This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
Tony Monte is the Founder and President of New Music Director, a multi-media company that provides interviews and exclusive performances from a variety of recording artists for web broadcasts. Tony’s career has spanned many different areas of the music industry, including college radio, DJing and marketing and promotion for major record labels. An avid drummer in high school and college, he eventually, he moved away from the idea of being a performer and found his way to college radio at Jersey City State College, working at WJCS. His love for instantly connecting to music fans led him to also work as a club DJ for many years, playing a number of different types of music. And it was DJing that finally led him to his first music industry position, helping build the marketing and promotions company Pellegrino Promotions, from the mid-1980s to almost 2000, which grew into an extension of many labels’ marketing and promotions departments and helped maximize a variety of artists’ projects. During this time, he also helped start the Street Information Network (SIN), a network for DJs that summarizes information about what is happening in markets in different towns and individual clubs both nationally and internationally. Tony left his position at Pellegrino Promotions and became Vice President of rhythm promotion and marketing at RCA Records, and then moved on to take the same position at Capitol Records. Several years ago, he started his own company, New Music Director.
I recently got to sit down and talk to Tony about the work he does with New Music Director, the evolution of the radio format and how artists can go about getting their music heard on the radio.
Thanks for taking the time to speak today. What kind of work do you do with New Music Director?
TM:
We film conversations with recording artists and bands for web broadcasts. And we spend a minimum of an hour with each artist. From that hour-long conversation, we post produce that conversation into a show, which gives a perspective from the artist’s point of view about who they are professionally and personally. Once those shows are produced, we have a national network of affiliates that hosts are show. Those affiliates range from radio stations – which are broken down by format, depending on who the artist is – publications and we’ve just secured our first television affiliate, PIX11 in New York. Right now it lives on the website for the television station. We’ve been very fortunate with that. As we’re developing this, we’re trying to see how we can share our online content with companies like PIX to where it may be able to contribute and enhance what they’re doing as part of their regular broadcasts as well.
I think when you look at it right now, the traditional definition of what television and radio stations do has changed drastically. I think they’re all looking to have a component of their brand that shares some of the content they produce traditionally and provides an option for their listener, viewer or reader – whether it be radio or television or a publication – to get it exclusively online. That online content is so transient. People can carry video, audio or something written with them in their pockets through their PDAs.
I get people coming to me all the time and asking, “How do I get on the radio?” Mostly I come back and say, “You have to build up to it,” or “You have to approach the local show guy if you’re more of a rock guy and there isn’t a chance for different mixes and winding up on a mix show.” How do you answer that “getting on the radio” question for a DIY artist that is doing okay in their home town and starting to draw people to shows? When is it time to go to radio and how does it work?
TM:
There are a couple things there, because I had a chance to see it internally at two labels. After RCA, I had the same position at Capitol Records. Although you look at your responsibility as being the same when you shift labels, the way it develops is different depending on where you are. Honestly, the answer is, “There’s really no clear-cut answer.” Oddly enough, a lot of it is common sense. You need to think about, if you were in a position where you were trying to connect to what an artist is doing, how would you want to be approached? I realize a layperson may not understand how record rotations work and how songs get rotated, or what power, medium and new rotation is. And that person probably doesn’t understand how records stay on the air through research.
But I think the first thing to do is to just look at the landscape locally. No executive in any company that’s based in New York City or L.A. is going to be any more knowledgeable about what’s going on in Denver, Portland, Oxnard, Roanoke, Virginia, Ft. Myers or even Miami than you if you live in one of those places. You’re going to know more of the intricacies of your market than anyone else. And I think when you look at how things develop and you know the street better in the town you live, you can see how things develop a buzz. If things are only coming to you from radio, then that’s your only outlet. But I don’t think that’s the case, especially in this day and age.
I think you have to look at building a solid foundation. And that foundation comes with believers. And it comes with working on “the street” (for lack of a better word). And the street is any outlet through which you can connect, whether that be through the clubs, through hanging out at a mall or theater and giving your music away in order to create some kind of awareness. Obviously now more than ever being able to perform well has become the biggest advantage that you can get as a developing artist. It’s really solidifying locally who you are, what you do and building from there.
Obviously you have this really traditional radio background, and now you’re moving towards being a content guy. In a lot of ways, the jobs are similar. You have this product that you want to disseminate as widely as possible and get those artists exposed. Of course, you make money by being a content provider. But what have you seen change for artists at radio? You said you have to build a story in your local market. But are there key performance indicators that people are looking for when they’re taking a look at artists for radio?
TM:
I think everyone has a difficult job, no matter what they do. It appears that because of the way the music industry and radio have evolved, it has become much more difficult than ever to secure a slot on radio. The reason I say that is because radio programmers, heads of programming – whether they be regional, national or consultants – are being looked at under the microscope by the people that oversee each of those different areas. They have to stand behind the decisions they make in supporting a record to put on the air. If a record doesn’t’ connect almost immediately, it doesn’t stay on the air. It has a shorter life span, unless they can see something happening. If you get to the point as an artist of even being on the air, having a great song is just a part of it. I don’t know if it’s as meaningful as it has been in the past, because they want to see other things.
A recent example is, I wound up sitting with some programmers with a new artist and playing the song. While the song was playing, they were just as interested in looking the artist up via their Facebook page, their Twitter page and their other online outlets as they were in the song itself. People want to know now, even with a brand new artist, what’s going on. And it goes back to what I was saying earlier: If you can create a story and build a foundation locally, it gives you a platform to move from. One of the advantages of doing things locally is that the clock doesn’t necessarily run out. When you’re at a major corporation – a multi-national music company – there are a number of artists that are scheduled. That’s just fact and reality. And you have a window during which to connect with an audience and the general public. If the company doesn’t see those signs, they’re onto the next band or artist. I don’t mean that in a negative way. It’s just that the reality of the process.
I remember back at RCA, we didn’t really have that strong an urban and rhythm crossover presence. It was more of a Top 40 and a rock company. So, when we had an artist like Tyrese, we were able to spend the time and money to develop an artist for longer than some of the companies that were the cornerstones of that format. Because these other companies had so many established artists coming, they had to make way; if a project or an artist or a song didn’t connect in that window, they were onto the ones they knew had some kind of history. We had the luxury, in the case of Tyrese, of not having that history, so we could spend an incredible amount of time reinforcing a song and the artist with general public and radio. That doesn’t exist now. You have a small amount of time spent. And once you are green lit, that’s when the clock really gets running, and it has to happen quickly.
One of the things that most people don’t know is how and why songs stay on the radio for as long or as short a time as they do. And in most cases, that’s done by call-out research. A company calls the listeners of a radio station. They go into a quick summary of who the listener is and how they’re connected to the station and whether or not they’re full-time listener. Then, the listener will be able to hear what equates to seven seconds of a song – the hook of a song – and rate it. In a city like New York, from what I’m told, the number is a little over 130 people that get called and tell radio stations which are hits and which are not. Nowadays, you have the electronic reading of the airwaves with MScores and tools like that, which are even more of a deterrent to new music.
It’s a lot more difficult than ever before. It’s something you can talk about for hours and argue and debate about. But that’s just the playing field right now. If you get on the radio, your song has to react fairly quickly.
When do you think it’s time for an artist to go to radio? I feel like a lot of artists go prematurely, even if just through a college campaign.
TM:
It’s funny, because I’ve seen, both on the independent side and working as an extension of different labels and departments, that even being in it on the corporate site, you can literally come out of a meeting and say, “Okay, radio’s the most important component of this project, but it’s going to be the last one, because we’re going to develop a live presence or a publicity campaign first. There’s going to be marketing and all that.” And then within 24 hours of that meeting, you’re thrown into the middle of this big radio campaign, and you’re thinking, “Wait … weren’t we going to build this organically?”
I’m glad to hear you say that. It has always felt to me like everyone is really impatient and pushes the radio button way too quickly.
TM:
Yes. And there are a number of reasons for that. Number one, managers play a big part in it. And what manager doesn’t want to hear his artist on the radio? Managers are also getting pressure from their artists, who say, “Why am I not on the radio?” And that gets translated to the labels, who are asked to expedite that process. That’s one of the reasons for it.
The other reason for impatience traditionally is that it’s incredibly difficult to develop a record, but it’s the most rewarding. One of the bands I point to right away, who can pretty much back up everything you and I have been discussing is the Dave Matthews Band. Here’s a bar band out of Charlottesville that played in what I think was Coran Capshaw’s bar. They played to a lot of college kids and developed such a strong foundation locally that when all the college kids went home, they went home with a Dave Matthews Band album. They built a loyal, incredible following based on being a bar band. You can go back further and look at Springsteen. He had probably one of the biggest bar bands to ever emerge. And I mean that with all due respect.
So, when is it time to go to radio? It’s really hard to say. I don’t think there’s any blueprint for it. I think you can “line up the stars,” as I used to be told at one of my corporate positions, and use the avenues that are responding and reacting well and go to radio with some kind of a story. But that’s the best case scenario. Because you have a small window with radio – now more than ever – you need to go with as much going on as possible.
With college, I think you have to go with the right song to the right station; that’s the key to everything. Is your music right for the outlet that you’re going to? That’s the first question to ask. And I think the answer has to come with a lot of objectivity. And it’s hard for certain artists to be objective. I think if you can look at where you’re going and know that it makes sense, then that’s the key.
Just another thing, I remember when RCA had The Strokes, there was a conscious effort; because “Last Night,” one of the songs off their debut album had some pop appeal. And it wasn’t necessarily part of the plan, even if there was interest, to bring them to pop radio, even if they had a song which many thought could’ve been a mainstream song because it would diminish the core of the band. On the other hand, you had people that don’t have records that are accessible to pop radio trying to jam it down their throats. And it just doesn’t work like that. So, you have to know where you’re going, and be objective about where you’re going before you get there.
What have you learned about the importance of the work you do with New Music Director? How do you approach having these conversations with artists, and how does that set your business apart from others that facilitate conversations/interview bands and artists?
TM:
I’m trying to do two things. And in conversations about this, I always have said, “I want to hear something I’m doing that’s so great, I’ll ask my mom and she’ll tell me how great I am.” I’m interested in the critique. I have very thick skin – as most promotion people do – so I’m not offended easily. I’d rather hear the negatives about what we’re doing. One thing I have found in talking to people about this around the country, since our show is on websites nationally, is that the people that are watching this really seem to connect with who these artists are as people.
On the artist side, I’ve been blown away by how many artists – and we do have this on camera – enjoy having an opportunity to open up. And when you look at how quick and fast paced this world has become – and we do live in a sound-byte-based world – most artists, when they are brought to a radio station, have X amount of time. They’re pretty much asked the same questions: “When does the album come out?” “Are you in the Top 40 of Hip Hop world?” “Whose vesting on the album?” And they also get asked other basic types of questions about producers. And there’s a void when it comes to many of these artists being able to share who they are personally. There’s that Inside the Actors Studio, 60 Minutes, Charlie Rose void for these artists; they don’t necessarily get a chance to really get into talking about “why” and “who.” Those are the important questions. And we find that what we’re doing has been in some cases therapeutic for artists. We’ve had a number of artists share some incredibly intimate stories and feelings with us that have led some of them to almost literally slide off their chairs laughing and others to break down in tears. They are able to share different things about who they are and how it’s reflected in their music. We try to position that to where I think we’re offering people that digest our shows an alternative to what they’re seeing in most other places.
Obviously you wouldn’t be in this business if you didn’t feel what you were doing was important. But do you think it’s important for an artist to share themselves in this way and post the content online? How is what you’re doing enhancing the visibility of the artists that you’re interviewing?
TM:
I think we’re giving an audience a chance to get to know the artist.
Is that important for an artist in the developmental stages as well?
TM:
I think it’s always important. For example, Game is a multi-platinum artist who has been around for ten years. We were fortunate enough to be able to have a very comfortable and genuine conversation with him. He brought up things I know for a fact he’s never brought up in the ten years he’s been an artist and in the ten years people have wanted to know what makes him tick. We don’t ask the normal questions that artists are used to being asked. That’s what I think is different.
In growing up, being around for a while and looking at some of the historical groups, I think about, for example the Rolling Stones. I never knew where Keith Richards lived. I could only imagine. But this generation and the previous generation grew up with MTV Cribs, so they know these little details.
Is there any potential backlash when an artist shares themselves in this way before they have an established brand? Is there a danger of losing some of the mystery?
TM:
Yes. I think so. We spend sometimes a week researching any given artist we talk to. And a question I ask a lot of artists is, “When is too much information too much information?” And some of the answers I get are funny. I think there needs to be that mystique about an artist; that’swhat makes them special. And I only say “special,” because musicians are people that are affecting people’s lives. Bands like The Who and artists like Bob Dylan, or bands like The Clash, or Public Enemy on the hip hop side have affected people’s lives. They’ve brought a consciousness to people. And that’s always what’s been special about music to me. It’s great to enjoy music as entertainment, but the power of music – another thing we talk about a lot – is something that’s really special.
There’s a quote attributed to Bruce Springsteen – and I hope this ties back into what you’re asking – that I’ve always loved: “You have to look in your audience’s eyes and see yourself. And they have to look into your eyes and see themselves.” I think you can translate enough information to share in a way that affects people without giving up the MTV Cribs level of information, like telling someone what type of soap or shampoo you use. I’m not really interested in what Pete Townshend had for lunch, even though he’s probably the songwriter or musician that has affected me the most. I think there is a time where there has to be mystique about the people you admire and respect. But it’s difficult now because the line has been so blurred and is so incredibly thin that some people want to know absolutely everything. Yet, they’re still not necessarily finding out everything that artists want to share.
To learn more about Tony Monte and his company, visit the New Music Director website.
Wayman Jones is CEO and President of Gravity Entertainment, an independent radio promotion company. With nearly 30 years in the music industry, he got his start in the early 1980s working in music retail as an intern at a local independent record company. From there, he made his way into the promotion department of an East Coast music distribution company, where he developed a passion for radio, and first learned about how airplay could help generate excitement about records. He started to work as a regional promotion manager for both PolyGram and Arista records, with a focus on the dance and urban markets, and eventually worked his way up to become Senior Vice President of promotion and marketing for PolyGram, Dreamworks and then Warner Bros. Wayman left Warner Bros. in 2005 to start Gravity Entertainment, where he helps artists, producers and small labels fine-tune their marketing campaigns and connect on radio stations and video outlets.
Recently, I got to sit down with Wayman and talk about his experience in the music business, how artists can use mixtapes and how musicians can establish relationships with key players in radio and with reputable independent promoters in order to get their music heard and successfully build a loyal following.
Thanks so much for talking to me today, Wayman. How did you get into the music business?
WJ:
I was on my way to being a doctor, believe it or not. And one day I looked at myself in the mirror and said, “Would I come to me for healthcare?” And I answered, “No.” I knew there had to be other alternatives.
I started out in about 1980, right out of college, in retail. It was the Golden Age of retail with independent distribution and all those wonderful things, and all the stores were carrying large amounts of everything. Even Sears had records. Everyone was carrying records and cassettes. It was the end of the 8-track era and the beginning of the cassette era. I initially started selling records as an intern at a local record store. I wound up at an East Coast distribution company called Schwartz Brothers in their promotion department. I followed my brother, who was a promotion person there. And he actually ended up at RCA Records for about 15 years as a promotion guy.
I started to understand the process of music from the perspective of retail and how radio and airplay generated excitement. At that time, radio was the primary means for selling product. The format was pretty well defined at that time. And I started to enjoy my job. From there, I went to Arista and then to PolyGram Records, as a regional promotion manager at both places.
From what I know of promo people, when they wind up as a regional manager, they end up moving every couple years.
WJ:
Exactly. I pretty much stayed put. But I did the area from Boston, across to Pittsburgh, down to Virginia, which included New York as a major market. Boston was a sub-major. And Washington, D.C. was a major as well as Philadelphia. Primarily, at that time it was dance/urban. Great dance records were breaking all the time from smaller labels. The dance arena has basically gone away now, unfortunately.
From there, I managed to get my first national job at Arista, which was a singles company at that time. The business was starting to make a slight transition from singles to albums, and Arista carried a couple interesting lines; they had a deal with Buddha and a deal with Jive, which was pretty much a South African company back then. But Buddha and Jive also had some quasi-jazz artists like Tom Brown.
After Arista, I went over to work for Virgin, then went back to PolyGram as a Senior VP of promotion and marketing. And then I went to Dreamworks as a Senior VP of promotion and marketing and then came back to Motown. Then I went out to Warner Bros., which was the end of the line for my corporate jobs in Promotion and marketing in the urban market. There was a delineation between the Senior VPs in different genres of music. There was a different Senior VP for urban, pop, etc. It was a very top-heavy industry that is really no longer in existence.
When did you start Gravity Entertainment?
WJ:
I started right out of Warner Bros. in 2005. I was initially providing promotion services for smaller labels and some of the bigger labels, because I was still working on a number of projects for major label artists. But as time went on, those budgets were cut, and there was no need for outside help, because the promotion deals were becoming corporate deals, which made sense as the business evolved into more of a digital business. It evolved into a 40-50% digital business.
What became evident is that the playing field was even for small companies and larger companies. Independent companies were able to compete at a grassroots level with major companies. And major companies were having trouble dealing with DJs and all kinds of grassroots efforts. And that’s what smaller companies have always been able to do really well. It seems to fit into their profile to build from city to city and build regional campaigns and connections with DJs. So, in 2005, there were artists like Waka Flocka, Gucci Mane and Lil Jon who were able to corner their region and create a groundswell. They proved it was possible to break records without the use of the big machine that everyone thought was the only way to break records.
Through Gravity, I supply marketing and promotion services and overall consulting to clear the way for guys to decide which opportunities to chase and how to chase them and how to build marketing campaigns that are cost effective. And the biggest thing I am able to do is help smaller labels and artists make a decision about which opportunities to chase and how; sometimes they get wrapped up in hearing themselves on the radio and don’t pay attention to some of the things that can really build their profile. Because everyone has the ability to make it if they just sit down, plan and work with the right people.
Gravity Entertainment is a five-person company, and I’ve kept it on a personal level. I use my email as a way for everyone to reach me. I didn’t build a website because I’m not comfortable with the ones that I’ve seen, and I don’t think I’ve come up with an idea to make my website more important or better than anyone else’s. So, I just use my gmail address. It’s simple, and it will link you directly to me.
I like to share as much information as I can. I still attend conventions and get on panels. My services are unique because of how I deliver them and how I educate whomever I’m working with. There are a lot of projects I don’t get involved with, because frankly, a lot of people don’t need what I do. And sometimes they just don’t know it.
I know your specialty is urban music. People approach me all the time and say, “I just want to get on the radio; I just want all the DJs to hear me.” How can an artist with limited resources build a story that can get them noticed by radio? Obviously knocking on the door of the local Top 40 station with a demo is suicide. How can artists get ready to approach people at the local radio level?
WJ:
Yes. Knocking on the door with a demo isn’t the right way. The first thing that every artist has is the ability to reach consumers and reach ears via the internet. It’s there for you. If you’re able to focus on who should be hearing you and build up a fan base – not necessarily with the intent of selling to them, but just to make them aware of you. So, the first stage is to have an internet profile and build a groundswell, and communicate with that groundswell. If you have 2,000 people who follow you on the internet, use Facebook and all those resources and direct these followers to your site so they can become familiar with who you are and what you do. Once you do that, you can start to seed other areas. It’s like walking up steps; you can’t walk up five at a time.
And you have to build a fan base you can depend on. This fan base will give you information about who similar to them like you or don’t like you. It’s as important to find the people that don’t like you as it is to find the people that like you, because then you don’t chase the wrong formats. This process allows you to find the area where your music fits, not where you think it fits. A lot of times folks think, “I belong on this pop station.” And all the formats are closer together than they’ve ever been musically. But where you start in music is where you start to build your core. And if you start somewhere you don’t fit, you’ll never get heard. And the key to that is, of course, your social networking, building your digital profile and all the tools that allow folks to hear your music. And you need to present information in the way you want them to see it, show them images you want them to see, show them videos on YouTube you want them to watch and tell stories you want them to hear. You need to be in complete control. If they don’t look at it, you don’t want to mess with them anyway. You don’t want to be involved with them until you’ve put them in a position where they want to understand who you are.
Once you start identifying your audience, then you can target it. And then you can start thinking about commercial radio and markets. You need feedback on what you are. The feedback will help make you a better artist and train you to listen. A lot of artists don’t spend a lot of time listening, because they want people to listen to them. As an artist, you have to listen to your fans, so you are selling the right things and saying the right things, things that will get their attention. And maybe when you start hearing back from them, this will help you decide the things you want to say and what you want to be publicly, instead of just trying to align with another artist that you think is cool.
The playing field for artists is similar to how it was in the early jazz days. It’s such a beautiful thing right now. An artist, a small label or a small group can be in complete control of their destiny as they start to walk up the steps. If you skip steps, you fall right on your face.
Let’s say you do have your website set, your Twitter is firing, your Facebook fanpage is there and you’re on YouTube; everywhere people look, they can find you and connect to you in the venue of their choice. Say that’s all set, and you’re trying to build a pulpit from which to preach. What is the next step in approaching radio?
WJ:
Try to develop relationships with DJs in the area so you can privately send them music. True DJs, true club cats and true genre format guys want to hear everything. Everyone wants to hear new music, because they want to say they heard it first. If you reach out to someone your immediate area – even a DJ for a small station or someone that does it part time – you can start to build that little rapport.
When I send out music to DJs, I don’t send it to their radio stations. I send it to their homes or to their private emails. I don’t use a service. I use all the years I’ve been around in order to reach them, so I make sure they open it. There’s so much junk that comes in today. I personally get emails from all these services that do e-blasts, and I never open them. I have no reason to open them, and neither do DJs. The sad part about those services is they provide free music that you as an artist could be selling later on. Most DJs don’t have a job at a radio station. Most of them don’t even have a job at a club. They are often part-time or mobile DJs who might want to buy your music. But when you go to these services, they give your music away to 50,000-60,000 people that could’ve been 50,000-60,000 paid downloads. You’re basically giving it away to people that might have bought it.
The next step after building your own core fan base is to expand your relationships so you are able to send music to folks in a targeted style, rather than in a shot-gun style. You need to know who you’re sending to. You need to be able to say, “I’m sending this music to a jock I met at a club.” Or maybe somehow through your social media, you wound up with a Facebook address from someone that contacted you and spins on the weekends at one of the hotter clubs in Miami, Tampa or Philadelphia. And you can send him your music. And he will tell you, “I hate it” or “I love it.” Even “I hate it” is good information, because then you know not to send him any more music, or that it might not be genre-specific enough for him to deal with it. If you get one out of five people to respond to you, you start to build a core of people that are industry related and can also take your music and expose it somewhere. Before you know it, you’re building a relationship. You might never talk to the guy in person or even on the phone. It could happen just from emails.
The most important idea to keep in mind is, you’re not just giving music away. You’re giving it to someone that could help you, and help spread the word about your music. And it’s someone that loves new music. And you don’t want your music to be spread to 50,000 people that could’ve potentially bought it from the digital marketplace in which you choose to sell.
Related to that, you have to protect your content. Don’t make it and release it on the same day. Make sure you protect it and that your publishing arrangements are in place. A lot of people get their content stolen right off their websites and social media sites – even just the idea of it, whether it uses a sample or is something original. Nothing is yours until you prove it’s yours and until you license it.
Do you believe in the power of mixtapes as a promotional tool?
WJ:
I do. But there are so many of them. Something a lot of people are doing with mixtapes now is taking popular songs and sticking their new songs in between them. I’m not sure if this is harmful or beneficial. We’ll see. I think that if you believe in your music, and it’s something you spent a lot of time on, and if you’ve done everything you should’ve done in terms of protecting your content and building your core, working hard on your social networking and on your imaging, maybe that type of mixtape won’t do you any harm. But if you haven’t done the other work, and you put your mixtape up too soon, you’re throwing it out there for somebody to pick up. The problem is either they won’t notice you, or they will notice you too much and steal it.
If you’re that small independent artist or company, and you want to fight someone else over your content, and your ducks aren’t in a row, it will be an automatic loss. It will cost you money you don’t want to spend and will take you to a place you don’t want to go. And controversy doesn’t necessarily breed familiarity. It’s just trouble. But, if you have your ducks in a row, are semi-commercial, have fans that are spread out globally and want to give away a song, maybe putting one of your original songs on a mixtape is a risk you might take.
Is there a strategy for getting a mixtape out there? Is there a distribution network?
WJ:
There used to be. Now everyone makes mixtapes. There are a billion engineers out there, and no one is really managing them.
When I was at Warner Bros., we had a group called Trillville and we had Lil Scrappy. They came out of Lil Jon’s camp. He completely believed in mixtapes, but it was only his artists. It wasn’t random mixtapes. The mixtapes had a purpose. We gave away 50,000 CDs and DVDs. We called them “Fight Club” DVDs. He would have films of guys in scraps outside of a club. And then in the middle, he’d have a stripper, and then after that he would have his song playing behind the stripper. They were tremendously popular. But that was 2004, and then, you could actually give that kind of merch away. When was the last time you saw people giving away cards for artists or merch on telephone poles? The internet has replaced all that. At the time I had a team of 22 kids running around and putting up posters at either their universities or outside of events. I was fined thousands and thousands of dollars for putting that stuff up; I had to pay to take it down, because it got out of hand.
The internet has the same potential to get out of hand. You get songs that once you let them out, you don’t know where they go unless you control how you send them and to whom you send them. My son makes mixtapes for young groups. And he refuses to make them until they have every song published. Then he will mix in other songs. It’s like a big DJ mix. One long 30-minute track. You can put them on in the club and let it run.
Mixtapes are a beautiful thing as long as they don’t hurt you. I think in a way, it’s starting to hurt, because there are just so many of them.
I’m guessing there’s more of a strategy to getting your mixtape out there than just cold emailing Datpiff.
WJ:
Cold emailing doesn’t work. If you don’t know who you’re sending it to, cold emailing or blanket emailing allows other people to have something over which you don’t have control. The whole game is to know the response to the email. It’s similar to how record pools used to be. If you send all this product to record pools, and nobody responds, you don’t know whether you wasted your time or your money, or whether they are playing it to death in certain clubs. There’s nothing specific or targeted about it and no return of information.
You might remember this, but we used to send these cards out when we’d send a product, so it would go to the DJs in the DJ meetings. And the DJs never returned them. So, the only thing we could do – and this was in the Def Jam days – was stop sending them. And DJs didn’t respond until they stopped getting the new LL Cool J or the new Foxy Brown. All of a sudden, we heard from them. So, we broke the pools by having a specific guy send to us instead of having to send it to the pool. And the pool was charging a fee. So, the pool broke down, because we suddenly had all the individual names.
And as radio stations went into the new selector programs from the turntable manufacturers, we didn’t have to send anything but a file. We used to have to send them two records. And they could download the file, and the music was in there. And now they even have “blends,” where you can blend all the songs together.
The other thing to remember is that program directors (PDs) and music directors (MDs) don’t go to clubs. They have mix show coordinators that should have everything. If the PD or MD doesn’t hear it from them, it doesn’t exist and goes right in the trash. But successfully connecting to radio is the cumulative effect of targeted social networking and making sure the right people can hear your music.
There are a lot of shady independent record promoter guys out there that will just run off with artists’ money. Your reputation precedes you as a stand-up guy with a lot of industry experience. Is there advice you would give to someone looking for a reputable radio promotion person?
WJ:
Try to get informed, so you know the process. Once you understand the process – and this is why I like talking to people – you can’t “get got.” If you understand the process, you know there are things you can do to prepare that will cost you very little money. As an artist, if you’re entering into a relationship with an “indie,” you should have an extended conversation and a list of questions to ask. Guys that guarantee you airplay are probably going to get you airplay on stations you don’t want to be on. You need to ask about at which times of day the largest number of people will receive your message on the radio. And as soon as a promotion person you’re looking into says they can guarantee you these certain times of day, get off the phone. And as soon as they say, “I own this station,” or “I can get you X number of spins,” get off the phone. Because this station will be a smaller-market station, and these spins will be overnights when no one is listening.
I’m not downing smaller-market stations. But a lot of times folks want to hear their records during the day. And there’s a process by which certain music works its way up in a format. Normally, for certain songs, it works itself in either through a mix show. And those mix shows all have to be approved, not by a mix show coordinator or a PD, but by a director or a head of programming, who is in a central office. All the stations now are connected. There are all these Clear Channels and Radio 1s. All the Clear Channels are programmed out of Atlanta. So, there’s one guy – even on the mix shows – that allows DJs to play certain records. So, when you’re getting guarantees from Flatbush-somewhere, Louisiana, it will not mean anything.
Also, ask a potential promoter about monitoring. All songs are monitored by BDS or Media Base, so you can see how much your song is being played. Each song leaves a footprint.
Do those cover every station?
WJ:
They cover most of the commercial stations, but they don’t cover everybody. Once again, the only way you can gauge the value of your investment in an independent radio promoter is by what you can see. There are no guarantees in life on anything, much less on airplay.
There are things you can do as an individual without the help of a promoter. If you’re in a smaller market, and you want to get on a smaller market station, go to the station events. You probably as an artist have been there before. You can go to the radio station itself, its club events or its charity events. Every station is promoting itself through clubs and philanthropic efforts and events. Their license depends on the things they do. So, they have to do some community service events. For example, radio stations might hold events related to “turn in gun” programs “assist a school” programs, “A.I.D.S awareness” or a number of other charities. A requirement of the FCC licensing agreement for radio stations is that they do some public service events. Pay attention to their event announcements and find out how they’re doing business. Be an educated artist or an educated label.
But, as soon as you hear guarantees from a potential promoter, you need to ask more questions. If they are giving you guarantees, make sure you ask them how they are able to make those guarantees. It might be something you don’t want to be associated with or something you don’t want to know. You just need to ask.
To learn more about Wayman Jones, his experience and the services he offers, you can contact him directly at jones.wayman@gmail.com.
Drew Murray is Vice President of Adult Formats at C05, a full service radio promotion company regionally based throughout the country. With almost 40 years experience in radio, he got his start in the music industry working at his college radio station, then moved onto work at a commercial radio station in Atlanta, GA, which led to a job working at Casablanca Records, a label responsible for putting out many albums by artists such as KISS, Donna Summer, The Village People and Parliament. Drew stayed at the label after it was absorbed by PolyGram Records in the early 1980s and worked in radio promotion there until 1998. Since the early 2000s, he has been working with a variety of indie labels and was a part of the full-service artist management firm Sanctuary for seven years. His focus at C05 is on the Triple A, Top 40 and Hot AC formats.
I got the chance to sit down with Drew and talk about his experience working in radio and how he has seen the Digital Age affect radio stations and artists of every size and type trying to get their songs out there.
How did you first get into the music industry?
DM:
I started back in the 70s at college radio, just because I was a fan of rock music. And then I got a job at a commercial station in Atlanta for about four or five years. After that I got offered a job at the legendary Casablanca Records in the late 70s, towards the end of their “hey day.” It was one of those things where they wanted someone with “rock radio credibility” to work on KISS records, because everything else was all “disco, disco, disco.” Interestingly enough, the first real KISS record I worked was their disco record, I Was Made for Loving You.
I was there when they did the solo records too. To some people in the industry, that was the beginning of the end of Casablanca anyway. Eventually I just went along for the ride, and Casablanca ended up getting eaten up by PolyGram. I worked for PolyGram as a radio promotion guy; I went from Atlanta, to Houston, to L.A., to New York on their behalf. And that’s when it morphed from four labels into one, and in the mid-late 80s it split off into Mercury, Polydor, Island, and they bought A&M and brought them in, etc. I was there until they merged Mercury and Def Island Jam in 1998. I was part of the furniture for about 20 years.
After Polygram, I worked at a couple small indie labels. But since then, the largest amount of time I spent somewhere was about seven years at a company called Sanctuary, which had a records division and a radio promo team for that. But the main thing that drove that bus was the management division.
And Sanctuary was early in having the Azoff model, where everything was under one roof.
DM:
Right. Sanctuary was early on having everything under one roof – the label, the management company, the merch company, etc. The Sanctuary business’ claim to fame was that they were Iron Maiden’s management company all those years. That’s how they built the empire. For a couple years, the company was big. And then they brought in other managers and their artists. For a few years, you’re right, it was the Azoff model or what Azoff has now become.
They were right. They were just a little early.
DM:
Exactly. But, I was glad to be there and felt lucky. It was a fun experience.
So, these days you’re doing a lot of multi-format?
DM:
Yes. I work for a company called C05. They’ve been around since 2004. The people that founded the company came up with the concept because they knew there were a lot of people getting out of the major label system. And whether they were going to the marketplace themselves or to a small indie label that had no staff, they saw that the business was starting to grow and evolve. And to compete in the marketplace that is radio, you need a dedicated team. One of the things that the major labels pitch, vs. doing it yourself or having an indie label, is having the manpower to work radio across the country, because they have dedicated regional reps that cover markets in different parts of the country.
And your story is a fairly common one for either an MD, PD or independent promotion person. Wherever that next station or job opening was, you ended up pulling roots and moving quite a bit.
DM:
Yes. In pitching it to a client that wants to take a song to radio, you can put together a hodgepodge of people in different markets. If you’re an artist doing it yourself and hiring various independents, they’re probably working a bunch of different records, working whatever else they can get their hands on. What C05 brings to the table is a dedicated promotions staff. It’s like hiring a major label promotions staff that is working specifically for you. And everyone we have in the field is a veteran of the major label system. We only take on one or two projects per format at a time. I’m the VP of adult formats. I do Triple A, Top 40 and Hot AC. Someone else does alternative rock and active rock. We have a total of eight people: five regionals in the field and three national people.
That’s great. It’s a good company.
I often talk to people about how they have seen the Digital Age influence what they have witnessed happen in the music industry. I’m a believer that there are a lot of alternatives to radio and a lot of ways to get noticed in ways other than on radio these days. But at a certain point, it seems if you are looking to sell celebrity-level amounts of records, you need radio. Are you finding that’s the case?
DM:
At Sanctuary – and Sanctuary thought of itself as a management company first and a label second – that was the mantra that was definitely drilled into us: radio is the icing on the cake, but not the cake itself. Even at the beginning of the Digital Age – because it was 2001 when I went to go work for them – that mantra was still the basis. They used Iron Maiden as the example: “Iron Maiden can sell out stadiums and arenas across the planet without a song on the radio.” If they do get a song on the radio, they’re that much better. And again, they were huge with touring and merchandising. The idea of not needing to have a song on the radio to be successful was drilled into my head every day for the seven years I worked at Sanctuary.
The distinction between “executive” and “musician” is blurred now because all these DIY artists have had to grow up really quickly and manage their own careers if they want to get anywhere. You of all people know that “artists and repertoire” has now become “mergers and acquisitions.” The question I get a lot is, “How do I get my song on the radio?” When I was doing A&R I was doing research-oriented A&R, and we would see the occasional local artist who would make good on the local show and then wind up in what is essentially a major playlist on the local station. With the conglomeration of all these major radio chains, is that harder to do these days?
DM:
Very much so. If you want to take the Digital Age paradigm one step further and talk about how it affects radio, radio used to be ranked. Their bread and butter was a very antiquated ratings system where people filled out diaries once a week where they would talk about what they listened to. Now most of the major markets in the country and also some of the secondary markets as well have digital monitoring devices to track people listening to radio in real time. What’s happened with that is that it comes down to the lowest common denominator, especially with corporate stations. The mantra has become, “Be as familiar and as safe as possible.” Because on general principle, people will tune out something they don’t like or something they don’t know.
That being the case, are there still local radio shows that mean anything?
DM:
There are. I think a lot of this is still evolving, because some of that technology has only been around for about four or five years. It only became national about two years ago. So, radio stations are still figuring out how to read the raw data. I’ll give you a prime example of an argument I had with a Hot AC station, which targets to adult women. Your typical listener might be in her car, driving to the mall. The number one single on your station this week might be P!nk’s “Perfect,” and as radio station, you are playing that song because you know it is doing great for you. But this listener gets to the mall while this song is on and turns off her car radio. The first store she goes into to buy something for her daughter is Hot Topic. So, according to this tracking technology, if it is the be all, end all for you as a radio station, you’re going to drop this particular playlist and add Metallica, because it’s getting played in Hot Topic, and therefore it’s what she’s listening to now. The main point is, you have to be able to interpret the data and what is really going on. This is what radio people will complain about, and it’s always been a problem with the technology when you break it down: The sample size is still tiny. I don’t know the exact number, but I think that for the New York metropolitan area, which has 15 million people, there are maybe 500 people with people meters. One person could have an effect on over a million listeners.
It reminds me of the Arbitron-weighted Sound Scan scores you used to be able to manipulate.
DM:
Exactly. But again, for the programmers, this technology is their bread and butter and their report card, so being in that chair and trying to protect your job and be as safe as possible doesn’t seem like that bad of an idea.
I hear that a lot from people at the bigger companies. A lot of these decisions are governed by fear. It’s a shame it’s industry wide.
DM:
Also, I remember a story from the musician’s point of view, to go back to your question about whether local shows still mean anything. When I was at Sanctuary, I was having a conversation with an artist who was doing really well locally in L.A. His song was getting played on KROQ and on Indie 103 back when it was still on the air. Sanctuary had that record overseas, but this artist didn’t have a record deal in the U.S. Because of what was going on in L.A., all of a sudden there was a bidding war, and a bunch of different labels were going after this guy. And Sanctuary put in a bid because we already had him overseas.
I remember that time. Whenever KROQ would add something, the manager’s phone – even if it was just some kid in a college dorm – would be inundated with calls from label presidents.
DM:
Yeah, exactly. So Universal Republic, Epic and a few other labels were all in the running for this particular artist. And it was funny, because there was a friend of mine on the West Coast that knew this guy personally as well. When it finally was decided he was going to sign to a major label, we thought, “No hard feelings. We understand.” But we wanted to know why he had made that decision, all things considered. And he was smart enough to say, “Look, I’ve been a struggling singer/songwriter my entire career. A year from now, I may be a struggling singer/songwriter again, but with a really nice house and a really nice car.”
That’s exactly the right attitude. And get as many “please woo me” lobster dinners along the way. That was always my advice.
Do you still see influential stations adding music from smaller artists like that, or is it more infrequent now?
DM:
It’s more infrequent, unfortunately. Those kinds of stories are fewer and farther between sadly these days. I still do think there are situations and, as you said before, some people, like Monte and Avery at Universal still seek those things out. I think they might be looking in different areas vs. local airplay now.
Sure. They comb TuneCore and every other digital means out there. I’m sure they have deals in place with all kinds of people that have that data.
DM:
Exactly. If they see something selling that’s not signed to someone, they chase it.
Honestly, I have yet to see an example in which someone that was not on a major hired out different formats and independent radio companies without a major and then got a project to the echelons of the Top 10 on radio for any length of time or got any real celebrity status. At some point, the people that have achieved those levels had a major label step in. Can you cite some examples of people that have done well? I feel like I remember 10-15 years ago you could point to people like Ani Difranco that had succeeded in that way. You can point to a handful of people now that do well on their own, but it isn’t necessarily a radio story or someone who has built something and said, “OK, it’s time for radio. I’ll do it myself.”
DM:
It depends. There are success stories, but mostly in the rock formats these days. It’s mostly alternative or active rock or Triple A with singer/songwriters. Those formats are definitely more open to independent music than Top 40 and Hot AC. Those two and also country are very tough if you’re not signed to a major label.
I can’t speak to country, but is it true that both Hot AC and Top 40 tend to be formats that cull the bests of other formats?
DM:
Not so much anymore. It used to be that way. Now there’s so much product out there that they’ve become pretty formulaic, sadly. I just had this same conversation earlier today about a record and said, “We don’t play the #1 country record either, because it doesn’t fit what we do.” There is the occasional odd case – like Adele on Columbia, who has a record that doesn’t really fit to any particular formula. Of course, she’s on a major label, but the point is, her album doesn’t sound like the modern-day female pop records. She doesn’t do those rhythmic-leaning pop tunes you hear from most of the other pop females. And her songs don’t have a hip hop verse laid down in the middle of them. Adele is more old-school soul than anything else. But she’s been able to break through. And again, she’s one of the very few artists that you would see on the Top 40, Hot AC, the alternative and the Triple A charts. Those artists are very few and far between these days. I give total credit to the team at Columbia, because it didn’t sound like everything else on the radio. I know it wasn’t an easy thing to get done, and they’ve done a tremendous job with it.
I very much believe in what Ahmet Ertegun told me: “A hit will find a way.” I am aware that songs to songs are not apples to apples; they are very much apples to oranges. And doors just seem to open for songs or artists that things are going to happen for. Which kind of ammunition do you use as an independent hired by an artist when you approach programmers, other than just “Listen to it. It’s great”? What are the key performance indicators that music directors and program directors are looking for these days?
DM:
It’s a different question depending on the format. I think when it comes to pop artists and the pop formats in particular, program directors and music directors really want to see something else going on that pertains to the audience and will be familiar to the audience. Trying to start something from scratch is obviously very tough. But it’s a number of things: what the online presence is; whether there are digital sales; whether there’s been a crowd response; all of those other elements that lead into it.
So, it’s about the normal factors: the number of Facebook and Twitter followers; whether your comment page is active; etc.
DM:
Exactly. And on the rock, Triple A, alternative side, they like to see all that stuff, but at the same time there is more of an openness. If it’s a really good song, there are people that will give it a shot. And if there is a reaction, even better. There’s a song we’ve been working at alternative for the last six months now by a band called AWOL Nation. Red Bull hired us to start this thing last November. It was one of these “lightning in a bottle” songs you see once or twice a year. It was a case where the song went on the radio and the phone request lines went crazy immediately. The station called and said, “Let’s bring the band to town and do a show,” etc. After three weeks or airplay, they sold out 500-1,000 tickets. You can’t write a formula for something like that. Either it’s real or it’s not. It was one of those magic songs that people heard and went crazy for, and then wanted to see the band live.
I had no idea that song was doing so well.
DM:
It’s about to go Top 10 at Alternative. It’s taken us six months to get there, but we’re there. And the sales have been incredible too. When it first hit, you could see the sales in the marketplace double, triple, quadruple within a week of airplay. It was crazy.
Are you and programmers relying on BigChampagne at all to track the efficacy of these things?
DM:
Not so much anymore. When it first came out, BigChampagne definitely was a brand new toy that a lot of people looked at and played with. I don’t hear the numbers bandied about as much anymore. It’s part of the overall pitch. And when we have that type of information, we try to use it. I don’t think there’s a programmer out there that says, “Because of the BigChampagne numbers, I’m going to do something.” It comes back to what we do for a living: Someone always has to be first. There is something else out there that is used within radio called Mscore. It relates to those people meters. They can actually physically look at what song was playing when the listeners tuned in or tuned out. That gives you an Mscore at the end of the day. I know there was one record being used last year that was on an indie label. At the time they talked about it, it was the first independent release, not to go to #1 at Alternative, but to have the most weeks at #1 on the Alternative chart. It was a band called The Dirty Heads. It was in the early days of those Mscores when radio people were still trying to interpret what they meant. But it was one of those situations you could use when talking to a programmer. You could say, “In Washington, D.C., the Mscore was 100%, meaning nobody tuned out when that song was on.” That’s now the newest crutch, or the newest bane, depending on how you look at it. Because there are legitimately other hit records out there that for whatever reason early on in their lifetime get bad Mscores, and the record companies have to fight that. I hear about Mscores now a lot more than I used to hear about the BigChampagne numbers a couple years ago.
Do you have any general advice for musicians that want to get their music out there and on the radio?
DM:
Always go into it with the thought process that radio really is the icing on the cake. Without all the other things that you’ve been able to build for yourself – a viable online fan base, touring, etc., depending on what kind of artist you are – you don’t have a lot. Radio is a very fickle medium, and if you can’t depend on it 100%. Today’s superstar could be yesterday’s news. You can see it when you look at VH-1 specialty shows, which has made a living off one-hit wonders. If you’ve been able to build up a fan base that will stick with you, whether you have a song on the radio or not, you’re that much better off. I think it also comes back to the question, “What are you in it for?” Are you in it because you love music, and music is your life, or are you in it because you want to be seen falling down drunk on TMZ?
To learn more about Drew Murray and his work in radio, please visit the C05 website.
An older interview but a good one – I’ll be back next week with some new interviews and articles.
Meg MacDonald is a Triple A (AAA) independent radio promotion executive and the founder of M:M Music – one of the top independent promotion companies in the country. She has brought singles from brand new artists to radio as well as huge artists like Coldplay, Paul McCartney, Dave Matthews, Nora Jones and Jack Johnson to name a few and last year was named Triple A Independent Promotion Executive of the Year as voted on by Radio and Record labels at R&R.
How does it work for you when you’re working with an artist just starting out and want to bring them to radio?
MM:
We’re very careful in that we don’t pitch new artists to have us work them to radio. M:M Music is very well known in the industry and part of the reason for that is because we’re very careful about who we work. The last thing I ever want to be known as is someone who takes on any record. It has to make sense.
Most of the independent artists who come to us at the beginning we can’t take to radio. There is no argument that gets a radio station to add Joe Shmoe – no matter how good his record is – over the new Death Cab for Cutie or Foo Fighters. It doesn’t exist. When a project comes to us wanting to hire us, our approach quite honestly is to first try and talk them out of hiring us. We give them every reason to reconsider, every disclaimer with an un-edited lay of the land.
I’m not a saint – I want your money, of course I do, and I don’t want to send business across the street. However, there is a bigger picture to be considered. We’re not that company who says yes to everything, we’re very fortunate to be in a position where we can be selective with projects and that’s incredibly important to us because it gets personal. So many of our friends are musicians and at one time or another, every artist I know has been on the receiving end of the “Screw You” stick in this industry. It seems that everyone gets whacked……I will never be the one wielding that stick.
The conversations I have with these artists are, “Imagine you’re a program director and you get an average of 100 CD’s on your desk every week. What is going to make them add your song when they’ve got records on their desks from Warner Bros, Atlantic, Capital and Universal and here comes the new Pearl Jam, or David Gray or Colbie Caillat? Record labels are in the business of putting records out. Your record, as fantastic as it might be, is not going to get the kind of attention you want. If you were that PD would you add it to your playlist at this point? Be honest.”
If by the end of the phone call, if they still want to go to radio and we as a company agree we like the record, then we come on board. We focus first on commercial stations in smaller less competitive markets who tend to be more open to newer acts. We also put a major focus on non-commercial radio stations. Non-commercial (non-com) radio stations are pivotal for breaking artists that are not household names yet. By definition, non-com stations don’t play commercials, so there’s more real estate available on their playlists to take chances on newer acts, and their listeners expect it.
If we have caused them to reconsider radio as their first step, then we try and help them with their next move. Radio is not always supposed to come first. There are exceptions to every rule, but usually radio is not supposed to come first. Go out and tour. Do you have a management team? If they really are just all by themselves, we try to direct them to people that we trust – people that deal with smaller artists and that sort of thing. And we put them in the right direction there, because they’ll come back to us; because we were honest with them and didn’t just take their money.
Some of the artists we’ve turned down and given that advice to have gone out and hired other indies who took their records on and have spent their entire budgets getting absolutely nowhere. They’ve actually called us back and said, “I wish I would’ve listened to you.” And I’ve said, “I wish you had too, because now you don’t have the money to hire me.”
With all the politicking, the bottom line is, good music is good music. Because we work so closely with these radio stations and help them with everything from assisting them in booking their shows, helping out with giveaways, artist on airs, charity events etc., and because they know we’re not a promotion company that takes every record that comes our way, they do us the courtesy of listening to the records we ask them to. This is incredibly gratifying, and we’ve worked very hard to earn that reputation and gain their trust; they know that we’re just not pushing every piece of schlock on them because we’re getting paid to do so.
I guess the short answer to your question (God is it too late to give a short answer?) – we’re just very honest with the people we work with and paint a very realistic picture. If the artist chooses to go ahead with radio and we feel it’s a solid record, we’ll take it on, but only after we’ve spent time on the phone trying to talk them out of it. But in the end, you’re responsible, you’re a grown up, we’ve given you every possible reason to view all your options and if you still want to go to radio, we’re your best shot at airplay.
That’s very commendable. At what point would you advise a band that’s on the way up to actually go for radio?
MM:
It’s great when they already have a local or regional story, because for every band making it regionally there are 50 who are not. If you’re making a dent locally then you’re doing something right. I’ll ask for their story, what the audience is responding to, how many tickets are they selling, what size clubs are they playing etc.
Sales are still the yardstick by which we measure success. So many radio stations don’t do things like research; they can’t afford it. But they look at sales and say, “I’m the only radio station in town playing this band and they just sold 200 pieces this week.”
I’ll ask a band to give me at least one quote or one piece of valuable info that I can use with programmers because the worst music call I can do is, “Hey, here’s this band you’ve never heard of on a label you’ve never heard of … what do you think?” That’s a terrible music call. The artists, now more than ever, have a responsibility to provide the story. They need to create it and be out there working. They have to be able to come to me and say, “This is what I’ve got.”
I’m less familiar with the triple A format, but I remember the days when WCPR in Biloxi, MS was playing a little unknown band called Three Doors Down and a hard rock station in Florida was playing “Pity for a Dime” by Creed and that launched their career.
MM:
It does happen, but it’s certainly more rare than in the past. Radio is still the main conduit for music and breaking new acts and they expect the artist to come with more than they ever have before because there are so many other options for listeners. The competition is fierce with options like Satellite radio and the enumerable ways in which to get music from the internet. Listeners now can easily create their own playlists for their cars, they can tune into the all 80’s channel if they want. It’s certainly a lot different than when I was growing up balancing my tape recorder up against my hi-fi motioning wildly for my sisters to shut up so I could record my favorite song. Music on demand makes programmers jobs much more challenging than ever before. But sales speak loudly. So does press. And it significantly helps when both are there for radio to see.
Do you think radio still has the impact it used to have?
MM:
Radio still breaks artists, they are still the gatekeeper. There was a recent article in Billboard that used research from the Council for Research Excellence (CRE). What it did was dispel a lot of the myths about how people listen to music. There’s the myth that people don’t listen to radio anymore; according to this study, broadcast radio has the broadest reach and command, the most listening time. Radio has 80% reach and an average of 120 minutes per day from listeners. There was a myth that young people don’t listen to the radio. The CRE found that 79% of listeners from 18-34 listen to broadcast radio and average 104 minutes per day. Radio’s daily reach for younger listeners was only slightly lower in 35-54. It was a talk about not just about radio but also about CD’s. The myth is, nobody listens to CD’s and cassettes anymore. CD’s and cassettes are second in reach behind broadcast radio and get an average of 72 minutes today from users. History shows us that progress does not mean the death of the past. Radio was not the end of newspaper, television was not the end of radio, the internet was not the end of anything.
For us, it’s just validating what we already knew, radio is absolutely the key. People listen to radio, and yes people have more choices than ever before on where they get their music. That’s fine, because it’s challenged radio to rise to the occasion; and they have. Studies show that radio sells. Radio breaks. Where did Nora Jones break out of? Radio. Where did Jack Johnson break? Radio. Colbie Calliat was a combination; she had a huge Myspace following, but she didn’t become known national until radio. Radio is still the key to all of this.
Have you had a story about anybody that was kind of DIY that got radio’s attention with the statistics they were able to capture online?
MM:
One of the most interesting stories to me is Regina Spektor. She is one of the hardest artist to work at radio. Yet Regina debuted in the Top Ten nationally in album sales in almost every market. She sells out venues like the Ryman Auditorium in Nashville, and it’s like pulling teeth to get radio to play her. They hear her sound as polarizing. Our job is to get it past their ears. Warner Bros conducted on-site interviews with fans coming into and coming out of Regina Spektor shows asking how they came to hear her and become fans. Overwhelmingly they said through Pandora. So, there is a responsibility for radio to not let themselves get beaten…I love the passion that this format has, and that they take risks; sometimes it’s just more of a challenge to get them to take a chance on something even when it has a tremendous story behind it. It can be frustrating but is also understandable. Like I said, it’s a lot more competitive out there and that comes with a whole load of caution that wasn’t there 10 or 15 years ago.
When calling radio do you go directly to the MD (Music Director) and the PD (Program Director)?
MM:
Yes.
Do you bring records to DJs or to the local show guy?
MM:
The local shows we work are mainly for the non-commercial radio stations. For the commercial radio stations, we go to the program directors and the music directors. For the non-commercial stations, the non-commercial person on my staff is Crystal Ann Lea, and she’s fantastic. She knows these non-com guys in and out and she works the specialty programs. For example with a station like KCRW, in Los Angeles, she’ll work music directly to the folks at “Morning Becomes Ecclectic”. So important is non-com to us that we’re the only independent promotion company with a dedicated, non-commercial radio person. That’s all she calls. You cannot be as effective on a music call if you’re pressed for time because you have too many stations to call. If we tried to cover two formats – commercial AAA and non-commercial AAA – there wouldn’t be enough hours in the day. It’s our obligation to give the records we’re on the best chance, and dividing up the stations and formats allows us to take the time to speak in depth with radio rather than rushing through a list and getting to the next call.
Is there a palpable effect at these smaller non-commercial radio stations on a career?
MM:
Absolutely. These non-commercial radio stations take chances because they are publicly owned. They don’t have corporate owners breathing down their necks; they are responsible to their communities. The public radio listener is a very specific type of music lover. They support their radio stations and take pride in them. And radio takes pride in bringing them new stuff. They’re not going to settle for just some play list they can hear anywhere.
With other formats, if you drive across the country listening to just that format, you’re going to hear the same songs and all the stations will sound very very similar. That’s works for them, and that’s fine. But the wonderful thing about Triple A, commercial and non-com, is that if you cross the country you will hear no two stations that sound alike. Listen to KPRI in San Diego, and then listen to KTCZ in Minneapolis. Listen to WRLT in Nashville and WCOO in Charleston. Listen to WFUV in New York and KINK in Portland. You’d never believe they were in the same format. BDS and Mediabase both produce and print charts for Triple A, same as they do all the other formats. But the difference is ours is the only chart where you’re going to see Train, Kings of Leon and the Foo Fighters alongside artists like Bob Schneider, Maia Sharp, Rodrigo y Gabriela and NeedtoBreathe. It’s eclectic as hell and it should be – so are people’s musical tastes.
Do you think that’s why AAA has expanded? Is it beyond the viability of the older music audience? Do you think it’s because they’re able to be so flexible with what they play?
MM:
I think the format has done so well over the past few years because the program directors recognized the potential for success in the Triple A format and embraced their role as tastemakers. They knew that if you want to expose new music, you also have to play the hits and they balance that beautifully. They have had to prove their success, they did and the labels paid attention. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You treat something as important, and all of a sudden it becomes important.
It’s a different world. I could get Nic Harcourt (Now at KCRW) on the phone as an intern at Atlantic, because nobody cared about WDST. It was a very different world.
MM:
It is a different world, because when Atlantic calls us or Warner Bros calls us, and we’re going over targets, they are talking to us not just about the major markets but they absolutely do care about the smaller markets as well. Maybe not so much on the huge acts, but certainly on the ones we are breaking. We took Serena Ryder’s first single and it was Top Ten. We took Eric Hutchinson’s first single, #1; his second one was Top Five. This is done in AAA. AAA is also a building block to Hot AC. Hot AC sells more records than AAA overall and Hot AC has a bigger reach, but do you know where they find many of their hits? Triple A.
That could be said about your non-com vs. com radio stations, No?
MM:
Yes. We have a responsibility to not waste program directors’ time. I think one of the least important things a program director and music director have to do during the week is deal with music calls. It’s incredibly important to us, because that’s what we’re doing. But they are dealing with less staff and are running a company. They don’t have time to take five calls about a record that they’re never going to play. We have to make our calls count so we listen to our stations online constantly, look at their playlists, read Soundscan so we can see what the top ten albums are in their respective markets. What’s gone up or down etc. You have to be educated before you get these guys on the phone; otherwise they’re not going to take your call. You can’t just randomly say, “What do you think of this?” These program directors have a huge responsibility, and we have to respect that and not waste their time.
Do you have any advice for somebody that is selecting an indie to work their record?
MM:
Just be very aware and know about any company you’re calling to work your record. There are a lot of people out there who need business in this economy so it’s very tough. Don’t listen to just what the person is saying on the phone. Hear what they have to say, but then you need to call around. You need to ask your friends and do your research. It is your responsibility. It’s incredibly important to know who you’re hiring. Look at their website and what they do, and look through the fluff. Look for the person that’s going to say, “No” to you. Look for the person that is going to be honest with you.
On a very small level, before somebody’s ready to go to someone like you for a national campaign, what’s some advice on approaching local radio?
MM:
Don’t just call and say, “Hey, we’re in your backyard.” So are 30 other bands. Approach it as, “I would be a value on your playlist because” and then insert your reason. It has to be more than just, “I grew up listening to you.” That’s nice, but that doesn’t help the radio station. This is a business. Give them ammunition and a reason to play you. Offer to play a free show for them. In your approach, be very respectful. Don’t just say, “I’m local.” Say, “This is where we play, this is the number of tickets we sell” and ask if there is local programming. Offer to do a free show for them to get them interested right away. And don’t be a pest. It is not their job to play your music. It is your job to convince them it’s in their best interest to play your music. Or hire us to do it for you!
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