns a studio and learn everything you can from them. If you don’t do that, you’re going to be up against kids that have come here from all over the world and have done that. You’re going to be behind right from the start.” So, I advised her to master it in her home town by learning from someone with a studio and learning to be better than they are. Then, she can come to New York with a leg up as opposed to with no clue at all. And no one had ever told her that.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

I’m continually surprised by how often people just don’t get any sound advice at all.

 

Getting to know musicians in the studio as you have for days at a time, what advice would you give artists about relationships with management and labels? Can you talk about any pitfalls to avoid for aspiring musicians and musicians just coming up?

 

RS:

 

It’s tricky. It seems like now everyone that used to be in the music business before is now just a consultant. Because the money is now in those types of positions, we’ve all had to figure out ways to use our experience to still get some kind of income and still do what we do. There are those guys that still call themselves managers, but maybe they haven’t really managed. You just have to be really careful and not be too anxious to sign your life away. Throughout the history of music there are stories of people signing contracts that don’t know what they’re doing. And the next thing they know, they’ve signed away everything. It’s been like that from way back in the day and continues to be that way today. An artist will actually have success and then realize they don’t actually own a song or will just get a couple thousand dollars.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

Yes. Jacob Slichter of Semisonic wrote a book, So You Wanna Be a Rock & Roll Star, and he described the traditional relationship between label and artist as “rock & roll sharecropping.” And he was right.

 

RS:

 

Yeah. There were stories back in the day where the guy would find an artist and give him a couple hundred dollars and a Cadillac. And the artist thought, “Wow, I’m a pop star now.” Little did he know he wasn’t going to see a nickel of record sales that ended up sometimes totaling millions and millions of dollars. You have to be really careful of being that make promises and say, “I can make this, this and this happen.”

 

I had a friend who actually got onto The Voice, and right before she was going to get on a plane to go to L.A. for six weeks, she got a contract – and thankfully she read the fine print – that said that whether she won or lost, this company would own everything she did for seven years.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

That’s the Viacom and American Idol model.

 

RS:

 

She actually has had some deals in the past and already had stuff going on, so she decided not to do it. I think if you have nothing going on, you should go for it. But you just have to be really careful and read contracts carefully as opposed to just signing because you’re so anxious to become a pop star. We’ve also heard the stories about someone signing an artist and then putting that person in a box for two years while they figure out what to do with the person. Then all the other interest goes away because the artist is already signed.

 

Musician Coaching:

 

It’s pretty amazing what they’ll do. Atlantic was known for this. They would sign an artist from the Southeast and do what I call the “shiny shirt treatment.” The band would get signed and celebrate. Then they would stop doing everything that made them interesting to the label in the first place, and the publicist would say, “You know, you would look better in shiny shirts.” They would give everyone a shiny shirt and take new photos, and then nothing would ever happen. It’s very sad.

 

Do you have any parting words of advice?

 

RS:

 

The people that make it in this industry don’t have any choice. It’s built into them, and they are just so talented that it can’t be denied. In the end, it really depends on how badly you want it. If you just want to come into the studio and do it for a couple years, it’s not going to work. I’ve never seen anybody just dabble and find success. The ones who have made it are “all in” from the very beginning. You don’t have a choice. It is what you’re meant to do.

 

There is one word describes all the people I’ve seen that have had success:  fearlessness. The fearless people always do well. The ones that question and pause are the ones who are still sitting and wondering what happened or asking, “Why isn’t anything happening?”

 

To learn more about Robert Smith and the work he does, please visit the Defy Recordings website.

Patti Jones, Esq. is an entertainment lawyer based in Boston, MA. She is a classically trained musician with degrees in Music and French from Ripon College, Ripon, Wisconsin, a Masters degree in Music from the Conservatory, University of Missouri, Kansas City, studies in French and Music at the Sorbonne, University of Paris, France and studies at the Berklee College of Music in Boston. She began her career teaching vocal/choral music and directing musical theatre in grades K-12. When she left teaching, she embarked on a biography project on the legendary jazz/blues musician Mose Allison, (One Man’s Blues: the Life and Music of Mose Allison, Quartet Books, London), who had been the topic of her Master’s thesis. She talked to various artists, a process which eventually inspired her to work in entertainment law. During the course of her career, she has worked with many major-label bands, including Orbit (A&M), The Red Telephone (Warner Bros.) and The Urge (Sony/Epic/Immortal). She is responsible for launching the music industry law page for the legal industry publication LexisNexis, is co-chair of the New England chapter of the Copyright Society of the USA, a member of the International Entertainment Lawyers Association, a contributor to the prestigious Grove Dictionary of American Music and also teaches Entertainment Law at New England Law/Boston.

I recently had the chance to sit down with Patti and talk about how she made her way to the music industry, some recent groundbreaking events in music Copyright Law and how new artists can protect their creative property and build careers in the Digital Age.

 

Musician Coaching:

Thanks for taking the time to talk to me, Patti. First of all, how did you get into the music business, and what inspired you to start your own entertainment and music attorney practice?

 

PJ:

I was a committed music educator before I went to law school and had never intended to become a lawyer. I’m originally from Boston, but my work as a choral/vocal/musical theatre director took me both to Kansas City, MO and New Orleans.

 

When I decided to leave teaching and classical singing, I had to take a step back and figure out what to do next. I never envisioned that I would combine law with music. The topic of my Master’s thesis was the music of Mose Allison, the famous jazz/blues musician, who is now my client. As his biographer, through my interviews, I had the opportunity to meet legendary figures in the music industry such as the late Atlantic Records president, Ahmet Ertegun, EMI/Blue Note president Bruce Lundvall, and the late Tom Dowd, the famous recording engineer. I also interviewed many artists, mostly from the British invasion. On one interview, I traveled to Chicago to interview Pete Townshend as a first-year law student. He was the one that told me to become a music lawyer. I hadn’t even started the tape and said, “I’m a first-year law student,” and he replied, “Well, you know music really well, why don’t you help us? You should become a music lawyer.”  I look at that moment as the turning point where I was actually channeled into the next phase of my life.

 

Not long after the Townsend interview, a job working for a law office with an attorney who had worked for New Kids on the Block fell down from the sky. During law school, I had a summer internship working in the PolyGram Records Legal Department in New York, reviewing recording, music publishing and movie soundtrack contracts and working on other projects for the Legal and Business Affairs Departments. In that environment, I was able to learn the record business culture from a legal as well as A&R perspective and saw firsthand the passion as well as the pitfalls and politics of that business. Apart from these experiences, there were hardly any entertainment law courses when I was in law school so I took courses in Copyright and Trademark, also called Intellectual Property, to round out my background. When I graduated from law school, there was a major economic recession. I interviewed with law firms and record companies, and had great recommendations and connections, but there were no jobs in either New York or L.A. The last lawyer who interviewed me said, “Go back to Boston. Go home and sign bands, and then everyone will know who you are, and everybody will want to hire you.” I took his advice. .. I got to know my community musically, the Boston music scene and spent time getting to know what was happening at that time in popular music.  I spent a lot of time in the clubs talking with and listening to the bands, getting to know the owners, the bookers, the radio people, the scenesters in Boston and then travelled in other cities in New England, like Portland, Providence, and Burlington, VT As a classical musician, I had only performed in concert halls, churches, and although I had attended a few rock concerts growing up, the only real clubs I had really ever gone to were jazz venues. Teaching middle and high school gave me another edge in learning about the music I was hearing because I had learned to listen to “popular” music from the perspective of a 15-year old boy. I taught at an all boys prep school in Kansas City. In fact, Jeff Sosnow, who is in A&R at Interscope and who signed All American Rejects was one of the students there.

 

Using that part of my skill sets in listening to the music in our local clubs and knowing what I did about the record guys, I got a sense of what might appeal to their audiences. I began representing artists and going to the A&R community to pitch the music in person as well as just meet people to form a network. I would go down to New York for a day and meet anyone who would agree to a talk to me. I would attend music conferences, and then fly to LA to meet people there.  I also began writing critiques in a couple of national and local tip sheets about Boston music. At the time, there were lots of artists getting signed from Boston, the clubs were full, the radio stations were playing local music and adding it to the regular rotation playlist and record people were flying up to hear music every week. Two years after I hung my shingle as a lawyer, I was lucky enough to sign my first artist in a major label bidding war. The work for me has always been about kids and music, realizing the potential of those who entrust me with their creative works, and then connecting their creations to the right resources in my network.

 

Musician Coaching:

What is your practice like today?

 

PJ:

Because of the changes in the record industry that have had an impact on all areas of the music business, I now work in other areas of entertainment in addition to my music practice. My office represents everyone from literary authors to television show creators and independent filmmakers. I work with several children’s book authors and  I also work with tech clients. Much of my practice is in intellectual property, protecting and defending the copyrights and trademarks of my clients. For the last year, I’ve served as co-chair the New England Chapter of the Copyright Society of the USA, bringing various speakers to the Boston area to discuss developments in the copyright area of the law. As a fierce advocate and defender of creators’ rights, I never turn down an opportunity to speak or teach on this issue.  My music clients are serious about a career in music and that means that they are equally serious about supporting the continued protection of their exclusive rights to their works.

 

Musician Coaching:

What advice do you have for artists in this arena?  What should musicians do to protect their creative work?

 

PJ:

There are two fundamental concepts in protecting intellectual properties for musicians. One is in copyright, where registering your composition/song, sound recordings, videos, and any other type of creative property, such as artwork, with the United States Library of Congress for the copyright in your work(s) helps to protect your rights. The other is in trademark or service marks, which identify the goods sold and the performing services rendered. Registering band names and logos as service marks and any goods as trademarks on the federal register with the United States Patent and Trademark Office is also advisable.

 

Copyright registration is relatively inexpensive. It’s $35 to file on line and depending on the property and authors, the application form is not too complicated. However, the federal applications for service marks or trademarks with respect to goods and services are best served using the counseling of lawyers. It can be a very tricky process and if not executed properly will cost more in time and money to repair and reprocess. The trademark examiners working for the USPTO are attorneys and trademark is an area of particular administrative law. Trademark lawyers are experts and the area of entertainment is even more specialized within the area of trademark law. I never advise musicians to go it alone on the trademark issue.

 

Copyright relates to original creations and is the legal cornerstone for all of my clients.  A copyright is the exclusive “right” to make copies and is defined under the law as “original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression, now known or later developed…” For the purpose of music-related activities and properties, copyrights would cover musical works, including any accompanying words, sound recordings, audiovisual works and motion pictures, and pictorial, graphic or sculptural works.

 

Relating to music properties, a copyright automatically inures in the work as soon as it is fixed in tangible form – this would be once the author writes down or records the music or lyrics. This is considered a common law copyright. Registering the copyright with the Copyright Office, a division of Library of Congress, officially puts the world on notice that this work belongs to the author. To file for a copyright registration, the easiest way to obtain the copyright forms is to do a search online for the Copyright Office. There is a link to the electronic forms on the Copyright Office site.

 

Every copyright situation has a unique set of authorship facts, and I am often asked what qualifies for copyright protection. Copyright protection is not available for just an idea, a process, a system or title of a work. It must be an original work of authorship. I can almost always analyze and guide the legal issues surrounding technical musical questions because I have an intimate and academic knowledge about music. But, sometimes people come to me when it’s too late – once there has been an alleged infringement or when the parties are fighting for and bartering for rights after the fact, did not sort out the issues in the recording studio and did not spend the time nor the funds to take care of the business and legal part of creating the works.  It’s especially difficult to determine rights once the work has been already created and money is involved. For that reason, I always suggest going to an entertainment or copyright lawyer for counseling on complicated issues of copyright, such as when there are multiple authors creating a “joint work” (songwriters, record producers, etc)  or when there is an issue of sampling or creating what is called a derivative work, which is a work based on a previous work.. In the case of sampling or creating derivative works, permissions of the original authors are required. The rights holder, whether it’s a record company or publishing company or both, have the exclusive right to the work. However, there may be cases where the sampling or derivative works are actually free from the required permissions because they might qualify for what is called “fair use.” Ownership issues in copyrights can also be complicated when a client is forming a legal entity such as a corporation or a limited liability company which could commercially exploit the properties.  Sometimes the legal entity owns the copyrights in a property and sometimes the individuals own the copyrights and the copyrights are transferred to the companies at a later date. Advice from a lawyer beforehand is critical.

 

Musician Coaching:

When it comes to writing, publishing and ownership, is it a standard guideline that it’s 50% the lyrics and 50% the track?

 

PJ:

It depends. I believe you are referring to the conventional songwriting model. And, as far as I can tell, that model holds when the pieces can be separated. Every situation is different though and without rendering legal advice here, the most interesting is in the case of joint authorship of a song. The copyright statute provides that a joint work is a “work prepared by two or more authors with the intention that their contributions be merged into inseparable or interdependent parts of a unitary whole.”  A joint work hinges on intent. Often that intent can be assumed or implied. However, even though there may have been an intent at the time of the creation of the work, that intent can be based on certain conditions and actually be nullified in a legal document. A lot of writers with publishing agreements allow for their contributory pieces to revert back if the song does not flesh out– so the intent to create a unitary whole is based on the condition of the song actually taking shape into something that can work as a song. That scenario is going to require a written document to attain in most cases since one typically infers from a joint work that there was the intent to create it. And writers’ credits are negotiable depending on the people involved and what happened in the writing. I’ve represented clients who have relinquished ownership to the copyrights in their songs to band members when the band members actually contributed nothing to the musical composing of the song. I’ve heard that major artists ask for writing credit when they’ve contributed nothing to the song itself except record it.  I’ve also worked with other clients who have constructed a formula for each type of songwriting process, solo, with one guy, with the entire band, etc.

 

Publishing is a very intricate, potentially thorny area of music law and I would never advise that musicians deal with that topic without the advice and counsel of an experienced music attorney.

 

Musician Coaching:

What are some of the common mistakes you see artists making around copyright issues?

 

PJ:

What constitutes “Fair use” is often misunderstood. It’s an exception under the copyright laws which allows for a pre-existing work to be used without the permission and without paying the original author. In music, sampling is the biggest potential problem area, particularly mashups. There is a legal question as to whether these are fair use since they might be considered “transformative.” Have the original works been transformed in a way that created a new fresh work?  The rule of thumb is that if a musician is going to sample or borrow from an author to create a new work, he/she should ask a lawyer and seek the permission of the rights holder of the original work. The fair use issue is a raging topic in the copyright law today that requires dialogue from both sides.

 

From the legal standpoint of protecting creativity, I’m in favor of protecting the rights of our creators under the law. An entire generation has grown up in the Digital Age with the entitlement of free music not even understanding that it’s wrong to take the music without paying for it. They seem to think of it as a birthright because everybody is doing it. The youngest people don’t understand they’ve stolen something from somebody. It’s not necessarily that they intend to do something wrong; it seems they literally just don’t KNOW that it’s wrong. When I speak to young adults, undergrads and law students, I ask people why they’ve opted to pay for music instead of downloading it for free. The response is always the same:  “I felt guilty stealing it and I knew I would have to pay for it someday.”  Based on that response, it’s clear the public is grappling with a real moral question.

 

Reeducating our youth on the morality issue of copyright being an exclusive right to the creator might be a place to start. The French government created a program for French teenagers where the they qualify to receive permanent digital downloads through a government-sponsored program to reeducate the youth of France. Eventually, the consumer ends up paying for the music and the youth are taught that consuming music in this capacity is a bargained for exchange. The French appear to be succeeding with this program and they are a culture which values the rights of authors and are proactive in protecting those rights. Obviously, the French have been some of the greatest creators in the world so they have a vested interested and piracy is not as pervasive there than here. I think we need to try to do reach out in a similar manner to our children, with a stronger, positive image of doing the right thing rather than punishing the consumer in law suits. If we’re able to teach them that taking music without paying for it is like going to the Duane Reade and taking a tube of toothpaste, a toothbrush or a comb and walking out with it, and that eventually, when you have money, you need to pay for the stuff, it could turn the tide to the positive. I would like to see young kids engaging directly with their favorite artists and producers so that they know that these creators are counting on a livelihood based on making music.

 

Musician Coaching:

You were telling me earlier about a piece your wrote for LexisNexis about the changes that have taken place in laws about digital downloads and what constitutes a sale vs. a license. How did that come about?

 

PJ:

I had the honor of launching the music industry law page for LexisNexis, a major publisher that serves the legal community. The first piece I wrote was about the recent case of F.B.T Productions vs. Aftermath Records, Interscope Records and Universal Music Group which has serious implications for the recorded music industry. I teach entertainment law at New England Law, Boston, and as part of my class, which is mainly based on music industry issues, I ask the students to research important topics in music. Last September, one student presented the ruling from the Federal Court of Appeals in the 9^th Circuit (California) regarding Eminem’s first production company, F.B.T. Productions and Aftermath, which of course, is home to Dr. Dre, 50 Cent and others. The facts were that F.B.T. signed a furnishing company deal with Interscope in 1998 for Eminem’s recording services. The contract was then amended to include new terms, in this case, to include new royalty schemes in the digital age. When Universal started doing deals with iTunes for permanent downloads, another amendment was executed in 2004 but apparently, the language in that amendment did not exactly expressly clarify how a digital download would be treated. The amendment ratified, or left standing the original 2004  contractual  language which included the same master licensing provision and the royalty on records sold provision. In 2006, F.B.T audited Aftermath/Interscope/Universal and they may have not liked the results, reviewing how much money they netted on permanent iTunes downloads and also ringtones and ringbacks licensed to cell phone network carriers. It appears that the F.B.T legal team creatively came up with an argument to challenge the definitions in the contractual language.

 

I’m not clear on exactly how they arrived at their analysis. After the audit, the lawyers probably reviewed the contracts with their clients who were complaining, “Hey, we’re taking a bath on all of these digital downloads. We’re being paid pennies in the old school model in the new school digital distro model. What can we do about it?”  The F.B.T. lawyers probably then reviewed the Aftermath contracts and analyzed the contractual relationships with UMG’s digital distributors and realized that it had a licensing agreement with iTunes and the cell phone carriers So, they decided to challenge it. They might have gone through this line of thinking:  “Wait a minute..why aren’t our digital downloads considered licenses also?  Under our contract, masters “licensed” receives 50% of net revenue from those digital delivery distro contracts where as records sold is something different. These guys are currently paying out our digital downloads like records sold through normal retail channels. That language was reserved for retail in bricks and mortar and hard copy sales through the internet since those were agreements for the sale of goods and not licensing of digital delivery relationships. We’re losing a lot of money so let’s challenge the interpretation of the language and see how the court will rule” F.B.T lost at the Federal lower court but the federal appeals court was able to review the decision on a procedural technicality involving whether a contract can be considered ambiguous as a matter of law. The court of appeals looked at the contract and ruled that, “F.B.T stated that the contractual language was not ambiguous. It was a license.” So it moved to the next step and actually analyzed the “masters licensed” provision against the “records sold” provision in the contract, using the federal copyright statute provisions to clarify the ambiguities. The court stated “that pursuant to Federal Copyright Law, the terms ‘license’ and ‘sale’ have well-differentiated meanings. The sale of a work – so a record sale – is a transfer and a title of an individual copy. On the other hand, a license is where a copyright owner transfers a copy of the material and retains title; the owner limits the uses to which the material may be put and is compensated periodically. “The court then reviewed the relationship between iTunes and UMG, deeming those agreements were licensing deals. Since these licensing provisions for master recordings typically exist in every major label agreement, the court ruled that Aftermath should have paid F.B.T a licensing fee for digital downloads licensed to iTunes and others, not treating them like royalties on records sold.  If this ruling is effectuated we’re talking about a lot of money owed as a license rather than on sold records.

 

Musician Coaching:

So what happened next with this ruling? And what will happen if others follow suit?

 

PJ:

The lawyers for Aftermath appealed to the Supreme Court, because that’s as far as you can go. Once you go to the Federal Appellate Court, and the Federal Appellate Court says, “This is rule of law,” the final challenge is to the Supreme Court. In this case, the Supreme Court refused to hear the case. The refusal was on procedural grounds so that’s the end of that. F.B.T now becomes the rule of law. The Estate of Rick James showed up shortly thereafter and filed a class action against Universal. They are now waiting for a sufficient number of members to join the class since a class must be certified by the court in order for the case to proceed. I’m not an expert in class actions but if the case moves forward, it will be very interesting.

 

Musician Coaching:

How are the labels reacting to this?

 

PJ:

I’m not sure, but after working inside a record company, I would imagine that the in-house legal departments are seriously reviewing their pre-internet agreements to determine where they’re vulnerable. They might be redrafting the forms of the contracts to comport with the court’s findings. Legal rulings are often the impetus behind the evolution of recording industry contractual terms. They might be also be considering a monetary settlement with any interested parties to head off any more legal battles in court and asking them to sign amendments to their pre-internet contracts in exchange. As a practitioner, I have to say that when we studied this case in my class, my jaw dropped. Most of us regard the master license provision in recording contracts as the payment structure for master use fees generated from film, TV, commercials and foreign distribution deals and not in connection with digital download distribution. I was shocked when the court interpreted that provision differently but again, thought it was a genius, logical argument since the deals for digital distribution  are licenses and not sales.

 

Musician Coaching:

Well, there is a huge difference between a 15% deal and suddenly now a 50% deal. It seems that if you’re a record label and going from giving away 15 cents to giving away 50 cents on a 99-cent download, that could bankrupt even a big label like Universal.

 

PJ:

That’s my contention. But, for the record, talk to anyone on the street about their perception of the record business. They would like to see these companies put out of business. I talk often to people in the community to gauge the pulse of the public. I live near a Whole Foods where a lot of young people work, and they play great music in there. People will ask me about my work and the common comments is, “Oh, well, the record companies don’t ever give the artists any money.” The great public misnomer is that we have this big, bad industry with a big, bad hatchet that shouldn’t be acting this way. The regular guy on the street thinks these record companies are diabolical and should be put to rest anyway, because they’re already screwing everyone. Having worked at one, you and I know both know how generous and supportive these companies have been and can be to artists, especially unknowns, and that by and large, the people who work on the inside are fans, they are passionate and care about the artists and their work and music.

 

Musician Coaching:

I honestly find that to be on a case-by-case and person-by-person basis. But I think your point is, it’s not always an evil empire and it is certainly not one that is faceless. That part I find to be true.

 

PJ:

There will always be bad and good in any corporation. But, in the main, the people that you worked with and that I have worked with when there was a healthy industry were committed and caring. And when they were doing the work, they were as good as it gets. For the yin, there will always be the yang.

 

Musician Coaching:

And how recent is the F.B.T. case?

 

PJ:

The Supreme Court refusal to hear the case happened in April and the Estate of Rick James also filed in April. I’m not a litigator, and I only represent one act that could be considered a legacy. In my article, I state that anybody working with the legacy and the heritage artists needs to be on notice of this ruling and that this is an opportunity to challenge the contractual language, settle or/and collect unpaid monies. There’s only been the one case filed by Rick James – so it’s really interesting.

 

Musician Coaching:

And what advice would you give to new artists given your experience working in the music industry and in light of all the recent and ongoing developments?

 

PJ:

Digital Music News and Reverb Nation recently conducted a research study on whether emerging artists want to be signed to major labels, and 75% responded that they still want  this. If this is your career goal, the old school format is still in play. It all starts with the song. Great songs are key. Having a unique, interesting singular style and image are key. Musicianship and having an interesting live show is key. Building your audience is the new addition to that formula. You have to tour any and all available markets. There are new models available to the musician today with social networking sites and YouTube. Just because we live in the digital ecology doesn’t mean that you throw out the conventional bricks-and-mortar tools. Use radio if you can – research has determined that consumers find new music primarily through terrestrial radio and word of mouth, i.e. your friends and people who run tastemaker blogs. Save your money to buy the right service: the best producers for your music who understand you and your work; the best marketers who understand you and your music; the right team who is dedicated to you. Don’t’ go to market before you’re ready; make everything as perfect as possible. Always connect with your fans and remember that they are the reason you are doing the work. The most successful artists realize this. But in the end  great songs sell records, and we remember great artists for their great songs.

 

For more information about Patti and her work in the music industry as well as with U.S. Copyright Law, visit http://www.pattijones.com. This interview is intended as information for the general public. It should not be construed as legal advice and readers should not act upon information in this article without professional counsel. The contents of this article may be considered Attorney Advertising in some states.

An older interview from October 2009 but it still has advice useful today.

Gregg Nadel is the Vice President of Marketing and A&R at Atlantic records and the head of an Atlantic Imprint label called F-stop records. He has worked with O.A.R., Zac Brown Band, Marc Broussard, Jon Butler Trio, Paolo Nutini and Trans Siberian Orchestra among others. I was fortunate enough to work with Gregg many years ago when I was in A&R at Lava / Atlantic.

Musician Coaching:
Gregg, thanks for taking the time to meet with me. I often tell people that the best way to get an A&R person’s attention is to self start and to start getting out there on their own selling CD’s, downloads and tickets and developing their online presence, which is the way it was when I was doing A&R. Is this still the most reliable way to get an A&R person’s attention?

GN: Yeah. I’m always really impressed with bands that are able to get something started on their own. For example both O.A.R. and Zac Brown Band were able to develop a regional following and you can see hard work paying off with more fans coming and buying records and tickets. You can see a direct relationship. Usually that’s just a clear-cut sign that there’s a hard-working artist and real self-starter at the core of what’s happening, and that’s always a really promising sign for me – that an artist or band is out there and working really hard and has what it takes to build something.

Musician Coaching:
I’m assuming there’s still an internal sales process in getting a band signed. In other words, you have to go to the heads of the company to get approval. I would guess most people kind of do in this climate. Does the evidence of this hard work you mentioned make it an easier sell?

GN: I think so. There’s actual quantitative information that something’s happening around a particular artist, and it’s not just, “Here’s a song I really like” or “I think there’s potential here.” There’s more information and more to stand on that you can actually evaluate and say that you’re going to be able to build something. It’s harder and harder nowadays and I think it just really takes an effort between the artist and the label and management and a great surrounding team from all sides to really build something.

Musician Coaching:
What would you say are the factors that you’re looking at most? Obviously, you can look at Myspace plays, Twitter followers, but what are the metrics that you put the most stock in when determining if an artist is viable in the marketplace?

GN: Probably a combination of everything, but the biggest thing to me most of the time is the live show and people that are able to start selling tickets, either locally or hopefully even regionally. And also I’m looking for that special magical thing that is happening at a show that is sort of a community being built. That really is, at the end of the day, what makes the light bulb go on for me.

Musician Coaching:
You’re also doing marketing in addition to A&R. Given this unique perspective, can you tell us what it is you think about a band that makes you think they have the kind of appeal – be it broad or niche – that makes you feel like you can expose them to even broader audiences? Is there something about these artists you select that you look at and think, “I can market the hell out of this?” What is this “intangible” to you?

GN: I try to find artists that are built on real fan bases and not necessarily upon the traditional channels of radio and video, especially in today’s world. I’d rather do everything else and then come to radio and video as the final piece of the puzzle. No matter how great a song you think you have, or how great an artist you have, everything needs to line up absolutely perfectly for to actually connect it at radio and at video and at the mainstream channels. For an artist to have a long-term career, it’s much more important to build the foundation properly and make sure you’re going market by market, winning fan by fan and while you’re doing that on the road, following that online. Number one is finding bands that I know can play and knock people out live. I need to feel confident that if I’m going to go into a city, the next time we come back there will be more people at the show. It’s just patience and hitting the same cities over and over and being really concise in planning.

Musician Coaching:
Does the 360 deal change your selection process at all or how you launch an artist? Was it different 5 years ago than it is today?

GN: For me, personally, no. I’ve always gravitated towards the type of bands that have been able to build touring followings, so for me it’s really an exciting place to be in the business and an exciting future. Now we are partners with the artists on the touring and on the merch and on the fan club, and – all these ideas we’ve been working on and building over the past 10 years – now we’re actually partners on these things. I’m really excited about the next 5 years. For example, there’s a young band I’m working with called Jonathan Tyler and the Northern Lights; starting from being a local thing down in Texas and watching it develop regionally and then nationally on a touring front is the kind of thing I’m really super excited about at the moment.

Musician Coaching:
Along the same lines, how are labels or how is Atlantic specifically contributing to those other streams of revenue above and beyond the old way a record company functioned? I know companies like Warner Music Group was purchasing outside companies to support touring and publishing and merch, but how are you seeing that work?

GN: We have in-house partnership deals now and have our own merch company for retail, touring and online, and we’ve got a VIP ticketing and fan club company. The most exciting thing is that an artist now is never off cycle. As an example, Marc Broussard is in the process of making a new record, but we’re doing this really intimate acoustic tour. We’ll have a full company marketing meeting on the tour – naming the tour, creating merch around the tour, all these things. In the old days it would sort of be off the grid and off the radar. Management would be dealing with that tour, but now it’s just as important 12-16 months after a record for the company to be focusing in and making sure that artist is playing to packed rooms and the tour is doing well and the career is growing as if you were starting to launch a record. It’s a great time for the right artist in these deals because they’re going to get that type of support all the time and on every tour, and managing their Web sites and merch and tour posters and making sure the street team is covering everything. We’ve also brought street team companies in house as well.

Musician Coaching:
I’m also told that Atlantic has allowed you to manage some of the artists you’re working with as well. How are you managing that workload, and how are you seeing the role of a manager changing?

GN: I think the workload is a functionality of only taking on as much as you feel you can handle and really do a great job. Whether it’s management, signing a new band or taking on a different project internally, that all falls under the same category for me. It’s how much I think I can do. From the management side, I’m not necessarily looking to manage stuff that’s signed to F-Stop or Atlantic only. It could be things that are either unsigned and continue to be independent, or at another label. It just has to be the right project and feel the right way for me to want to get involved.

Musician Coaching:
Could you tell me a little bit about the philosophy behind F-Stop and who is signed there and how it works?

GN: So far we have an artist named Matt Hires and Jonathan Tyler and the Northern Lights. I think the philosophy is to create a small internal team around a small roster of artists that can live off the radar and really develop from the baby stage of their career and get their feet under them with our help before having to go into the bigger system. Then at the right point in time we pull on the different levers within company to start helping out and building and then – whether it’s a year or two years or two albums down the road – depending on each project and each artist, we want to get them into the Atlantic system.

Musician Coaching:
You’re getting tons of unsolicited calls and e-mails. Any other advice you’d have for artists about things you wish they’d have together that would impress you?

GN: Honestly, this sounds silly, but if I stumble onto somebody’s website or Myspace, the first point is to make sure you have contact information. It seems crazy, but I’ve stumbled upon things where I can’t get a hold of the person. Stuff comes in all different shapes and sizes, and I’ve learned not to be turned off if someone’s Myspace or Web site doesn’t look great or if a song isn’t recorded the right way. It’s about listening to a song and seeing what’s really going on.

Check out Gregg’s label F-Stop Music

Ariel Hyatt is Music publicist who started her Career in the 90s as a traditional publicist doing PR for Artists like Lee Scratch Perry, George Clinton, The Nitty Gritty Dirt Band and Project Logic, which was a project that featured John Popper of Blues Traveler and DJ Logic.  Several years ago she decided to bring her business exclusively online and developed proprietary software that enables her to do Cyber PR campaigns for artists that focus on getting her clients reviewed online in blogs and websites and placement into popular podcasts.

 

Musician Coaching:

Prior to you creating the software that allows your clients to track the music that goes out to the blogs you work with, what was the process of PR like for you? What were you doing to get your artists talked about?

 

AH:

The process of Cyber PR was born out of the utter frustration of being a traditional publicist. For ten years I was just a traditional publicist, writing press releases, pitching music journalists, newspapers, radio, magazines, TV and after September 11^th I noticed the pitching wasn’t going well at all and there seemed to be fewer and fewer music journalists writing at local beats. The AP Wire seemed to have taken over running pieces in smaller magazines that were nationally syndicated, and my artists were getting fewer and fewer results. So I started looking online, and as I was doing all my business, in the back of my head a little voice would say, “Wouldn’t it be great if I had a system that would track all the people in Detroit so I wouldn’t have to go hand-pick a list every time” or “Wouldn’t it be great if while I was sleeping there would be something that would send out e-mail alerts about my bands” or “Wouldn’t it be great if I could actually see who was opening the envelope, and who was listening to the music vs. the people that were just taking it directly to the used CD store?” So Cyber PR was basically just a software that answered all my “Wouldn’t it be great if” questions.

 

Musician Coaching:

So you contacted a bunch of developers, and what you just described is what you designed?

 

AH:

Exactly. I contracted many developers. And also, I must give Derek Sivers credit, because he was the first person to come up with the concept of Cyber PR. He came to my house one night and said, “You know why I’m doing so, so well with CD Baby and you seem to be doing okay but not doing as well as me with Ariel Publicity?” And I said, “I’d love to know why.” And he said, “Because I invented something that everybody is invited to the table for, and you do something that you have to be very careful and very exclusive about who you work with. If you could just come up with a PR solution where anyone that wanted it could have it, you would have tremendous success.” And I cried, literally and said, “Oh my God, that’s not possible.” But luckily for me, with the advent of the Internet and as broadband started becoming more and more available and as more and more people started blogging and more and more opportunities started happening, that’s exactly what did come to pass. Under Derek’s tutelage and guidance, he helped me discover Ruby on Rails, which is the language in which it’s written, and we went to several different teams of people who at the end of the day delivered a web-based boutique PR firm management system, and that’s what Cyber PR is.

 

Musician Coaching:

Talk to me about the results of these campaigns – I am guessing they vary greatly because there’s nothing you can do when somebody doesn’t have a story.  Should artists actually sit down before contacting a publicist and ask themselves, “What is our story? What is our press focus?”

 

AH:

Absolutely. I think the problem with any type of work for hire in the music industry is just because you can afford it and pay for it doesn’t mean it’s going to actually yield you the result you want. I think even before you look at your story, which of course a publicist or a marketer does need, you need to ask yourself, “What do I want? What is my end goal?” I think this is the part a lot of musicians struggle with because they don’t actually know. They work so hard to create an album, get it produced, get it mixed, get it mastered and get it out into the world, that they don’t think beyond the creative process of making amazing music. They just work so hard at their craft and don’t then think, “What am I going to do after this album is finished? What’s my goal? Do I want to tour and touch a lot of people live? Do I want to sell a lot of digital copies on iTunes? Do I want to place this music in film and television? Do I want to have just a physical thing I can sell when I play locally?” These are all things you need to begin to ask yourself first. What would the reason be for hiring a publicist? In order to do that you need to take it back even a step further and say, “What is the result when I hire a publicist?” I think literally nine times out of ten when people would come to me when I was a traditional PR firm, they wouldn’t even understand what a publicist did, they just somehow knew they needed publicity, so it made sense to hire a publicist.

 

Musician Coaching:

I guess that leads to a good question:  As someone that has done this her entire adult life, what does a publicist do?

 

AH:

I think a good publicist is one of the invisible members in your band. It’s the person who is the mouthpiece and helps you craft your story. Of course you have your story, but a publicist is the one that should be able to pull it out of you and position it. Your publicist should be able to leverage his/her connections and contacts they’ve had that they’ve built and connect you to them. And a good publicist should help you with strategy. It shouldn’t just be, “Here’s a list of 100 places we’re going to mail your CD.” What’s the strategy? Is this a music tech conversation you’re having? Should we be going for music tech blogs and publications? Or is this a lifestyle kind of thing? Are you also a fashion designer, and we’re going to try to get you placed in fashion magazines? Is this a human interest piece? Does your music somehow benefit a charity, or are you singing about something that is beneficial to other people? Are we going to go for humanitarian publications and magazines? I think just having a list of 100 random music people that like to review albums will yield some results, but with over 2,000 records coming out every single week, your publicist should really help you get a vision and help you say, “Here’s what’s special and unique” aside from just, “Here’s yet another good album.” Is it a local angle? Are you doing something very locally? That could be a good jumping off place. What’s happening in your local town? What other local bands are you playing with? Are you making an impact in your local community? And the more fodder a publicist can get to help you start to build your story, the better.

 

Musician Coaching:

I guess that supports what I tell clients fairly regularly. “Dude releases record” is no longer newsworthy, so I would say even before you get to a publicist you have to think about what you’re doing that is newsworthy or setting out to do newsworthy things. Would you agree?

 

AH:

I would agree 100%. I look at Matthew Ebel, who is an artist I’ve been blogging about recently on Music Think Tank in my 1000 True Fans series. When I met Matthew, he had a really, really good idea to do a subscription-based website called MatthewEbel.net, where he was doing a weekly concert on YouStream, which now he has over 300 people come and tune in every week, which is amazing. He had this idea of recording a song a month and having people on a paid subscription basis gain special access to him and his music and his videos. And that was such a good and compelling story, and he started having success. All of a sudden the Boston Globe was calling me and saying, “We heard about this local artist, and would you comment on what he’s done?” He didn’t go after all the press in his local area and say, “Hey look what I’m doing.” He just created something that was compelling enough. And this goes back to of course the classic Seth Godin blog where he says, “Unless one person is telling the next and telling the next and telling the next, you don’t really have a viable, great product.” So in Matthew Ebel’s case, his project started taking off, and the media came to him. I’ve seen this time and time again. The national media will come to you, or any type of media, if you actually have a story that’s buzzworthy.

 

Musician Coaching:

Tell me about some of your traditional publicity experiences…

 

AH:

When I was a traditional publicist, I worked with larger artists like Lee Scratch Perry and George Clinton and P Funk.  What’s fascinating about those types of clients and so true is that you as a publicist are literally, in my humble opinion, only as good as your clients. So the day George Clinton got arrested – and I was representing him at the time – all of a sudden every single newspaper and magazine and music journalist started calling me. Rolling Stone called me, Spin called, Random Notes called. It was insane. And these were music journalists that I couldn’t get on the phone for years, and music journalists that I had sent literally 10,000 packages to over the years. And here was this big news story – which was a sad story – about one of the godfathers of modern music getting arrested, and this was when the press came to me.

The other thing where I had a really interesting journey was working with Sally Taylor, who had an enormous pedigree as the daughter of James Taylor and Carly Simon. Getting publicity for her was not difficult. All I had to do, unfortunately was lead with, “Here’s who this girl is,” and the phone would ring off the hook. So I managed to place thousands of articles. And with Lee Scratch Perry too, yet another living legend. It’s not hard to be a publicist for those type of clients. All you have to do is literally put the word out and sit back and wait for the phone to ring. I’m not saying you don’t strategize for major artists, because of course; Marilyn Laverty beautifully strategizes Bruce Springsteen. Every time he has a release, it’s artful to see how it all unfolds. But when you’re not at that level, what do you do and how do you get the attention? That is where a whole lot of misunderstandings tend to happen. And if you ask any publicist that’s ever worked for an independent musician or an artist that does not have an enormous buzz-worthy story or something crazy like a famous parent pedigree or a human interest that’s so strong, they’ll say it’s difficult. I remember once I got an editor of People Magazine on the phone and he said, “If your client survived cancer and came back from the brink of death, I might be interested in talking about their music. Otherwise, it’s not big enough for us.”

I remember feeling really humbled when he said that. I also will never forget when I sat down with David Wild from Rolling Stone after sending him thousands of CD’s. He knew who I was, he’s a huge music fan, he knew all or most of the clients I represented. I did one of those mentor sessions with him at South by Southwest. I was a young publicist, and I had fifteen minutes with him, and I was really upset when I sat down and said, “Why won’t you ever call me back? Why won’t you ever acknowledge when I send you all these artists?” And he said, “They’re not ready for me. I am at Rolling Stone. Rolling Stone has a readership of over two million, and your artists aren’t newsworthy. They’re very good, but they’re not newsworthy. And when they become newsworthy I will call them. And please tell them that the best place to get coverage is local newspapers, local beats.” This was back in the day when there was local beat. It doesn’t exist anymore, because when newspapers started to get into trouble, the local beat music reporter was the first on the chopping block. So that was a very long-winded answer, but your publicist should be able to strategize that type of conversation that David Wild had with me:  “Where are we going to start? What is the story going to be?”

Musician Coaching:

What are some of the success stories you’ve had since Cyber PR started? How have you built some of these people into getting regular press?

 

AH:

You know, it’s been really, really fun. One of our success stories where classic online publicity feeds major publicity is, we work with an artist named John Taglieri. John is an artist who for many years has been doing his own blend of classic rock. He took to Cyber PR like a fish to water, totally fell in love with the system, and he worked every contact that we introduced him to. He became a chart-topper on the PodSafe Music Network, and he got his music played on hundreds of podcasts. After that happened, Billboard Magazine was doing a story on podcasting and musicians and saw he was on the chart. They called him, and he ended up getting featured in Billboard. Now I could’ve Fed-Exed his album to Billboard and said, “Here’s this great record,” but it wouldn’t have meant anything to them. He built a story, and they came to him.

 

Musician Coaching:

So it really is important in terms of building blocks. In other words, I just interviewed a radio independent who said as well, “We have to start with all the small stations and then the big stations look at the small stations” or agents who say “If you’re on tour, you get the opening slots or the Monday nights and then you build up from there.” I suppose it’s the same thing.

 

AH:

That’s absolutely right. I agree. Each thing feeds the next, and it’s so hard I think to determine what is the thing that’s going to hit. When I started publicizing John through Cyber PR, I publicized him the way I publicized a hundred other artists, but it was John who understood how to use the system and who went and introduced himself to every single podcaster and got himself fully involved in the system. And they liked him, and we had a national PR win. That was really exciting. I have a couple of case studies. One of our artists Omar Alexander said he saw a 20% increase in CD sales, both physical and digital since he hired us. Dudley Saunders, who’s from Los Angeles increased his email list by 102%. Kelly Richie, who’s a blues musician from Cincinnati received 90 placements on blogs, podcasts and internet radio stations. And Will Danes created a portfolio of all his exposure, which helped him sign to a national booking agency. And one other artist e-mailed us, which I was so excited about. Her name is Josephine, and she’s from France. She was about to be deported and by showing what we got to the NIS, she obtained an Extraordinary Ability Visa to stay in the United States. It’s funny, Cyber PR seems to achieve different things for different people. If I can just help an artist go from 23 followers to 1,000 in Twitter, I feel like we’re worth our weight in gold.

 

Musician Coaching:

So, you’ve had this book Music Success in 9 Weeks for a couple years if I’m not mistaken.

 

AH:

Yeah. Music Success in 9 Weeks came out in June of 2008.

 

Musician Coaching:

And you just released the second edition. What did you change, or did you just reflect the fact that technology has changed so much?

 

AH:

Well, when I first wrote Music Success in 9 Weeks, Facebook didn’t even have fan pages. The net changes at such breakneck speed. And when I first released it also, I was going on and on about how wonderful Twitter is, and everybody looked at me like I had seven heads. Now that Twitter has hit the mainstream, I sort of updated that as well and talked about some other musicians that have actually used Twitter to make money like Amanda Palmer, or musicians who have millions of followers. Of course I talk about John Mayer, who I think uses Twitter beautifully. I also added a lot about Facebook and the fan pages and why it’s so important to have those. I also completely rewrote the blogging chapter because blogging has evolved massively, and the NYU study that happened in 2007 was very interesting, but there have been some other studies that we’ve been paying close attention to here at Cyber PR including the 2009 Musicadium study. And so I wanted to talk about these new findings from an academic standpoint as well as from a musician youth standpoint. Also, there are so many new apps. iPhone wasn’t even really in the mainstream. All these apps that help people on their phones like Tweetdeck and Tweety and Tweet Later and all these amazing Twitter applications; none of these were really in existence, so there was a lot to update.

 

Musician Coaching:

Any final words of warning for musicians if someone is not yet at the point of hiring a publicist? Any advice about approaching bloggers?

 

AH:

General advice is, “Don’t hype yourself.” The days of hyping are over. Don’t hype, don’t sell, it will just land horribly. Understand that we are now in a brand new world. PR 2.0 is here to stay, and it’s all about two-way conversations and understanding who you are talking to. The thing that’s amazing about social media – which is why I’ve completely moved my company over to be a social media PR firm – is, that is about understanding other people and understanding that you can’t just approach them with a “Me, me, me” attitude. So my number one piece of advice is, “If you can contribute and contribute in a way that makes people appreciate you, you will succeed with online publicity.”

——–

You can find out more about Ariel’s Cyber PR Service, her book Music Success in Nine Weeks or Follow her on Twitter

Panos Panay is the Founder and CEO of Sonicbids, a site that helps connect indie artists and bands with promoters looking to book them. A native of the island of Cyprus, Panay came to the U.S. in the early ‘90s to attended Berklee College of Music as a guitar performance major, with aspirations of becoming a jazz guitarist. While at Berklee, he got interested in the school’s new Music Business Program and became fascinated by the structure of the music industry and the relationships between managers, agents, record labels, publicists and publishers. An internship with Ted Kurland Associates led him to a career as an agent booking bands and artists including Pat Metheny, Chick Corea, Sonny Rollins, Branford Marsalis, Isaac Hayes and Patti Labelle.

In early 2001, Panos quit his job as VP of the International Division at ted Kurland and started the next phase of his life as entrepreneur and business owner. Sonicbids was launched on February 25, 2001 with the mission to empower what he deems the “artistic middle class” to help them build their careers through the use of technology. Through Sonicbids he helps artists fulfill their needs and answer what he sees as their three biggest questions: 1) How do I make a living? 2) How can I connect with a larger audience? 3) How can I get my music out there?

 

As he enters his tenth year at the helm of Sonicbids, I had the opportunity to talk to Panos about his company and its future, his mission in the music world and some advice he has for artists and bands trying to get noticed amidst the noise.

 

—

Musician Coaching:

Why did you take the giant risk of becoming an entrepreneur, maxing out credit cards and starting Sonicbids ten years ago?

Panos:

Besides the normal insanity that possesses anybody that decides become an entrepreneur, I think being an agent and obviously coming to the States to be a musician, I had experienced firsthand how difficult it was. Back in about 1999, I started to notice it was unnecessarily difficult for bands who made under a certain amount of money to be in contact with people who wanted to book them. As an agent, we had an informal rule that unless you made $3,000 a night, we couldn’t really do anything with you. We couldn’t book you because it just didn’t make financial sense for somebody who was getting ten percent to go out there and make a bunch of phone calls to try to book somebody for under about $300 gross take. And after you deduct your expenses, there’s just not a lot of money left. I thought, “Not everybody I know makes $3,000 per night, and in fact, I don’t know anybody that makes over $3,000 per night except the people I’m booking.” All my friends who were in bands and all the people around me made $100 a night, if that. I thought, “Why should it be this difficult for people to connect, especially in an era where you can buy airplane tickets, books and even trade stocks online? Why can’t you find a gig or book a band online?” That was the impetus to start Sonicbids.

I know a lot of people have an image of people who start businesses. You start a business because you want to become uber rich, or you start a business because you want to be self employed or have freedom. To be honest with you, I didn’t start a business for any of these reasons. I started a business because I had a vision of what I wanted to create and what I wanted to provide and accomplish. This vision was very intense, and I don’t think it’s dimmed at all in the last ten years. I think it’s even intensified. It’s just like it is for an artist: You have a song in your head, and you’re really eager to put it down on a piece of paper and compose it and record it and then go out into the world and play it for people who will really enjoy it, and if you’re lucky, you create a song that hundreds of thousands or millions of people love. It’s a similar thing with an entrepreneur: You have this vision, and it’s like a mission from God that you want to accomplish that thrusts you every day out of bed. That’s what’s been keeping me going for ten years. I tell a lot of people that maybe the second craziest thing to being in a rock band is starting your own business. There are a lot of similarities between the two. I think besides being a musician, being an entrepreneur has always enabled me to relate to the people that we service.

Musician Coaching:

I left a fledgling career as a musician to become an A&R guy, thinking that would be the safe thing to do. Little did I know …

Panos:

Maybe that’s the third craziest thing to do, after being in a rock band or running a company.

Musician Coaching:

It seems as if Sonicbids is a company that is still true to your original vision. You really have built a platform where you’re helping people get gigs, although it seems like the company is expanding in different ways as well. If I had to guess, I’d say that one out of four opportunities you offer are licensing based or related to music placement. Then of course you guys are branching out, and you just launched Facebook enhancements page and the recent acquisition of artistdata.com, so you are also in the marketing tools business as well. Is the direction changing at all, or is it just getting more comprehensive?

Panos:

I think it’s evolving more than anything else. When I started the company, my passion had always been and still is for empowerment. I grew up in a very small country. So when I was growing up in the ‘80s, the ability to connect with people, and the yearning to reach out there and access opportunity was very limited. I think in many ways that’s informed the stuff I’ve done in my life. This concept of empowerment has always been very much part of the DNA of Sonicbids. I defined the vision early on. The mission was surrounding empowering this new class of artists that back then I thought of as a “middle class.” We want to empower this class to go out there and connect with any opportunity that exists and develop a career in the manner they deem fit and not in the manner someone else tells them.

For me, I feel at the end of the day every artist and every piece of music yearns to find an audience. It yearns to find somebody that’s going to listen to it. For Sonicbids, whether that music is consumed by somebody that goes to a festival and sees your band on that stage, or it’s somebody that sees a show on MTV and connects with your music through the background track that’s going on or accesses your music through a video game, or connects with your music because of an awesome brand campaign that we helped you create, fundamentally to me doesn’t make a difference. We’ve defined a gig as not just a “live show,” but as success or a deal or a way to expose your music – a conduit for you to get your music out there. Whether it’s on a blog, or a series at a winery in California, or a gig at South by Southwest, it doesn’t really matter. A gig is a way to put you in front of an audience and get your music in front of that crowd. Many times people will say, “Not everything on Sonicbids is something that pays artists.” And I’m the biggest proponent for artists getting paid, but I also know as a guy that has run a business for many years, sometimes I get more value by doing a relationship where money didn’t change hands, but it gave me a platform for exposure or it gave me something I really valued.

Musician Coaching:

So I have neither a torch nor a pitchfork in my hand when I ask the following question but I know there is a lot of concern about just how much and how often musicians are paying different services (my services included) for the chance to get heard, get a gig, get marketed etc. How did you arrive at the concept – aside from the fact that the market would bear it – of creating a community where you have musicians paying for these opportunities, rather than the talent agencies that source these opportunities paying the fees?

Panos:

I think that’s a great and legitimate question. Submission fees have existed long before Sonicbids came into existence, and certainly submission fees will exist in any business. If you’re an architect and you’re submitting your drawings to somebody for consideration, you pay money. If you’re a college student and are looking to gain admission to a college, you pay money. Fundamentally, it does take effort on the other end for somebody to review it.

Definitely at the beginning of the company, I felt very strongly that paying a token fee of $2-$5 to apply to something acted as a filter. It makes people think twice before they apply to something and clutter somebody’s inbox with a submission that is totally inappropriate and adds so much noise that even the ones that are legitimate don’t get considered. If somebody opens their inbox and they have thousands of submissions, and 955 of them are complete crap, the 45 that are really appropriate don’t get considered whatsoever. The fee also puts the pressure on the other end and even almost guilts those folks into listening to stuff. Does it always work? No. I think there have been situations on Sonicbids where people have been illegitimate and have tried to prey on artists and we have always taken the hard line and booted them.
Do I think artists should pay $35, $40 or $50 for stuff, or even $25 or $15 for things that don’t add value? Not at all. The average gig listing on Sonicbids costs $6. You have the big ones like South by Southwest or others that cost $40 or $45. But those submission fees have existed long before we were around. It costs you $30 or $35 to submit for song contests. These fees too have always existed. And if you apply through Sonicbids, it doesn’t cost you a penny more than if you were to send your CD through the mail like you had to in the old days. My philosophy is, you don’t pay a penny more to go through Sonicbids than you would’ve otherwise. But the fees, when they work – and I would say they work very well about 90% of the time – are a small cost for the musician. But for the promoter, it gives them the ability to hire and pay a band that normally they wouldn’t necessarily have the flexibility to hire.

I’ll give you an example. Summerfest in Milwaukee is actually one of the world’s biggest festivals. They get 1.2 million people over the course of ten days to come to the festival. Prior to working with them in 2004, not a single band playing there was an indie band. Fast forward through the past six years of working together, and there are 60 bands, all emerging artists that are playing there and getting paid. The reason they’re able to do that is not because the sponsors give them money to go and book emerging artists. The sponsors give them money to go book the big, flashy names. The fees we charge are making it possible for these guys to book and pay 60 emerging artists and put them in front of an audience and on stages where they normally wouldn’t play. I can go on and on about the tours of China or Scandinavia we have or the tens of thousands of opportunities that exist out there.

Musician Coaching:

The important thing is really just how it works philosophically. And I think you explained that- thank you.

Panos:

Let me clarify one more thing also. Our thinking has evolved. Actually, we realized that one of the disadvantages of these submission fees is that they can discourage people from experimenting. They think, “I could pay $10 to apply to something I really know – for example, Bonnaroo – but there’s this opportunity that I haven’t really heard of before that costs $5. Even though the $5 option seems like a good fit for me, I’m going to submit to Bonnaroo.” We realized in the past ten years that more people tend to apply to the “hits,” and the bigger opportunities like Bonnaroo or the tours of China where only one band is getting selected. This is a staggering figure, but 60% of the gigs on Sonic Bids in a given day wouldn’t receive a submission. We thought that was weird.

Last year we had 70,000 gigs booked through the site, which is great. And we knew that one out of twelve bands that submitted got selected, which is not really that bad when you think about it. But then I thought, “There’s something really ridiculous here. So, 60% of our gigs don’t get submissions in a given day, but only 10% of our membership on a given day gets selected to something they apply to? That’s bullshit.” So, what we decided to do is eliminate fees for gradually 90%-95% of our gig listings. We will segment our gig listings – and you’ll see this in the next few weeks – into premium listings that cost money and then all other gig listings will get moved to a system where based on your membership, you’ll be able to access a certain number of them entirely for free.

We’ve seen it through the beta tests we’ve done over the last five months: it substantially increases the selection numbers of people, because they’re no longer afraid to experiment and submit to things. They figure it doesn’t cost them a whole lot. We’re putting these filters in place by effectively limiting the number of gigs you can apply to every month for free, based on your level of membership. So, if you’re a “Sonic” member, you’ll get a certain amount, if you’re a “Super Sonic” member, you’ll get maybe two times the amount. We’re very excited about this direction. At launch, about 65% of the gig listings will be free, and then gradually over the next three or four months we plan to convert about 90% of them to this system.

Musician Coaching:

The biggest complaints / requests I get – aside from the lofty “hail Marys” I get via my website like “Can you help me get a record deal and a hot girlfriend … and a sandwich?” – is about getting an agent. I know bands who can draw 200 people in twelve markets but still can’t get an agent. I was wondering if from what you’ve seen as an agent and as a guy running a live opportunity platform, which best practices you’ve come up with for getting and booking their own gigs? Are there some dos and don’ts you can share about what is getting people better gigs and what is not?

Panos:

As far as Sonicbids goes, you might be amazed, but it’s the most obvious things. For example, make sure it looks like you’ve actually taken care of your EPK when you’re putting it together. I can’t believe how many people just slap things together and throw in some photos to create something that looks like it took three minutes. The person on the other end thinks, “If you don’t take this seriously, why should I assume you’re going to take the gig I risk my night on seriously?”

I think it’s so very important, whether you’re an artist trying to reach a promoter or a business trying to do business with a customer, to not think of yourself. Put yourself in the mind of the person you’re trying to engage. A lot of people tend to think of these promoters as these big, wealthy powerful people. That’s absolutely not the case. In fact, most people I know that book music in clubs are often as poor if not poorer than the average musician. They’re taking a bet every time. It is a labor of love. Most people that run clubs don’t make a lot of money. But they do it because many of them genuinely really love music. They take a bet every single night that people are going to show up to see the band they booked and have a few drinks, and based on that, these people are going to make some money. It’s really not a business that anybody tends to get attracted to because they’re trying to become millionaires or billionaires. If people want to get rich, they go into other businesses or go work on Wall Street. I find that taking care of the way you put together your press kit, and indicating that other people have taken a bet on you in the past by filling out your calendar or even putting in a simple video shot with your iPhone that shows your band’s energy and photos that show energy and that you care. The included bio should be witty. These things make a tremendous difference.

Musician Coaching:

Regarding the video, I have it in my head that showing a band in front of a crowd does something psychologically. Have you found that to be the case?

Panos:

Yeah. We talk to our promoters all the time, either directly or through surveys. And everyone says, “The thing that makes the most difference for me is not some fancy video that someone shot that looks like they spent ten grand doing it. I like to see raw footage of a band in front of a crowd with the crowd getting really energized. That tells me everything I need to know.”

Sometimes I see bands obsessing over the songs they’re going to put up there and saying, “Oh man, the production isn’t quite ready yet.” And the truth is, music today is not consumed through $5,000 Bang and Olufson speakers. Most of us consume music either on crappy headphones, crappy computer speakers or crappy car speakers. I’d much rather have people worry about the way their EPK looks, the kind of video and media they put up there and the reviews and links they include rather than worrying about how good the production on their song is. Ultimately, nobody will ever hear the song the way you’re hearing it in the studio when you cut it and won’t listen to it as closely as you do when you hear it through your own headphones. It’s certainly not the way a promoter listens to music. Sometimes a promoter is going through hundreds of these and needs to pick one or two.

The other advice I have is to spend time on your social media. You’ll be amazed, but people do care about how many Facebook friends and “likes” you have, how many Twitter followers you have and what the general Twitter buzz is about you. I think there are a ton of different tools out there to help you with this. I think dismissing social media or not minding your online presence is akin to suicide today. Most promoters are 25-30-year old kids who just really dig music, so of course they’re going to go online. The first thing they’ll do probably is Google your band. Even promoters who use Sonicbids say, “I use Sonicbids as an entryway. It helps me know which things I’m not interested in, I narrow it down to the people I am interested in, but then after I listen to their EPK and it draws my attention, I’m going to spend a little bit more time.” That means they’re going to go online and see what’s going on. We give promoters a lot of links in their submission view when they’re looking at it. They don’t just see a band’s EPK. They also see things like Last FM plays, Twitter buzz, Google blog buzz and all kinds of other aids that help a promoter make a decision.

For me this is high-level advice for the average band. When I was an agent I had a very simple philosophy: “I’m going to out-work everyone else around me and be the guy that makes more calls and spends more time and charms more people so I can book this tour.” I think it’s the same thing as an artist. It comes down to how much you want it. Are you willing to make one more call or one more submission than the guy next to you? I know everybody says they want it. But it takes a certain level of dedication. If it was easy, most people would be successful.

—————-

For more information about the services Sonicbids offers, visit the Sonicbids website. Also check out Panos’ blog, Panos’ Brew.