This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
Rebecca Rienks is the music supervisor at E! Entertainment. A lifelong music fan, Rebecca interned at a variety of companies and venues while she was attending Thornton School of Music at USC, including Interscope Records, Capitol Records and The Roxy. After graduation, she got a position as the assistant to the president of the music department at Lionsgate Films, where she worked on many film and television projects, such as the Leonard Cohen documentary I’m Your Man, Crash, The Devil’s Rejects and the first Saw film. She then helped launch an independent boutique music supervision firm called Creative Control, where she was the senior creative director for five and a half years. She has been at E! since 2011.
I talked to Rebecca about her responsibilities and experiences as a music supervisor at a major cable network and how artists can prepare their music to pitch to film and television. She also shared some critical advice for musicians that want to get their music heard by the gatekeepers at film studios and television networks.
Thanks so much for taking some time to chat, Rebecca. How did you get started in the music business?
RR:
I graduated from the Thornton School of Music at USC. I was in the music business program there for about two and a half years as a transfer student. During my time there, I took a lot of different jobs and internships so I would have a lot of great experience and be in a good position getting out of school. I interned at places like Interscope and Capitol in the A&R department. I also worked in the club office and in ticketing at The Roxy.
Then, when I graduated, one of my professors hooked me up with the executive at Lionsgate Films. I interviewed to be the assistant to the president of the music department there and got the job. I was there for about two and a half years, and I worked on a lot of great projects, like the Leonard Cohen documentary I’m Your Man, Crash and the accompanying Oscar® campaign. I also worked on Rob Zombie’s The Devil’s Rejects, the first Saw movie, a bunch of indie films and a lot of television shows. It was a time when that studio was much smaller. It is still independent these days, but it was at a different level during that time. There were only three people in the entire music department running everything.
That was a great job to have as a launching pad out of school. But it wasn’t as if I had aimed to go into film music. This was around 2004, and music supervision wasn’t the kind of thing that everybody talks about like they do now. It was essentially just a job that, when I got out of school, I took to really well. I had a really great rapport with the head of the department. When he finally decided he wanted to leave and move onto other things after having been at Trimark, Artisan and Lionsgate for over a decade, I ended up leaving and going with him. We launched a company together called Creative Control.
We continued to work together under the independent supervision banner of Creative Control for the better part of five or so years. Only in the last year have I moved over to doing more TV.I am now the music executive/music supervisor for E! Entertainment. I oversee music concerns for the entire channel. The way we divvy things up on the cable end of the spectrum is that each person oversees basically an entire channel. So, I oversee all music concerns for E!, including promos for E! itself and the Style Network. I also handle music publishing concerns for several of our cable channels. And I oversee our work with Ryan Seacrest Productions and the team that does all our red carpet events for the Oscars, Emmys, BAFTAs, Grammys and everything else.
And does that also involve talent wrangling?
RR:
Yes and no. Essentially, we liaise with the live events team and the talent department to coordinate all the music you hear on our red carpet specials, including live music and any interstitial music that needs to be licensed or scored. It’s music supervision, but there is a talent aspect if we need to coordinate with an artist to do something live on the red carpet. It’s essentially a 360-degree job of music concerns as it relates to the E! channel.
You mentioned you work with two different types of music. Could you estimate which percentage flowing through your hands is music that is specifically written for something on the network, and which percentage is licensed?
RR:
It really just depends on the program and the timeline. I come out of the sensibility of, “If we have this very specific need we have to fulfill, why not hire someone to create an asset for us that we can A&R from the ground up, so we get exactly what we want?” Otherwise, we have to search high and low for something that is possibly putting a square peg in a round hole. So, again, it really just depends.
There are instances where it makes sense for us to license whatever the hot pop track is now, or music from some kind of heat-seeking band that deserves coverage on a network like ours that is obviously focused on pop culture. Then there are times we need something to fit the sound and the style and the vibe, but we can’t afford Nicki Minaj or Katy Perry. So, we get somebody to come in and create what we need.
I’d actually say it’s pretty much 50/50, because I do also help people find and secure composers for our shows, for theme song opportunities and promo music we need created. But obviously as a pop culture channel, we do a lot of licensing of pop music and Billboard-friendly music.
I want to talk to you about licensing, because that’s obviously an incredibly important topic among aspiring musicians. But first, I’m assuming you work repeatedly with a lot of the same firms – those composition houses, etc. that create music for you regularly.
RR:
I wouldn’t say we go back to any one well in particular. Personally, I don’t often engage composition houses to do that sort of thing, because they are just entities with staff composers that turn stuff out all the time. While there is obviously a place for that, and I would never say I don’t use that kind of material or wouldn’t work with entities of that nature, I just prefer to work on an “artist” level. My background involved being in the music school and knowing a lot of people who were composers, musicians and in bands. So, I prefer to turn to the people that I know are accomplished musicians in a band, composers I went to school with that were in the composition department, or some great DJ I know that can do electronic music but is a DJ in Las Vegas. I prefer to turn to people on a personal level, rather than turn to companies that do this type of music as their specialty. And that’s a personal choice.
That’s great to know. Most of my experience with music supervisors is with the advertising side. I know those guys go back to music houses quite often.
RR:
Yes. I would imagine that’s a majority of those kinds of companies’ business.
Yes. Overwhelmingly so. And that music is also overwhelmingly instrumental.
Let’s talk about the best way of getting your attention. I always tell people that it’s a very difficult thing for an artist with one, two, three or even ten albums to call up a music supervisor. My joke is always, “Hang on. I have to put you on hold, because I have Sony on the other line, and they have all of Western music.”
You’ve come up in the music business and have been at this for a while. If the roles were reversed, and you were a musician or a composer, how would you get through to people like you?
RR:
Like you said, it’s very tough. And it’s even more difficult when you’re an indie and are selling yourself. That’s why I personally think to gain traction, the best thing to do is to use an established pitch house to work your material. Because, those are the companies and people that are going to have an ongoing rapport with people like me, who will be looking for a great aggregator source that can funnel things, because I can depend on their sound and quality level. There are a bunch of pitch houses I turn to on a regular basis that represent indie labels, one-off individual artists. They all have their own process for how they vet and take on new clients.
That in and of itself is hard enough, because obviously companies like that have a huge roster of things they’re working. And there’s a lot to dig through with companies like Bank Robber, Terrorbird, Zync – I could go on and on.
Would you deem the ones you just named reputable?
RR:
Yes. For sure. It’s hard enough to gain the ear of someone in my shoes even going through those kinds of channels. But it’s much harder as an indie artist repping yourself and trying to make inroads. Because even if somebody like me has the best of intentions of seeking out and working with indie artists and keeping that door open, I’m still just constantly being inundated with material. And even with the best of intentions, I could never chip away at it all.
I was an A&R guy. You often feel like you’re sitting behind a desk where dreams go to die. That’s why I am no longer in A&R, because I couldn’t stand that my job was to destroy people’s dreams.
RR:
And I know how that feels. That’s what I always try not to do. I’m very much a music fan. I come out of the indie world and grew up with friends in bands. I know how hard it is to tread that path. I have the best of intentions. Unfortunately, you can only “Paula Abdul” things so much. I try to be encouraging and present a positive picture for indie artists, while still giving them the honest nuts and bolts. But at the end of the day it’s a hard road.
It’s very important that artists put things into perspective. And you want to be cordial and nice as a gatekeeper. But sometimes that can make people think they have an “in” with you. So, you want to be nice, but you can’t be too nice. It’s a strange thing, and it’s a hard thing to communicate that to people who are asking, “Well, isn’t your job to be nice?”
RR:
And as an artist, you’re one out of hundreds. Even if I have the best of intentions to listen, it’s physically impossible to listen to everything. I try and be encouraging with a huge, huge, huge dose of realism.
And people are going to continue to try. And they should. So, what do you look for in regards to the presentation? Are there “do”s and “don’t”s when it comes to the make-up of the solicitation email, the packaging, etc.?
RR:
The biggest turnoff is somebody who doesn’t have their own business and affairs in order. If you can’t be learned about the fundamentals of how to license your material to a supervisor, there are plenty of people who will not give you the time of day. It is not my job to teach you how to handle the business of your art. So, if I get something from somebody and talk to them, then realize they don’t understand anything about the concept of the ownership issues surrounding what they created – their own music publishing, whether or not they have co-writers, whether or not they’ve figured out their splits, all those nuts and bolts – unless I feel that I’ve found lightning in a bottle with an artist, I’m not compelled to go through the process of shepherding someone through the film and TV world. At the end of the day, everybody needs to be educated about how to manage their own art, even if they’re not trying to make inroads in the film and TV world. You need to understand the basics of how to exploit your music for your own betterment.
If you want to talk about specifics of presentation, so many of them are logical to me. Think about if you were on the flip side of the equation and were the person that was being inundated with music. The sheer volume of music that is coming into you via email with digital links and downloads, etc. – “Download this. Stream this. Click on this blog.” – is astounding. If you were in that boat, what would be the things that would make it difficult or undesirable for you to check something out? I’ve realized more and more that people don’t necessarily think about it that way.
If I’m going to get things digitally, I prefer the music to be sent to me via streaming links with the option to download. If I do find something interesting and go the extra mile to download it, I end up looking later in my downloads folder and have 300 things in zip files I haven’t even unzipped yet that I’m, in theory going to go through. Even with the best intentions, it’s a lot to chip away at. But if someone sends me a streaming link, I’m more inclined to click through, listen to it really fast, then maybe download one-off songs or a folder here and there that I think meets my needs. I’d rather not have to download a bunch of stuff that I think might not be right for me.
When somebody comes to you – and this could be even a Terrorbird or a Bank Robber – does having a reference to other stuff you’ve placed help? It would demonstrate that people have done their homework. But is it helpful when someone says, “I see that you used this in such and such a way, and that made me think you would be the person to talk to”? Does it help if they acknowledge they know the type of material you place?
RR:
Yeah. It obviously shows someone has done their due diligence to understand what is, in theory, right for me and the channel. E! has a very specific sound and style. And we’re actually in a period where we’re trying to expand that and open it up to a wider spectrum of sound than the spectrum we’re known for. But really, we have a very ingrained sense of what our channel is and what it’s about. So, when I encounter people that send me something that’s wildly off base from the kind of programming we do and the kind of audience we have, for better or worse, it reflects on how well they really know what I’m doing. If you haven’t done your homework to sell yourself, why would I go the extra mile to wade through the 10 tracks you sent me to find one potential track that might be right?
So, to answer your question, yes, letting me know you understand the type of material I place definitely shows you’ve gone the extra mile. We all work on lots of different things, of course. But sending something that is wildly off target and saying, “This would be perfect for you” is the fast road to “file 13” – the waste basket. Because, you clearly are spamming people.
Do you have any parting words of advice for artists?
RR:
If you’re an indie artist looking to approach film and television, I would say, first and foremost, know your business. Be educated. That’s helpful to me and to you. No one is going to look out for you more than you. So, before you even bother to try to engage with anybody on a business level, you should know your own business.
In terms of generalities of presentation, etc., we get such a cross section of material sent to us. You could dig around anywhere and find a ton of tips and tricks. And the thing that drives one person crazy could be someone else’s preferred method of reaching out. Everybody has their own little nuances of how they like to be pitched to, for lack of a better term.
That being said, there are some basic things to think about. Track listings are important. Make sure that if you’re sending someone a CD, the track titles are there. Meta data is hugely important. If I load your CD and the tracks come up as tracks 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and there’s no artist information or contact information or album title, it’s going to have to be the next best thing for me to bother to input meta data into iTunes so I can save it. If I pop something in the CD player and it comes up with no meta data these days, I usually just toss it. And it’s an oversight that somebody is not doing their general homework.
If you’re going to submit a CD without artwork – which is fine, because there are demos and things of that nature – still include a paper track listing on the CD case. A lot of people write their information on the CD itself, which is fine. But maybe I want to make note of a track and I can’t, because the track titles are on the CD that is in the player.
And by the sound of it, all these things happen quite frequently.
RR:
Yes. They’re rules of thumb for a reason.
There really are a ton of tips and tricks. Another one: If you’re going to email someone a cold email, don’t send MP3s. All you’re doing is clogging my inbox. If I don’t know you and have never made contact with you before, I may or may not even open a file that you send me, because you are a complete stranger, and you may be spamming me with a virus.
If you’re going to email someone cold and suggest someone listen to your material, don’t send five-albums worth. Send your three or four top songs and let someone get acquainted with the kinds of songs you have, then reach out to you to get your last five albums. Don’t inundate somebody right off the bat if you’re trying to make an initial impression.
There are a thousand ways to go about this process. And like I said, everyone has their own way of doing things and filtering through material. It’s really interesting to see how unprofessionally some people present themselves. And I know they obviously don’t mean to do that. But you only get one opportunity to make a first impression. And when you’re competing with a bunch of other first impressions, it’s very easy for the person you’re contacting to just move on.
To learn more about Rebecca Rienks and the work she does, visit her professional website or follow her on Twitter.
Deborah Mannis-Gardner is the President of DMG Clearances, Inc., a music clearance company that has been in business for over 15 years. A graduate of Emerson College, Deborah got her start in music working at Diamond Time in the early ‘90s alongside many other music sample pioneers. During her over 20-year career, she has worked with major labels including Atlantic Records, Sony Music, Capitol Records and Warner Bros. and has cleared samples for major artists such as John Legend, Lil Wayne, Lady Gaga, U2, Kid Rock and Beyonce. She has also done extensive work clearing music for film and television, working on movies like School of Rock and The Aviator and with studios like New Line Cinema, 20th Century Fox and Paramount Pictures. She is also the clearance agent for Rockstar Games – creators of the “Grand Theft Auto” series – and has worked as a consultant for EA Entertaiment, Activision and many other video game companies. Deborah also recently started a music library called Zah Muzickwerks! designed for DIY, indie and emerging artists looking to get their music placed by TV networks, film companies and video games looking for less expensive, artist-owned masters.
Deborah spoke to me recently about how the music and sample clearance industry has evolved throughout the past 20 years and how she has grown her own business. She also offered some advice for DIY artists that want to use samples or get their music placed in film, TV and video games and build successful careers.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, Deborah. Tell me how you first got into the music business.
DMG:
I started doing music videos. I went to Emerson College and was doing college radio and music videos. I started working on the music side of things at a company called Diamond Time, which was a clearance company. I fell into doing music and sample clearances because no one was really doing that. It was pretty much just Madeleine Smith on the West Coast handling all the gangsta rap. Her husband at the time was Dirty Don, and she was doing all the N.W.A. stuff. There was Hope Carr on the East Coast, and her husband was Larry coming out of Tommy Boy. And then there were a couple people dabbling in it, but there weren’t a lot of people doing it.
I wanted to do it, so I started working doing sample clearances in 1990-1991 and really loving the challenge of it. There weren’t really any rules to it. As people were doing clearances, they were creating the rules. When Madeleine and Hope were doing it, they were doing it for handshakes and t-shirts. Back then, we were getting James Brown screams for $500 buyouts. We were getting his “Hey, hey!” for $500. The world of clearances was totally different.
It’s how many years later now? And I’m still doing it. That genre of music is still strong. And it’s crossed over. It’s not considered “black music” or any specific genre of music anymore. It’s for any age, any race. Sampling isn’t just done within one genre of music. I’ve worked with U2, who have sampled. The B52’s have sampled. Michael Jackson even sampled.
You’ve done sample clearances for 20 years. So often, you’ll see artists run out and sample something they love and put it out there because, in the Internet Age, everything is open source. On the internet, you can just view, click and copy anything. People are under the impression that it’s easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission. Without someone like you paying to clear samples, does a DIY artist stand a chance of even getting his/her phone call taken by these record companies to clear samples?
DMG:
No. That’s why you need to hire people like me. I’m one of the few people left around that are still doing sample clearances. I love it, and I take on anyone. And I give free advice, because there are so many people that are trying to do things themselves. I give them guidance on what to do, see what their budgets are like or if they can replay something to eliminate the master costs. If musicians and artists can create something themselves, they should create it.
But sampling is an art. It’s like when you’re cooking and adding seasonings to something. Good and true sampling is when you’re adding elements of something in order to enhance it; it shouldn’t be the whole bed of the song. Although, some producers do that, and it works out as a good flavor. Salaam Remi, who I love as a producer, sometimes puts a little dash of a sample in it, and it just enhances a song. It’s incredible the way some of these guys do things.
As for the internet and going crazy, sampling something and putting it on YouTube and mixtapes, back in the day, mixtapes used to be something you sold from the trunk of your car; it was a lot more forgiving. Mixtapes are now sold on the internet, and it’s not as forgiving. The battle I’m having as a clearance agent is when someone is selling all these mixtapes that have samples in them. And then they try to release something legitimately with samples in it. And the publishers and record companies go and research the artist and say, “You know what? We’re not going to clear the samples until you back clear something you sampled on your mixtape and didn’t get permission on.”
Musician Coaching:
Let me guess. When you go and back clear something, that costs a lot more money.
DMG:
Is there a penalty cost? Sometimes there is and sometimes there isn’t. As a good clearance agent, I try for there to not be too much of a back penalty. Sometimes you try to see how many units were sold and try to limit it to that. It depends on who the artist is, but you don’t want it to be a huge amount. What you try to determine is, what the extent of the sample is and what the value is. And then you pay for the cost based on the use and the units sold.
I don’t want you to give too much information away for free, but are there certain things that are just unclearable that people should stay away from?
DMG:
Sure. There are certain artists that do not allow their material to be sampled at all. There are artists that even if they respect the artists that have sampled them will not let their material be sampled. Anita Baker is someone I respect so much, because she’s even had artists she is friends with come to her and say, “Come on. We’re friends … Please?” And she’ll say, “I’m sorry. I can’t do it. Because if I do it for you, it means that I’d have to do it for other people, and I don’t want to be sampled.” She doesn’t want the music to be used differently from how she initially created it. As an artist, that’s how she chooses how her material is seen or used.
There are other artists that have had their careers reborn because of sampling: Syl Johnson; Johnny Guitar Watson, before his passing. There are quite a few guys. And then there are great guys like Hamilton Bohannon, who has been sampled and still has his career going because of it. There are a lot of people who have done well by being sampled, because it’s revived their career and brought back their music. Obviously compact discs, then MP3s helped. But prior to that, these guys weren’t receiving any revenue, because their stuff was lost, and no one was using it anymore. If you think about it, brought back James Brown.
Musician Coaching:
Sure. And it brought back Sly and the Family Stone, Parliament and Funkadelic …
DMG:
And Barry White and all those people. And then there are some purists. Led Zeppelin doesn’t want to be sampled. But Led Zeppelin is even hard to clear for use in movies. When we did School of Rock, it was very hard to get that music cleared, just for synchronization purposes.
Somewhere along the line, you also picked up synchronization licenses for movies, TV, video games, etc.
DMG:
I work on movies. And I handle all the Rockstar games projects. I’m working on the new “Grand Theft Auto 5” right now. I also do clearances for shows that are part of BET’s programming. Then, I work with the film studios. That started because everyone was concerned about the clearances of the hip hop and rap samples being used in their films. It really isn’t difficult. I know where a lot of the bones are buried, so it makes it really easy for me. I also do music clearances for commercials.
Obviously it sounds like you’re working with a lot of the upper-echelon, name-brand artists. In terms of the DIY and emerging artists that come through you, what are the ones that are succeeding at getting their music placed in film and TV doing right? I get so many of these artists coming to me and saying, “Can you help me get my music placed?” And I usually have to say, “No, I can’t.” There’s so much cold calling, and at any given time you’re competing against Sony, who has everything you can imagine available. It’s a tough thing.
DMG:
It is a tough thing. And it is a lot of cold calling, but it can be done. We worked on a video game called “Pop Star,” and they were looking for unknown guitar bands. We got a bunch of unsigned, unknown guitar bands. And one of the bands we chose – a local band here in Delaware – ended up being the band you had to beat in that game. And that’s how I started up a company called Zah Muzickwerks!, a company my son named. It’s a music library. And we’re actually just populating right now. The whole purpose of it was to look for small local people who write their own material. Hopefully by the beginning of 2012, we’re going to get it out to TV networks, film companies and video games that are looking for less expensive, more easily cleared, artist-owned masters to be used as fillers. Because stuff is getting so expensive these days. I set it up so it’s not just the music – it also has lyrics. Sometimes people like to put songs in based on lyrics. A lot of HBO shows do that. So, I did it with lyrics and feeling and instruments and BPMs and all those other details.
Going back to that local Delaware band – what did they do right in terms of making themselves easy to find?
DMG:
First of all, they knew me.
Fair enough. I sat behind the desk where dreams go to die for a very long time as an A&R guy, and I had my own policies when it came to artists approaching me. Is there a right way and a wrong way to approach you when an artist is going in cold?
DMG:
Anyone can send me an e-mail. I don’t turn anyone away. Sometimes people will send me an e-mail and just say, “What do you think of this song?” I respond by saying, “I’m not A&R, but I can tell you what I think.” For example, some guy sent me a really great song. But it sounded just like Green Day. And I said, “It’s really good, but you have to come up with your own style.” But anyone that wants us to put their music in our music library, giving them the chance that someone else will listen to it for use, we don’t charge anyone. But if their music gets picked, we get a percentage of the money they would receive.
I know this is really hard to ballpark, because there’s so much context that figures into it. But, people call me all the time and say, “Rockstar Games or True Blood just called me, and they want to use a little bit of my music as an interstitial.” How do people know what they should be charging? Are there any “absolutely do not do” deals?
DMG:
That relates to the other company that I’m working with. I have a business partner, and we have a boutique company where we administer publishing. We charge a small administration fee and handle that for their clients. And if they own their own publishing, we can help them with that. We have some big names like Redman and Keith Ross. But it’s run by a friend of mine, Deborah Evans. And she has years of experience. The reason I partnered up with her is because there are so many little guys out there that don’t know how to handle those requests, or have a small percentage of a song by Rihanna, Pitbull or Eminem and don’t know how to collect their mechanicals outside of the U.S., or don’t know if their song is being used in a TV show, and if someone forgot to request their five percent. That’s why I wanted to get into the world of publishing administration – to help those people out.
It’s a pretty important issue. I’ve set it up with her so we have publishing administration worldwide, because it’s important to be able to collect all over the world. The whole basis of everything I do is that I want to help people in the music industry. My fees and everything I do are based on flat fees or a percentage, just so everyone knows what my costs are. It’s all about giving advice and truly helping people.
As someone who provides such a wide range of services pertaining to publishing and placement, what are the top handful of things aspiring or younger musicians need to know about?
DMG:
They have to make a decision: Do they just want to be a musician and create music, and then have someone handle the business side of things … or do they want to do it all? I’ve just recently expanded even further where I’m now handling an artist out of South Africa and bringing him over to the United States in January. And he has taken the position where he wants to understand the business side of things, but he wants me to handle the business aspects in the beginning. So, if you’re an artist, it’s important that you understand registering as song, copyright, etc. And if you don’t know how to do these things, find someone else to do it. My artist in South Africa has done a single, and I’ve been able to get it into my friend’s new iTunes app. Then, I was able to cross promote it so his song was on iTunes through CD Baby. And now we’re going to be doing a music video. And I’m doing all this set up stuff before I decide which label I’m going to shop the music to or if I even want to shop it to a label. I have to gauge what technology is doing, and whether labels are even the way to go based on changes that are happening within the industry. You have to sit down and really follow the business and know what’s going on.
Or, you need to decide that you’re going to spend your energy booking gigs and getting fans. It’s hard to wear all those hats and be the artist that creates the art.
If you were 20-years old again and a musician just starting out, but you knew what you now know thanks to your experience, which hats would you choose to wear?
DMG:
If I were a creative artist, I would find that one person that I could trust and maybe even do a contract with that person to do my business for me. And I’d give that person a percentage of the money I’m going to make.
To learn more about Deborah Mannis-Gardner and the work she does with artists looking for help with music clearance and music publishing, visit the DMG Clearances, Inc. website.
Art Munson is the founder of Music Library Report, a comprehensive directory of music libraries and services for composers and songwriters designed to help them make educated decisions about choosing to which music libraries they should submit their work. With nearly five decades of playing, songwriting and producing experience, Art got his start in the music industry playing guitar with Dick Dale and the Deltones in the 1960s. He has done studio and live work with artists such as the Righteous Brothers, John Lennon, Billy Joel, Barbra Streisand and Paul Williams. In the 1980s he built and ran his own home recording studio where he worked with artists such as David Sandborn and Vonda Shepard. In the past decade, he has been involved in writing hundreds pieces of music for production music libraries which have been placed in a variety of films and television shows. He and his wife Robin also run their own small record label, publishing and production company called Munsong Records.
I recently got to sit down with Art and talk about his long career in the music industry, how Music Library Report works for composers and songwriters and how artists can choose music libraries that will be good fits for their work.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Art. How did you get into the music industry, and what led you to start MusicLibraryReport.com?
AM:
Well, it’s a long story, because I’m a lot older than you are. I started out back in the early ‘60s playing with Dick Dale and the Deltones. He’s kind of the originator of surf music.
Oh, I’m very familiar. I’m a frustrated New York surfer.
AM:
Well, that was my first band, and I played with them at the Rendezvous Ballroom and all those places out in California. I was actually in the Marine Corps and was hanging out down there. I met him and started playing with him. After a year or so with him, one of the guys in the band said, “Come on and sit in with these two guys in Santa Ana.” And at first I didn’t take him up on it. But then I decided to sit in, and it turned out to be the Righteous Brothers. And when they made it, I was in their band. I went around and played clubs with them for a few years. Then, I moved to L.A. and got into doing studio work. I did a lot of studio work throughout the ‘70s.
In the early ‘80s, I built my own recording studio in a house I had in L.A. and started renting that out. And I taught myself how to engineer. Through all that, I’ve always been a writer and a producer.
Have you had any brushes with other successes while in the studio or in your own personal studio?
AM:
As a studio musician, I worked with all kinds of people, everybody from John Lennon to Billy Joel. I played on Billy Joel’s first album and John Lennon’s Rock ‘n’ Roll album. I also played with Barbra Streisand and a lot of other big names.
In terms of my own studio, it was mainly a demo studio. But I got a few people in there that were notable. I produced a bunch of things with Vonda Shepard on her first album. I also worked with Brenda Russell and David Sandborn. I did that for about 10 years and did a lot of producing, writing and engineering. Through the ‘90s, I started an internet business. But I’ve always been writing songs. I moved to Nashville for a while with my wife. We wrote a lot of country music down there, and didn’t really have any success. But we did write a lot of songs. We came back to California in the 2000s.
In 2005, through a friend, we got a gig writing for a TV production company that was looking for music. That was my first entrée into writing production music. For me, I really like it because I had my fill with playing in studios and bands. I love the concept of sitting in a room writing music and sending it out to the world. This production company was in Philadelphia. And we were in L.A. We would write the stuff and send it off to them. We made a little money off it, and we started to learn about writing for TV shows. We didn’t write for episodic TV. I’m not into writing for episodic TV, because I don’t like the stress. I like the low-key atmosphere of writing library music. You can write when you want, whatever you feel like writing. I wrote for that company, which got me into that world.
I started searching online for music libraries and ran across FMPro news group and learned more about libraries by reading through their materials. And I got into a couple libraries. Then, one day in 2009 I was at a yoga class, and it just hit me that there was no directory – there was no central location for all these music libraries that were popping up, nor was there one for the ones that had been around for years. I had built a bunch of WordPress sites, so I thought I could do this pretty fast. I knew a few libraries, and the gal over at FMPro gave me a list of about 80 music library sites. I put the word out on a bunch of composer and songwriter forums.
I actually first came across you at Harmony Central. I post on there and check in there once in a while. And I said, “This is something I have to check out.” You had just started.
AM:
That’s right. By putting the word out, a lot of people started coming to the site and suggesting libraries to put up there. It’s been building over time. It’s reached a plateau in terms of the number of people that visit. I’d say for a while the average was about 300 unique visitors per day. I turned it into a subscription site for just the music library part, so it’s dropped down about a third. It probably averages around 200 people per day. But that’s fine. I tried putting advertising on it and tried donations. It’s not that I’m looking to get rich off this thing. It just started to bug me that people would come, take all the information and never contribute anything. So, I set it up so people can earn access to get to the library listings – and a lot of the site is still free and will remain free, like the general information sections. But, people can earn access to the library listings or they can pay a fee for a week or a month. I actually give away a lot to people that get on and comment a lot and contribute. I have no problem giving people access. But my biggest gripe was that it felt kind of thankless. There were a lot of people saying, “Atta boy! Great job.” But I didn’t like people coming on there and not contributing. I would like people to be involved and stay involved. And if they do that, I have no problem letting them have free access.
Are you still writing music for television on your own? Is that your primary business?
AM:
Yes. It’s not something I really need to do. But I love writing, and if I can make some money at it and get to the point where it can be a “living wage,” I’d be happy with that. But it’s not there yet. A lot of it is that I’m not into writing weird, quirky stuff. I’ve done that in years past. I just write mainstream stuff. And there is a lot of stuff out there.
What have you discovered about modern music libraries while witnessing thousands of people congregating to talk about them?
AM:
There are hundreds of libraries out there, and there are more coming every day. And there are a few dying every day too. You have to break it down. There are two or three different types of sites. If you’re talking about getting music into film and TV, there’s the aspect of being an artist and getting your song – you as an artist singing – on Grey’s Anatomy. I’m not really interested in that, because my approach to music doesn’t fit in there. I’m interested in production music. So, now you have libraries that are placing instrumental music. And you have the ones that are concentrating on placing instrumental music on TV, and then you have the royalty free sites. That’s kind of a misnomer because they’re not really royalty free; you pay a one-time sync license fee to use the music. But when it goes to broadcast – generally speaking – the client is expected to file cue sheets, and then whoever broadcasts it (the network) has to pay the performance rights organizations.
There are a few royalty free sites that basically say, “You buy the music, you can use it anywhere.” But it gets a little tricky there. If someone goes to a royalty free site and buys the music, and it ends up on any network that has a deal with BMI or ASCAP or any of the pros, they’re going to have to file a cue sheet so the writer can be paid performance royalties. It’s just that they will not have to pay a sync license fee again. Lots of times, license fees run for a certain amount of time. And then if the client wants to reuse the music, they have to repay the license fee.
And royalty free music libraries cater to people who are doing corporate videos, wedding videos and other videos that will probably never get broadcast publicly. Although, sometimes they do get broadcast. I had one that was purchased on a royalty free site and showed up on ESPNU, which is the college sports network. And they didn’t really have the rights to use it. Because I have a Tunesat account, which detects music that is being used 24/7, I discovered it. I went to them and said, “Hey, you’re not allowed to use this music like you did. Pay me.” And they did.
Do you recommend getting a Tunesat account?
AM:
I do. But it doesn’t make sense if you don’t have a lot of stuff out there. That one fee I got was $1,500, which paid for a couple years of Tunesat. It was well worth it from my point of view.
Beyond royalty free libraries, you have music libraries that are just trying to get music placed in film and on TV shows. In my opinion, if you work for the royalty free sites, you’re never going to make much money out of it. One of the guys on MLR is the #1 seller on one of the bigger royalty free sites. He said that last year he made $21,000 for a year’s worth of songs. It’s a huge site, and they have hundreds of thousands of tracks. And he’s the best-selling artist on the site. It’s nice to make that. But that’s not a living wage. And he has a lot of other music in a lot of other places. That’s really how it works: You have to have literally 1,000-2,000 tracks out there in a few different places working for you before you can really make money. There’s another guy on Music Library Report (MLR) who said he made $160,000 last year. And he has 2,000 tracks spread all over the place.
I know a lot of people say, “Don’t spread it too thin, because you don’t want your one piece of music pitched for multiple opportunities.”
AM:
And that’s what I was going to say. To a point, you want it spread out. You don’t want it over-saturating the market so that everyone is hearing it and says, “I don’t want music from this person, because they are everywhere.” So, to a point, you have to pick your libraries you’re going to work with. And as this one person has said, he gives different libraries different types of music. What he’s learned over ten years of doing it is that there are certain libraries that work well with a certain type of genre, and that’s what they get from him.
I work with a couple libraries that pitch to TV, and they are doing a decent job for me; music is getting on the air constantly. And I know this because of my Tunesat account. There is stuff every day on there – 10-50 uses. I can see it’s building. Then I have two or three royalty free sites that sell okay. I’m not going to get rich off those – maybe a couple hundred bucks per month. On some of these sites, I’m probably up to, on average, a couple hundred tracks. I’m far from 1,000-2,000 tracks. I’ll probably die before I get to that point. I write every day at my own pace. I’m at an age where I’m not consumed by doing this. I’ve been the consumed person who lived and breathed music and had to get up at eight in the morning and work until midnight. I don’t do that anymore.
But I’ve learned from MLR that most people who are doing this spend about 10-15 hours working on a cue. There was a thread that popped up about that, and the consensus was that people spend anywhere from 10-15 hours on average spread out over a few days. If you’re producing something really orchestrated, it’s going to take longer. Maybe you work four-five hours per day over three days. And that’s about how I work too. And it was good for me, because I didn’t know where I was, but it confirmed I was in the same place. That’s the great thing about these forums: People are talking about how they approach their music, the success they’re having and how they work. I cruise through it for three or four hours every day, and every few days, I get a new cue.
As someone who has been a successful working musician for decades, is there anything you did correctly that a majority of people that didn’t make it didn’t do?
AM:
It’s a lot of luck. It’s being at the right place at the right time. I have witnessed tons of incredibly talented musicians that just don’t get anywhere. I’ve told Dick Dale this many times: “If it wasn’t for you, I would’ve never been in this business.” I was from Connecticut, I joined the Marine Corps. I didn’t want to be stationed in California; I wanted to stay on the East Coast. They made me come to California. And I was stationed in Santa Ana, which was an air facility that has since closed. When I got to California, I said, “This is heaven. I love this place.” I started driving around and ended up in Balboa, and I saw this Dick Dale playing in an ice cream parlor and thought, “Wow. This is really cool music. I’ve never heard anything like this before.” I used to go and watch him at the Rendezvous Ballroom.
I’d always been in bands. Even my dad was in a square dance band; they stayed together for 50 years playing. And my mom was a singer. Before I started playing with Dick, he had opened a record store where I was staying on the Balboa Peninsula. And I would go in there – and I’m pretty shy – and I would walk around and not say anything. I knew who he was. One day I got up the nerve and said, “I play a little guitar.” And he said something that changed my life: “I have to go play at this club tonight. My guitar player is under age. Do you want to come play?” I went in and played with him, and he said he wanted me to be in the band. And he said, “My dad says I can’t pay you.” And at that point, I didn’t care. I just wanted to be in a band.
I was still in the Marine Corps, sneaking away from the base. I was going AWOL so I could play shows with the band. And then they shipped me overseas. And at one point Dick said, “Let’s break your leg so you won’t have to go over.” He was going to run over my leg’ we were seriously considering it. But I decided I really couldn’t do that. I came back from overseas, and Dick said, “I still can’t pay you.” Eventually I got back in the band, and he did pay me.
I was in the right place at the right time, caught a wave. And that’s just often how it happens. Another example of that is that I was planning to move to L.A. and playing with Bill Medley. I was still living in Orange County and playing with him in San Francisco in 1979, and Paul Williams came into the club. And Paul said, “Call me when you move to L.A.” because he had just started having hits as a writer. He wrote a whole bunch of hits for The Carpenters in the ‘70s, like We’ve Only Just Begun. Paul said, “I’m going to start to play in L.A., so when you move there, look me up.” I moved, and about a year later, he called me. I became his guitar player for about five years. And that’s how I worked on the Barbra Streisand film A Star is Born and also played on her album and did a couple movies with Paul. And it started because I was with Bill Medley in a club in San Francisco, and Paul Williams just happened to walk in.
So, a lot of it is luck. And of course you have to have a little bit of talent. But there are better guitar players out there than me now, and there were then too. And it’s about showing up at the job too. I was never into drugs. I always showed up and always showed up early.
I certainly don’t have your track record, but I was a working bass player on and off for a few years. When people asked me how, I said, “I showed up sober and on time.” And even if all I could do was pedal eighth notes, that’s all there was to the gig.
AM:
That’s right. A lot of times, it’s not really required you play very much, especially on pop songs. You just have to be able to read a chord chart. And I never learned how to read music. I could read chord charts, but that was pretty much it. A lot of times it wasn’t required. Unfortunately, I did get into some scary situations. One of the gigs I had was a double album with Burt Bacharach and the Houston Symphony. He called me for a few sessions. And his stuff is pretty difficult. He writes in a lot of weird time signatures. He had the cream of L.A. as a rhythm section. We had a horn section, percussionists, and we rehearsed here in L.A. for a couple weeks. I was learning the parts. And we went to Houston to record with an 80-piece symphony. And I felt really out of my element.
Finally, there was a contractor who used to call me for movie dates. And that was the worst one, because they used to just throw the music down and say, “Okay, let’s record.” And I finally stopped taking those, because they just stressed me out. I wanted those easy gigs where you do one song every three hours and get to go over it ten times before you record it.
I think, as you said, it’s about showing up and being sober. And also I think having a good attitude is more important than anything else. And also being able to deliver a certain amount of goods is critical.
Also, you have to be able to get out into the scene a little bit. I know when I was living in Orange County, I used to go sit in at clubs. And you’d go out, sit in, and people would see you. You have to be out in the scene. I’m not going to be doing that at my age. And it really pays to be in a major center like L.A. or New York.
Your perspective is a very unique one because of Music Library Report and all the work you’ve done throughout the years. In a general way, if you can sum it up, how do you recommend people source the music library aggregators that are right for them?
AM:
I don’t think there’s any way to really tell that. Check out all the music libraries and listen to what they have. And send some an email introducing yourself, and maybe try to present something they don’t have in their library. If you have 10,000 tracks of hip hop, sending more hip hop tracks is probably not going to get you very far. But you might have some other genres they’re looking for. You can email them and say, “Is there anything particular you’re looking for?” And when you contact these sites, I think you have to have something to show them.
Another thing that comes up on MLR is that people say, “Write in your strongest genre.” I don’t buy that one. Maybe it’s because I’ve had a lot of experience playing in a lot of different bands. But, I want to do Latin music, I want to do surf, country. And I do it. Thankfully, my wife comes from a different musical background, and one I would consider to be a more legitimate than mine; she comes from Broadway and really has those chops. So, we get to write all kinds of stuff, from ragtime, to Broadway-ish stuff. I might not be able to do it as well as people who are really trained in it. But I love the challenge of it. And I’ve been able to do different styles. There are really no hard and fast rules to it.
Maybe the best thing I could say is, “Write what you really love to write.” And there are some parameters to follow with library music. You should have editable music, so the music editor can make really clear edit points. It might be a nice, strong intro that’s no more than four-bars long so you can get right into it. Or, when you have an ABA or an AABA section they don’t really need to be longer than a minute and 30 seconds – two minutes. Some guy on the boards was making a point and said, “If you listen to some of my intros, they’re not very musical, but they’re very editable.” Let’s say you had a clean break at the end of the A section; you wouldn’t have that in a regular song. But in terms of library music, that gives a clean transition into the next section if they wanted to use it. Or maybe your lead-in to the next has an editing point that’s so strong, it can pass as an introduction to that section.
And I fight with that editable point too. Because I want to write songs that are musical and have a nice flow to them. And there’s a place for that also. As I said, there are really no hard and fast rules. But I do try to pay attention to really strong edit points, so that music editor can get in and out cleanly.
Is there any advice you have for people that just have their original work and aren’t looking to compose for film and TV?
AM:
There is certainly a place for those too. Many of the libraries will take that also.
Are there certain conditions that specific libraries are looking for that aren’t the norm that you would recommend artists avoid?
AM:
I’m a firm believer in never giving up anything. And I’m also a firm believer in not signing long-term contracts. I wouldn’t give anything away in an exclusive agreement unless they’re going to pay for it. But, the couple times I have done it, I put a clause in there that it’s not any longer than two years. There’s a reversion clause that it comes back to me if it hasn’t earned a certain amount of money within those two years. My rule for production music – and I’m not talking about artistic music – is $800 – $1,000 for a piece of music. If it hasn’t earned that within those two years, then it comes back to you. And should set it so it just automatically revert back to you, so you don’t have to send them a letter asking for it back.
To learn more about Art Munson and his work, visit Music Library Report. You can also read more about his label and his background on the Munsong Records website.
William Richter is the co-founder, along with Daniel Lessner, of Skanda Music, a music production house. Their collaboration has resulted in a catalog of over 1,200 tracks for feature films, sports, television and commercials. Will got his start in the music industry after graduating from Berklee College of Music, where he studied Music Composition and Film Scoring. From 1995-2002, he wrote scores for many TV movies and independent films. He eventually began producing music for commercials, and won several CLIO Awards for his work. His music can be heard in over 100 theatrical trailers and international commercials. He started Skanda Music in 2006.
I recently got to sit down with Will and talk about how he got started in the industry, the process of building and marketing such a large catalog of music and some advice he has for artists that want to get their music placed in film and television.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Will. How did you end up in the music business?
WR:
After I finished high school, I went to the Berklee College of Music. There I mostly studied composition. And when I got out of school in 1996, I would say that was the first time music was starting to really be affected by computers. I was fortunate enough to know the computer program Finale. So, my first gigs were all working in music preparation. That was a great training ground. Every day I was able to see orchestras recording on stages out here in L.A. – guys like Danny Elfman, John Williams and Basil Poledouris all doing their thing at Sony and Fox. I got a sense of how those guys dealt with producers and directors to deliver film scores. This led to some of my own work. I was scoring for TV movies and independent films. From about 1995-2002, I was doing a lot of work in those fields.
Then I had an abrupt turn. I started doing work more in commercials. I was offered some work from a commercial house that was based in both New York and L.A. It’s a very full-time pursuit to deliver on the schedule that those houses demand. It shifted me away from doing a lot of film work into doing commercial work. In that field I did work for a lot of big, heavy-hitter clients and won a bunch of CLIO awards. I stayed with them from about 2002-2007.
At that time, I had another little independent venture going that was suddenly coming to fruition. In 2004, I had started working with another composer friend, and we started putting out independent tracks that the publishers were using to try to find work in trailers and on television. We started seeing some good returns back from that investment. Those things were starting to take off.
So, you just put together a teaser library that eventually got you better work?
WR:
Yeah. With all the commercial work, it was the sort of thing where it was great money and great business. I was happy with all that, but I wanted to do independent music too. These recordings of independent tracks that I’d do on my own or that I do with my partner Daniel now for Skanda Music started to take off. We had a number of really good placements and it was the sort of thing where I could leave commercials and start working independently to produce library tracks that were getting good work.
That’s great. Is that where your business is today?
WR:
Absolutely. If you go to our website, you’ll see that in the last month alone, we’ve had placements for Showtime and HBO. We also did a big campaign for the History Channel when they launched their new high def network. One of our tracks became their promo piece to announce that. We’ve had some pieces that have gone in trailers. Every day it’s a different thing. We never know which place we’re going to land in. But we have a very steady line with about three publishers that we cater our tracks to that have been getting all this kind of work I’ve been describing.
Our music is big, dramatic overtures. It’s John Williams meets Hans Zimmer kind of drama music with big orchestras.
Speaking of Hans Zimmer, I’ve heard that when you see his name on a piece of music, it’s actually him and 50 other musicians, including yourself from time to time.
WR:
Yes. To be perfectly honest, his method of doing things is certainly to have a number of guys that are working. My personal involvement has been down the chain from what he’s doing. He has his own team of guys he works with. So, what you’re saying is true. There are several bits of music I’ve done where I’ve worked with one of his guys – a guy named Michael Levine. I worked with him on a number of cues on the side. But that type of work hasn’t been the main focus of what I’ve been doing.
Right. I just thought that was interesting. It’s certainly a great name to be affiliated with.
WR:
Yeah. I did work with him on Matchstick Men and Black Hawk Down. Those were the credit pieces I got that were with Remote Control Studios, which is his whole operation. Most of what I’ve been doing is something that’s been independent, and my own thing.
I understand. It sounds like you’ve come to a place where you’re able to wake up in the morning and make music. And you have relationships in place where you have people out there pitching it and getting it placed. That’s where a lot of people dream of being. But most people wind up starting by having to pitch their own music. What are some best practices for getting music placed?
WR:
We focus mostly on trying to have our own unique sound. We found that has led to relationships with both producers and editors that we regularly have a line of communication with. As an example, about a year ago we sold that track to the History Channel. We tracked down the editor and said, “Thanks so much for placing us in what you’re doing. Here’s the latest of what we’ve been doing.” And we sent them our newsletter. And those guys have gone out and are finding further work for our tracks in a number of other History Channel shows. We try to listen to what they are in need of and provide a little bit of what people are asking for while still sticking to the dramatic tone of our tracks.
There are so many Berklee grads I know who wind up doing five-second licks and selling a guitar to someone at Sam Ash. What about you, your music and your pitches has made you succeed where a lot of other people did not?
WR:
I think a lot of my own music reflects honestly what I see out there as an artist and my philosophy about life. My tracks are not always universal. They have a very specific moment where they will be needed. But when it’s that moment, it’s something special. I think there’s a no-holds-barred approach with our music. We really go for something that is both intellectually and emotionally satisfying. It’s quite a lot to swallow at any given moment. But when it’s time to really push the envelope, we’re right there.
What about on the business side? Clearly you’ve done something right when it comes to marketing yourself and building relationships.
WR:
“Always under promise and over deliver.” It’s basically that. It’s the sort of thing where I know in order to deliver something that really sounds great, it’s never good to have the deadline in your head. I remain ambiguous about when I’m going to deliver it. And when something is actually done and artistically at the point where I think it’s at its best, then it’s time to go and offer it to a client, put it on the market and try to go with it. I think a lot of times publishers will say, “We’re looking to release our next ‘action’ music CD in the fall.” And I’ll think, “Yeah. Sure. But that doesn’t mean I’ll have my best ‘action’ work done by then. We take the very best music and try to do it on our own time and our own schedule. Then, when it’s ready, they get it.
You’re clearly in a place where a lot of these relationships are thriving. A lot of the people who approach me are people who are just trying to get started in the music industry. Obviously the music has to be great. But from a business perspective, if you’re thinking back on the experience of making your first set of contacts, what advice do you have for people in terms of just finding someone that will be receptive to their work?
WR:
When I first began, I remember it was the industry practice that most of the publishers or licensing houses were offering was a 50/50 split of publishing rights. That’s a very good rate to start with. These people are going to put some time forward and try to get your music marketed. It’s a great place to get your first few shots. I personally waited a little too long to renegotiate; somewhere in the range of four or five years in I was still taking that cut with some of these publishers. And I didn’t even realize it was the sort of thing you can renegotiate. After a while, you can go in and say, “You’ve made more money with us. Now our share should be greater.” I think my advice would be just to be aware where a good starting place is and then where to go from there. And that was my own mistake. I spent a couple years in that transition window and then suddenly realized I needed to make a change when the BMI statements were coming in. I didn’t really think that much of it until someone told me I could ask for a bit more.
You’ve mentioned working with multiple publishers. Do you have a publishing deal in place?
WR:
Yes. My partner and I work with three different publishing houses. I use different publishers for different types of tracks, because each one is good at marketing and selling a different kind of music. We take whatever tracks we have and try to get them with the best publisher who seems to have the right place to put them.
I know you’re doing music that’s very orchestral – music that’s well arranged and uses multiple instruments. It’s very different from music made by four dudes in flannel shirts. Most people have one publishing deal and then are stuck relying on that film and TV placement house. Do you still own all of your own publishing and then just strike administration deals? How does that work?
WR:
Sometimes we take deals with these different companies and are actually being hired on commission. They say, “We want X percentage.” We show some early sketches of what we’re working on, they show an interest, and then we strike up a deal from there. Other times it’s a track that has been completed, we sign a deal with someone for a year or two, and after that time, those guys haven’t done anything with it. So, we pick it up, move it over, play it for someone else and try to move it around a little bit.
The reason I’m pausing on it so much is because I come mostly from a straight rock ‘n’ roll background. And in that world, you did a deal with one publisher, and that was it. But it seems like that’s never how it has worked for you, which is great.
WR:
I work with one other guy closely. Skanda is half myself and half another guy named Dan Lessner. Both of us had our own relationships with our own publishers when we started working together. And he’s ASCAP, I’m BMI. That’s great, because we can use the both sides to work to our advantage. That’s been the attitude we’ve independently maintained: Nobody owns us. We’re going to do our track, we’re going to see who is selling what where, and put what we have in the right place at the right time. The catalog we have is somewhere around 1,200 tracks. We like to promote our biggest, grandest things and put them forward on our site. But we also have hundreds of background cues that work in reality television and similar places.
And quite literally, you built this network of contacts one by one and by over promising and under delivering, as you stated.
WR:
That’s what we’ve tried to do. Absolutely. The other part of this is what I was describing before: Any time we find we’ve gotten a placement, we do a little bit of Googling and some IMDB’ing and send a follow-up to the editor saying, “Thanks for placing us. Here’s our catalog and here’s what we do.” We function independently and try to nurture those relationships in that way.
Similarly, I’m sure if you felt like you had something for a given show or movie, but you didn’t have a relationship with anyone attached to it, you could go in on a cold call as well.
WR:
Yes. For example, we make a habit of calling the sports teams each season. We have had music that has been used both as sports shows’ themes and as the bumper for teams in the NBA and for Major League Baseball – for the Tampa Bay Rays, Phoenix Suns, St. Louis Cardinals. Every year, we call all the teams and send them our press update kit. Every season there’s at least one bite that makes the few days we spend on the campaign every year trying to reach all these people and sell them our music worth it.
What would you tell someone who was just starting out in music to be careful of?
WR:
These days, it’s such a competitive industry. It’s so hard. There are so many things to think about. I would say the biggest would be to try to be wary of catering to the industry too much. Be true to your own artistry and really capture that within your music and have the confidence to sell it in that way. Dan and I get together and are good at inspiring each other in that way. And we try to capture that spirit of encouraging each other in the music. You should do whatever it takes to make you strong in that way and able to take on the whole industry.
To learn more about William Richter and his work, you can visit the Skanda Music website.
Nikki Hirsch is the Director of Music Strategy and Alliances at Translation, LLC – a branding and advertising agency that handles clients such as McDonalds, Target, State Farm, HP and Wrigley’s among others. Prior to being at Translation Nikki was a product manager at Atlantic Records and the Capitol Music Group where she handled artists like Uncle Kracker, Korn, The Click Five, Meatloaf, Fountains of Wayne and K.T. Tunstall.
Nikki, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today. Tell me about which clients you are currently working with at Translation.
NH:
The four who are current clients are McDonalds, Wrigley’s, State Farm and Target. I’m working on multiple projects for all of them right now.
So you have been in marketing for over ten years and have seen both the product side and the music side of the playing field. Has the way that brands engage with music changed?
NH:
About 15 years ago and more there was a negative perception when artists were aligning themselves with brands. I don’t think it was received well by fans and the public. You didn’t see a lot of big branded initiatives the way you see them now. I think with the industry being in the state it’s in and sales being down more than 54% in ten years you’re seeing a climate where artists and labels are more reliant on brands than ever. I think that notion has trickled down to the consumer and fan where they are a lot more accepting of artist endorsements today. That’s not to say everyone is accepting of it. I think there are some musical purists out there who will dump an artist when they see them aligning with a brand but I think it becomes fewer when that alignment has authenticity and doesn’t feel forced. I think it’s just becoming more widely accepted by fans because they realize that sometimes you need the brand dollars to get the music into your iPod. I think we’re seeing it become a lot more acceptable and that the stigma has been removed.
Can you tell me more specifically what the actual brand – music engagement looked like several years ago? What did brands used to do with artists and was it efficient?
NH:
I think the endorsements they were doing were largely before I was getting into the business. Because when I started in 1999, the Internet was in a position where it was really starting to change everything. Prior to that you saw a lot of tour sponsorships. That was probably the mainstay once you got past the traditional artist endorsement, like Pepsi and Michael Jackson, where Michael Jackson was featured in the commercials. I think the broadcast component and the tour sponsorship component were the main pathways through which brands utilized artists. You saw banners on stage scrims and signage on stadiums, which you still see today, but we try to stay away from it because it’s a little “cookie cutter.” You saw a lot of shallow integration back then. You didn’t see the type of campaign we recently did with Chris Brown and Doublemint. In that campaign Chris remade a vintage jingle and practically turned it into a brand new song. The song was then promoted in a way that it wasn’t obviously associated with the brand. Only after the song was out there in pop culture was the association made know. You also never saw anything innovative online because music didn’t exist online. “Online” was barely a word.
You’ve already touched on sponsored content or branded content which I was going to ask you about. Is branded content the prime example of the deeper engagement you mentioned, or does it look different in different cases?
NH:
I think it’s one of the ways we’re seeing brands work with music. They say content is king. It’s always a large component of every deal we put together, because that’s what the brand wants. Everyone is trying to get their hands on something exclusive, some kind of visual or video or song element that the consumer can’t get just by buying the record or going to see the artist perform on their standard tour. Content is playing a big role and has been in the past ten years but even more so now. Now we’re diving deeper than content. Now it’s that content is a given, it is about what can we do above and beyond that is new and groundbreaking and has never been done before.
What then does modern brand engagement with music looks like? I know Justin Timberlake wrote the McDonald’s jingle (ba-ba-ba-ba-ba I’m Lovin it) but how else does it play out today?
NH:
Something that is really interesting is product innovation. I don’t know how familiar you are with Gwen Stefani and the Hewlitt Packard Harajuku camera. It was before my time here, but people at this company played a role in bringing that to life. They were leveraging the celebrity of Gwen Stefani, and it was larger than just “We’re going to utilize her music” or “We’re going to utilize her image and likeness.” It was, “Let’s bring her in to these product development meetings and create a brand that is tied to Gwen Stefani, but make it something that is really unique and own-able for Hewlett Packard.” And that was wildly successful. That is a deeper level of engagement that you don’t typically see.
I heard Polaroid hired Lady Gaga in some capacity?
NH:
That’s another great example. They made her creative director.
Tell me about what this space looks like for the independent artist. Other than Free Credit Score’s recent initiative, I can’t think of any other examples off the top of my head but several brands have used an unknown piece of music or an unknown band. I am also starting to see the contest theme and brands leveraging the entire independent music community by having artists compete for some kind of prize. I guess this brings attention to a brand’s products in musician circles. Is that something you’ve noticed?
NH:
I think there are certain brands for whom that kind of contest element makes sense. And then for some of the clients we work with it won’t make sense, because it’s the kind of campaign where you’re going to need a label to help you take the project and put it through the traditional industry marketing channels, or you’re going to need the artist to have a label to make sure the manufacturing and distribution is happening and that it’s not the brand’s responsibility. When you look at the music syncing space, like when you see a company like Apple take a song or an artist that is virtually unknown and feature their song in a campaign, that song almost always goes on to have some success. I think in the syncing space, especially in regards to soundtracks or featuring songs on shows like “Grey’s Anatomy,” I think it’s definitely a great idea to utilize independent artists. First of all because you have that mystique and cachet of featuring someone nobody knows yet, and you can own that as a brand. Then you have the obvious factor, which is that it’s cheaper. In some cases the artists will own their own publishing because they are not signed and you can do a much less expensive deal with them. I think if it’s that type of proposition where you’re not looking to do a deeper integration other than using the music, it’s definitely a good idea to look into the independent landscape.
Have you seen any examples of independent artists doing deep integration with brands, even if it’s small brands or local businesses? I can ask you this from both sides, because you have worked with small and large artists and brands.
NH:
There actually is a great example that was just brought to my attention the other day by one of my strategists here at the office. She sent me a video that was the car company Fiat, who had partnered with an unsigned artist. Fiat was looking to do product placement in their video and there was a little deeper integration element. They were maybe putting their band in their TV spot. I remember looking at that and thinking I didn’t know if I would recommend one of my brands get behind a completely unknown and unsigned artist like that, because they are unproven and have no business backing them to help with the necessary components a brand or ad agency might need to make the brand successful. For example, say we needed product. Who is going to make it? Say we need online promotion. Who is running that? Say we want to utilize the social network of those artists. If it’s just their brother James and their cousin Joe, who is going to buy into the brand? I thought it was interesting they’d made that decision for those reasons…
Is there any advice you would have for artists that want to approach brands or points of entry you know of that are not the front door or traditional way to approach?
NH:
First I would say from a philosophical standpoint, it’s important for artists to start thinking of themselves as a brand. That’s not just, “What genre is my music?” but it is “What do we stand for? What are our brand attributes? What is our value proposition?” That’s how the brand side is thinking of things.
Flesh those out for me. Tell me how you would answer those questions?
NH:
Let’s take Lady Gaga. Say we were talking about the brand that is Lady Gaga. If I were defining it, I’d say that brand is edgy, dramatic, avant-garde, cutting edge, bold. I would take more time to define my target demographic. It’s not just predominantly female, 12-34. It’s club culturists, gay/lesbian/transgender, fashionistas, cultural influencers. And then I think the artist should then define the brand as, “Philosophically if we were to align with a real brand, what would that look like? Who would make sense and who wouldn’t make sense?”
What about value proposition? How do you look at music in terms of a value proposition?
NH:
I think that is subject to interpretation. Is it, “our music aims to do this?” For example, Rage against the Machine. Did they ever sit down in a room and say, “We’re providing a viewpoint on modern politics in America?” I don’t know. If you think about it from the standpoint of, “What do you want your music to do?” Do you want it to inspire? Do you want people to be reflective? Do you just want to give them something they can shake their booties to in a club? Do you want to brighten their Monday? Do you want to make them somber and to think about their lives and what’s going wrong? I don’t think artists really think about those elements from a brand and marketing perspective. I think they look at it more like, “I wrote this song about my ex girlfriend and it’s going to make you sad.” It’s a very subtle distinction. And at the end of the day, that’s what it comes down to a lot of times is that nuance.
Sorry if that sounds fluffy, but unfortunately I think that’s a lot of what marketing is. I think artists really need to give that some thought before they set out to align themselves with brands. Because when you don’t have that clearly defined and you don’t know what you stand for and what it is you are looking to bring into the world, how are you going to figure out what brand it makes sense for you to align with? How are you going to distinguish between the idea that “Converse is a fit for us, but Chrysler is not.” If you don’t know what you stand for, how do you expect the brand to know whether or not you make sense for them? I think if the onus could fall upon the artist to set that up, it would make things a lot easier for people like me in the agency world to align them with brands. It’s those authentic partnerships that really make sense.
I remember years ago Eric Clapton did something with Michelob, and when that went to market, he was in AA. So that’s not an authentic alignment. One that we talk about here was one that Steve Stoute (Founder and CEO of Translation, LLC) used as an example of a bad partnership when he did the Billboard Conference last year. We like to throw it into our case studies as an example of what not to do. That was when Victoria’s Secret partnered with Bob Dylan. You watched the commercial and it was creepy, and the takeaway was, “What does an old, rugged, Americana crooner have to do with young, fresh ladies lingerie?” The answer is, “Nothing that’s not going to make you nauseous.”
I think when you’re coming from a standpoint of brand alignment those are two examples of things that don’t make sense. Should the artist use the product? Yes. Ideally the artist should. Some of the products we represent on Wrigley’s, we have Orbit, Juicy Fruit, Skittles. I get calls from people all the time where the person will say, “Common loves Orbit.” And I will say, “Great. I love knowing that.” Because now when I’m thinking about people that make sense for the Orbit brand, I can keep in mind that Common loves it and chews it and has a favorite flavor and has real loyalty to that brand. That is the foundation of a successful brand partnership.
You can learn more about Translation LLC at their website.
Josh Zandman is the CEO and founder of the music licensing company Song and Film. He is also a writer, producer and a musician. Prior to starting Song and Film Josh was signed to A&M / Interscope records as the keyboard player of the band Burlap To Cashmere.
Josh, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today. Before we get into what you are doing now tell me what it was like for you as a major label recording artist?
JZ:
They wanted us to basically have a grassroots following because of the genre of the music, so we toured over 300 days a year. We were constantly on the road for five years. Even when we got a tour bus, we were showering in truck stops. If we were lucky enough to get one hotel room, and sometimes there were bloodstains on the sheets. We stayed in crappy places. We always would say, “We’re living the dream.” Even when we were playing for 10,000 people, it could be rough.
Many people just don’t really realize just what constant touring entails.
JZ:
The experience is and was incredible. I always say the prize is an empty box, but it’s all about the journey, especially in the music industry. There’s usually nothing to hold on to but the people you meet and the music itself – that’s what it’s about.
There aren’t a lot of artists that do 300 days per year. Today, very few people have tour support and DIY is the rule not the exception. Most people gig doing the weekend warrior thing with three-day weekends if they’re lucky and it seems that almost everywhere you go audiences are as jaded as they are in New York and Los Angeles.
JZ:
When we started, it wasn’t like that. We started in late 1995. The digital stuff wasn’t as popular as it was now.
It was also a very different economy. People had some spare money too.
JZ:
Exactly. We would book ourselves initially. We started out slow. Then we got picked up by PGA when PGA was booking REM and others. Our conga player wanted to be on the road all the time, so he would say, “Put us out.” And he just booked us. When you’re playing for the Christian industry there are so many shows. It’s very supportive from the fans. There are endless numbers of shows. Of course, you’re not playing every day. Back then we were saying we shouldn’t be playing all these shows and just be doing the big ones so we could concentrate on writing and radio, which I think we’d still be together if that had been the case.
You did this for five years- what would you have done differently had you had all that experience when you started out?
JZ:
You need a leader in the band. You need somebody to make final decisions, and we didn’t have that. We had seven people all complaining, and nobody was making decisions. Also, the best thing to do is if you’re a writer in a band and living together and working together, you need to give some of that publishing to the other guys. Because otherwise in our situation, the writer was making all the money, and we never made anything except towards the end, when made a little bit. But when you’re making $20,000 per show playing for 10,000-40,000 people and not making anything because it’s going all back into tour support, you wonder why you’re doing it. You look at bands today that have been around for 20-30 years and they split the publishing. They’re all considered writers, and that’s why they’re together. They’re all making money and all happy and having fun. I also would have made different choices regarding our management.
So the band split up- then what happened?
JZ:
I left the band and was in a crappy apartment. I couldn’t afford rent in Jersey. I had done a demo of a song called Beautiful out in Nashville. It was just a demo, and I did it for free with a guy named Rick Elias, who has had some really big songs on albums in the Christian industry. I sat on that song for a year and didn’t do anything with it until that website Demo Diaries was up and running and popular. I e-mailed Gary there and said, “This song has a Dawson’s Creek kind of feel. Can you put it on your site?” At the time A&R execs would contact you if they liked it when you were posted on that site. Gary asked me “Was this ever on Dawson’s Creek, and do you want it on?” When I said “Not it hasn’t” and “yes please” he told me to e-mail this girl who was the editor to the show and to say that I was recommended by him, and she said, “Thanks, I love it.”
No joke, a week later the music supervisor said, “I need a song for the closing scene in this episode.” And she said, “I just got the perfect song.” Two weeks later, this song was on one of the biggest shows on TV at the time. I was floored. I had been ready to give up on music, and then that happened. Then I tried to get publishing companies to help, but there were no companies out there like Film and Song that pushed songs to TV and film. There were only publishing companies. Nobody would push my stuff. I decided to do it myself and started Song and Film as a tips sheet like Demo Diaries to gain contacts for myself. So I would find bands I thought were awesome and put it up on the site with their contact info. I wasn’t doing it for the money. I was just trying to gain relationships with people. What happened was, in the first two weeks I had the Vice President of Fox Music pick four bands for two pilots coming out. I didn’t know what to do, so I just told him to contact them. Within four months I became known in the music industry because I was doing something different. Putting links in e-mails to music was something nobody was doing at the time. People were excited to be able to just click and listen. That gained a lot of attention. That was seven years ago. Since then, we’ve tried different things, and it has become what it is now. During that process I also wound up playing piano for Kanye West on his first album, which was fun.
You’ve gotten music placed on Dawson’s Creek, you’ve started Song and Film. What other victories have you had for your music and other people’s music?
JZ:
That was just the first thing that happened. During that time I also signed with Cherry Lane Publishing. So I had songs I wrote with them that were placed in movies, and I was writing with people. What happened with Song and Film was that I got more excited about other people’s music, so I never even pushed my own. We have over 300 major placements in A-List movies, from Epic Movie to movies with George Clooney, Patrick Swayze along with national and regional commercials, iPhone and iPad games, indie films, corporate CDs. We work with anything or anyone that licenses music, we’ve had great success.
When people ask me “How do I get my stuff into film and TV?” I never have a clear cut answer except that doing so is a full time job. What I try to explain is that when you’re calling up and say, “Hey, I’m an artist and I have three albums worth and they generally sound like this,” anybody on the phone is generally listening and thinking, “Okay, great, but I’ve got Sony on the other line and they have all of Western music. Can you hold?” Was the idea to work with more music than just your own a strategy to build a bigger catalogue so you could have more conversation currency with these people?
JZ:
Honestly, I wasn’t even thinking that. All I was thinking of was, “One day I want to be a music supervisor, and in order to do that, I need to get music placements.” I thought that at the time, but now I realize it’s just who you know to be a music supervisor. At the time I wanted to build relationships and placements. When I would find a band, all I was going off was my passion for music. That’s it. I get very excited when I hear a new song, and it really excites me and I want to do something with it. This was the vehicle by which to do it. And that was my passion – to play stuff in TV and film. So for me it was, “I love this song and want to send it to these people.” I think it’s your passion and desire that fuel that whole process. It just took off from there. I built up relationships over the years, and everyone was saying, “Wow, these guys are sending me incredible music, and they’re nice. They’re not hard to deal with, and they are simple.”
What kind of deals do you do with artists? Exclusive vs. Non Exclusive etc etc… ?
JZ:
We have two different deals. We opened a publishing company called Snow Jacket. It’s basically still Song and Film, but Snow Jacket is under the same umbrella. We’re only signing single song deals, and we’re doing more of a campaign-style push to break the artist, an that’s brand new.
Elaborate on campaign style.
JZ:
Campaign style is basically that Song and Film runs as a library. Usually leads come in and we say, “Yes, I have this song” and we send it. Campaign style is, “Okay, I have this song, and this band is touring, and we want to help break this artist into the music industry.” So we try to get them high-level placement, promotion, anything that can promote them like crazy by getting links on websites or spots on TV where it mentions their CD is available on iTunes. We do anything we can do to help break the artist. And we pull in our favors from all our clients to say, “Hey, we want your help in breaking this artist and want you to be part of their success as well.” That’s basically the campaign style theory. It’s more that we’re managing a song.
I was a player, but I was never much of a writer. What do you recommend in light of the fact that there are so many placement agencies that are non-exclusive, and you have to worry about people going out and signing up for 15 of these things and that pissing off supervisors because they’re getting pitched with 15 re-titled songs from 15 different people? You now have seven years worth of experience on almost every side of the film and TV placement and scoring, and you’re fortunate enough to have a publishing company doing your placement for your own material. What would you recommend for someone that wants to get songs placed?
JZ:
What I would recommend is not going with a bunch of different companies. And I tell that to artists when they sign up with us. We have a non-exclusive deal as well. We take 50% of the licensing fee, and that’s it. If you work with multiple houses the music supervisors can say, “Who do I give this licensing fee to, because I got the same song from two different pushers?” They hate that because they lose their relationships with one of those people. So, don’t go with all these different people. Find a company that can showcase all their placements. On our site we put up all our placements because we have nothing to hide. We say, “This is what we do. We have nothing to hide. If you like it, great. If not, this is what we do.” And also, do research on the people that run the company. Google them and do tons of research because you want to be working with somebody that is enthusiastic and passionate about what you’re doing. I hear so many stories from artists that their song has been sitting in the place for so long and not doing anything.
Frankly, that’s the rule and no the exception. Artists sign up their music with a library or five libraries and more often than not they never hear back at all.
JZ:
Yes, exactly. And that’s the problem. These people are just trying to gain a huge catalogue. It’s like a mission that you’re going to get so many songs. We only have 40 artists. We’re very selective about who we pick and what songs we pick. We have actual friendships with all the artists rather than them just being clients. They call us up for advice on other stuff, and we encourage them all the time. That’s what it should be like. It’s exciting and is supposed to be fun.
I find that when working with some of the larger catalogues, now you don’t have to work the music supervisors but you have to work the person that has your song because they forget what they own they have such a large catalogue.
JZ:
Here’s the funny thing. When I first started this, there was nobody in TV and film. Now TV and film has become really popular. Artists became aware of it and now these startup companies are just all over the place and saturating all these people. But it’s all about the relationships, and they’re learning that. They’re here, and then they’re gone, because they don’t have relationships with the supervisors.
That’s where our relationship building comes into play. After seven years, they can’t forget us because we’re on their short list. When a new movie comes out, we’re one of the few companies that are notified of the lead. All these other companies are chasing it, and we’re just getting them handed to us now, which is awesome. It takes a lot of work to get there, and it doesn’t mean we limit ourselves to just that. We go out and get new clients all the time.
I know talent and writing a great song and all that is kind of an X Factor, and it might seem a little ridiculous to reverse engineer this process, but I remember that when I was doing campaigns on the agency side, certain themes kept coming up, so everybody wanted “Here Comes the Sun” by the Beatles or “Walking on Sunshine” by Katrina and the Waves. If you had a song about sunshine, you had a shot at getting heard because of the thematic element. Are there artists or themes or things that reoccur?
JZ:
Definitely. And you said it. “Sunshine” or the word “shine.” If you put it in and make it positive and generic so it can be used in a million ways, you’re golden. It’s amazing how much they’ll get placed. And then if you do anthematic-type choruses. We’re working with a song right now called “Believe.” And the message is “you gotta believe.” It can be used in so many different things. Don’t tell a story. Stories rarely get placed. You have to fit the story they already have.
I did an interview with Bill Meadows – a supervisor with Crispin Porter, and he told me a majority of the things he placed were instrumental. Do you find that to be true as well?
JZ:
We do place instrumental stuff, but not as much with what we work on. Bill Meadows works on TV commercials, and they use instrumentals more than the stuff we work on as far as movies and TV shows where they are trying to get a specific message across and need a lyric to support that. We have a deal with MTV and place hundreds and hundreds of songs with them for artists. And they use tons of instrumentals for background because they use so much music. It’s typically more lyric based.
It’s still handy for musicians to have their instrumentals and stems handy though, correct?
JZ:
Yes. Definitely. Always have your instrumental ready and if possible the stem of the whole song.
Any other thoughts in closing or stuff we didn’t cover?
JZ:
The best advice I love to tell artists is when you’re submitting to a company to push your songs, don’t write a story about yourself in an e-mail and read the instructions on the site. I say, “Send me an mp3. If we like it, we’ll get back to you.” And I get ten mp3s in an e-mail or links to all these different places like Sound Cloud. I just delete them now because I’m too busy. An mp3 is the easiest way. Make the e-mail as short as possible. Introduce yourself and let your music speak for itself. You don’t have to try to sell me in an e-mail. A song is a song, and the song is what sells.
What do you want to hear from someone that approaches you cold? Do you want them to give you ideas of how it should be used? Do you need to hear about the artist’s accomplishments? What gets your attention?
JZ:
Definitely don’t say what it could be used for, because you want the person listening to it to make that decision. When I hear it, I know my clients and what I work on. Introduce yourself and mention your placements or deals or that you’re touring. Send three sentences. Don’t tell me you have 50 songs in your catalogue. That’s the worst, because I know I’m going to have to go listen to them if we work together. Just say, “Here’s an mp3” or send a direct link to your Myspace. Don’t link to your website where I have to go and click “music” and then go find it. The simpler you make it, the better it is. Just “Hi, my name is John and I’ve had a few placements on TV. Here’s a song I think you’ll like.”
Are you in fact looking for something that’s off the radar, or are you looking for someone with key performance indicators?
JZ:
It definitely makes a difference. It is worth mentioning if you are doing something notable and not just playing boring coffee shops. If you’re touring right now, it will grab my attention, because a lot of music supervisors want to help break a band. And we get requests sometimes saying, “Is there a band from New York right now that’s doing well? We want to place them in this show.” They’ll request a certain band from a certain area. It doesn’t happen often but it does happen. It’s eye candy. Mention a cool little couple things you’re doing. It doesn’t matter, but it’s subconscious. I think, “Oh cool. This is a working musician and someone that is doing stuff.” And then when you listen to a song, that’s subconsciously in the back of your head. It’s all about the song no matter what. But if it’s a short e-mail, I know who I am contacting and how to talk to the person. I don’t have to figure out how to start the conversation.
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Learn more about Josh and Song and Film
Bill Meadows is the Executive Integrated Producer of Music, Celebrity Talent and Public Works at the very successful advertising agency Crispin, Porter & Bogusky. By way of being a frustrated lawyer who offset his discontent by being in bands and DJ-ing Bill has been working with the agency’s creatives and clients to integrate music, celebrity and brands for the last eight years at Crispin. Bill has placed music in far too many successful campaigns to list here.
Tell me what a day in your life is like. You do more than just music. You’re really looking to incorporate music celebrity with the brands the ad agency’s clients – correct?
BM:
Yes. My job involves everything related to music and then I do celebrity talent negotiations as well. To a degree I get involved in events with the “Public Works Team.” If the event involves music or celebrities, or if we want to book a band or a DJ or a new venue owner, I might get involved with that. I’d say 99% of our content has music or sound involved with it and I’m involved in procuring the appropriate music for TV spots, interactive work, etc., everything from national campaigns down to award shows. There’s a creative element to working with the ad agency’s teams that are involved, to try to find what they’re looking for and perhaps make suggestions, but ultimately get them what they’re looking for, because it’s their baby. I’m there to help them and hopefully help them make their work better under their guidance, as it’s their creative project. Certainly a big part of everything I do is the business side to negotiating the terms of the deal. That can be anything from hiring a music house to compose a musical score or licensing a track by an existing artist from labels and publishers or even stock library music.
Could you estimate what percentage of the music you use is by original artists?
BM:
I hesitate because it’s cyclical. It’s rather unpredictable. This doesn’t exactly answer your question, but my instinct is that the more dialogue-driven the spot is, the less chance there is we’re going to use a known artist. I am fortunate to work at a highly creative agency, and there is a lot of dialogue-driven content. Certainly less than half of what we use is from an existing artist – meaning a vital, working artist. Yes – more than 50% of our stuff is composed for the spot.
You’ve been a musician, so you know about running around with a demo and trying to get arrested with it. What would you say to somebody who is an aspiring artist or an artist who is a work-a-day artist and not a known quantity yet to get your attention?
BM:
I’ve never worked at a major label, but it’s probably not too different. I get loads of demos and stuff in the mail every day. I fully respect everyone that’s sending me stuff and the music they’re sending me, but it’s just that there aren’t enough hours in the day to give the stuff I get the appropriate attention. Blindly sending stuff isn’t necessarily the worst thing you can do, but it’s hard to prioritize listening to things when there’s so much coming in. I think one comment I made on a panel last year was that basically think about what would you do to get on the radio before? People nurture their relationships with radio. An artist would go to radio and get interviewed and play a song in the studio and nurture that relationship on a personal level. I think in a way I’m contradicting myself because I certainly may not have enough time to meet everyone personally but there are a lot of people like me out there.
There are a lot of ad agencies and a lot of ad agencies that don’t have music producers. Letting people out there know about you and that you’re great is best done in person. I think touring artists should certainly make efforts. For example, I’ve had a lot of people – even platinum artists – perform in our lobby for people at the agency because they want to get to know us. It’s certainly well appreciated and starts a dialogue and a relationship amongst the parties. Even if something doesn’t happen immediately and we don’t license a song the next day, those people are always at the front of our mind because you had a personal connection with them. If I were in a band right now and my focus was to promote my band, I’d figure out where there were advertising industry conferences and try to go play shows on site during the day acoustic or try to play the after party and get in front of the decision makers and influencers in the system, with reasonable expectations of the results – not expecting necessarily that there will be a meeting within the next week to bag a giant national ad campaign. But starting a grassroots network of those people and staying in touch with them and working it on a personal level is really important. So, say you’re at a show and you’re playing at a show in Atlanta. Figure out what ad agencies are in Atlanta and figure out who are the creatives there – the writers, art directors and the producers or people who have music in their titles. Try to go by there during lunch and bring five pizzas and an acoustic set, and invite everyone to your show that night. Put them on the guest list and send them all zip files of your tracks. Nurture that network of people, because it’s not likely that you’re going to get on the radio. You have a much better chance of getting exposure through the platform of advertising and media buys than through the platform of radio. Also, there’s nothing speculative about the cash flow. If they like the song, in 30 or 60 days you get a check. It’s not like, “I’m going to make an album and hopefully someone downloads a song or buys the album.” It’s real money in your pocket. It’s really mostly about the personal relationships and developing that network, in my opinion.
Tell me about third-party aggregators. The companies out there like Pump Audio who is part of Getty Image and there seem to be more of them every day. Do you ever use aggregators like that who develop relationships because they have a wide catalogue and stuff that’s easy to clear? Is that a viable way to get heard?
BM:
If you want the honest truth, I did business with Pump Audio for the first time this week. I think we licensed a song from there. Nobody’s ever promoted it to me. I’m aware they are a big entity and do tons of business so I’m sure they must have something great going on. To a degree, I tell people that come to me – make no mistake, I hope you print this – I don’t hold myself up as some music industry expert, because I’m not. I’m just an educated outsider to the workings of the industry of selling music. But a couple people have come to me – artists I know – and have said, “Hey, I got a publishing deal with a big publisher. What do you think?” If someone is asking me that, I want them to get the most attention they can from the people that are working on their behalf. My instinct would be to assume that if you are with big aggregator with hundreds of thousands of songs maybe you would get lost in the shuffle and not the individualized attention that you need to promote your music. But I don’t know that to be the case, because as I said, I’m not on the “music industry” side of the equation.
My philosophy is, if they’re non-exclusive and you still promote yourself, sign up.
BM:
Yeah, I like the idea of non-exclusive but I don’t think you can rely on aggregators alone. If it’s part of a number of things you do to promote your music, then that’s the call. Perhaps it leads to other things. Someone likes the songs, and maybe the person that licenses it comes back and says, “You know who was great? So-and-so.” And then they go back to it and it opens the door to a relationship. So perhaps to that end, have a comprehensive approach with the aggregator being one part of that.
Tell me about the decision making process. You like a song, and how many people chime in at the ad agency? How does that decision usually come about?
BM:
There’s a creative approval process that has multiple levels. I might suggest certain songs, but ultimately it’s somebody else’s creative project, I’m there to facilitate someone else’s creative vision. My role is slightly creative and deal making and hustling. I want to be creative, but you’re always deferential to a creative’s opinion, because in their mind they see it a certain way or hear it a certain way. I’m there to try to interpret what they’re saying and to get what they want. There are various levels of approval. When the agency has an agency-approved, internally-approved song, it is extremely rare that the client has ever disagreed with our music choice. There’s only one time in eight years that a client ever brought up a discussion about music we had chosen. The only way it may be an issue is if after we’re in the process we decide we really like this one song that’s by a super famous artist that exceeds our budget, and we have to go back to rework our budget and get more money to get another song. They might push back on that because of budgetary issues, but creatively it just never happens that a client pushes back. It’s strictly an internal process.
Speaking of budgetary constraints, how often do you have a call for sound alikes? How often do you conversation with someone and say, “Hey, I need something that sounds like ACDC because I don’t have the two million dollar budget?”
BM:
The term “sound alike” is problematic and is never a term I want to hear anybody use at Crispin. When you’re creating a sound alike, presumably you are trying to create something that sounds like something you can’t afford, and you’re asking for a whole list of legal issues. It’s a creative and legal minefield. I never endeavor to sound just like any other song. First of all, I want to open up our minds to different types of music and not say, “We have to have one thing.” By the same token, you don’t know what people are going to do. If you made the mistake of saying, “We’re looking at certain song A.” It’s really easy for someone to go into the studio and try to rip that song off and say, “Oh, we had this song lying around.” I don’t want that kind of situation. I don’t want to be put in a situation where I’m involved in trying to get close to sounding just like any other song so I do everything I can to avoid tainting the process.
I commend you, because there are a lot of people who are in the knockoff business.
BM:
There are. It must’ve been five straight years of Coldplay “Clocks” rip-offs on the air. How have they not sued any number of places for ripping that song off? I felt like every time I turned the television on, there was something with that exact same stuttered drumbeat and piano. There’s so much music and so much great music in every genre that is available to be licensed that there is no reason you should have to create a sound alike. It’s creatively narrow minded to say, “We really love this Beatles or Led Zeppelin or AC/DC song, and we have to have that or something that sounds identical to it.” That’s just lame and means you’re lazy and not open to listening to other music and creatively exploring what options there are to make your spot great. That’s just lazy. There are too many great artists that are known and unknown and too many great pieces of music that are available to be licensed at reasonable prices that you can get that can make that spot great without going to the originals. It’s just lazy and lame to rip songs off.
Are there places you look online for music? When you’re not looking for a human being, is it random Internet search, or … ?
BM:
Having been at this for a while, I know a lot of people with a lot of great music. When I know styles of music or budgets of music or whether we’re looking for big artists or mid-sized artists, or we don’t care which type of artist and know what the task at hand is in my mind people will pop up to contact.
Which archetype of person?
BM:
In interest of efficiency, I trust if someone’s pitching me music, they know their catalogue of 20,000 songs a lot better than I do. People have organized their music and know how to navigate their catalogue and find what I want a lot faster than I can look online at their catalogue. In that type of situation, I’ll go to publishers or labels or third parties. There are third-party individuals or companies that will take a whole label’s catalogue or have ten labels they represent. I like those people, depending on what it is, your regular catalogues and labels. I’ll also contact bands’ management directly. Sometimes if I know an artist and I don’t know who their management is, but I know the artist and I will contact that artist directly. All of the above. As you might imagine, I have thousands of CDs on my shelf. Once in a blue moon I’ll be on the shelf looking for something, but the reality is the person out there who’s pitching music knows their catalogue best. If I go to them and say, “Hey, this is what I’m looking for, etc,” and then I reach out to a number of those people I get a lot of music in and filter through stuff and figure out what’s appropriate and filter out what’s not appropriate. You don’t want to give a creative too much stuff. You don’t want to give them 100 songs, because they don’t have time to listen to it. I like to give them about fifteen songs around, so they can rip through it pretty quickly and maybe pick five things from that they want to put to picture.
Any parting words of advice you might have for people trying to get your attention? How about do nots? What is the most common do nots?
BM:
Please don’t take this the wrong way, but if you’re just going to send me something in the mail, I have to have a reason to open it up. If I get ten padded envelopes or CDs a day in the mail and they’re all that manila color and there’s a printed out label with my address on it, I need a reason to open it, not because I’m a snob, but I get a lot of mail and while part of my job is to open mail I also have many other tasks. If I open something and there’s a CD with a magic marker or sharpie-written thing that says, “Bob’s Music,” it gives me a reason to not listen to it. If you don’t take enough pride in your product to represent it properly, it’s hard for me to spend the energy to check it out. Present your product as if it’s the only shot you’re ever going to make. In no way take that as that I am too snobby or cool to listen to it. Just the sheer volume is such that you should take pride in all aspects of your work and career. If you’re not confident and passionate enough in what you’re presenting then it’s hard for me to get psyched about it.
I think blindly sending mail doesn’t do anything. You need to call, e-mail and be patient. And calling me isn’t ever annoying. I respect the fact that people are trying to hustle and make a career. It’s not at all annoying to me to receive an e-mail once a week or two from someone or a phone message. I shouldn’t be the only person you’re doing it to. You should be doing it to 100 people. I’m one guy at one agency. I think people see it as just the fact that they got me on the phone means they’ve reached the finish line. “I got him on the phone, I sent him my CD … now the money’s going to start rolling in.” Maybe there’s a letdown when a month later they say, “Hey, what’s up? You haven’t licensed any of my music yet.” I tell everybody who I deal with pretty much that if you’re patient with me and have an on-going dialogue, at some point we’re probably going to hit on something.
There are people I’ve known for years that I still keep in contact with, and for whatever reason it’s never resulted in them getting cut a check. There are other people that have hit me up on Facebook, and I’ve met them somewhere and had lunch, and a month later, we hit a deal. There are a lot of factors beyond their control and my control that determine whether or not we’re going to connect. So, work your network, stay on top of people. There’s a fine line between it being a little over the top and staying on people’s radar. You have to stay on people’s radar because of the amount of people that are calling. Even if I love someone to death, and they’re super cool, if I haven’t talked to them in five months, it’s not in the front part of my brain to get in touch with them.
I think another interesting thing is that some of the most influential music people by the nature of the process are editors. A lot of time stuff comes because an editor starts cutting some music as part of a demo spot and it may influence the director as to where the music goes. So, if you have any friends that are editors, definitely give them your songs. I think one thing that’s super important too is to have instrumentals at the ready, and also to have your stems at the ready as well. Lyrics can be a great thing and make something really hit, but more likely than not you have a better shot at placing something instrumental. Don’t just try to push your version with vocals, but have the instrumentals with them. Its’ hard for things to sync up lyrically with a campaign, and additionally, if it’s a dialogue-heavy spot, creatively it doesn’t make a lot of sense to have vocals conflicting with the dialogue, because it distracts from what you’re trying to do with the dialogue. Frequently I say, “Can I get an instrumental of this?” And the person says, “Oh, I don’t know. I have to find my producer” or “I have to find my engineer.” Having those versions ready is vital. Having your stems available is also definitely important. A song may be great for something, but there might be some issue with timing or how it times out in a spot. You want the song to come in at a certain point and you need someone that’s mixing it and editing it on the sound side to hit the transitions in an exact spot, you can’t do that with someone’s MP3 with vocals on it. You need instrumentals or splits so they can chop them up to get really specific. Having those is really important.
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