This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
(And the Other Top 4 Reasons Your Email Isn’t Being Returned)
I am a big believer in doing as much legwork on your own as you possibly can before reaching out to music industry executives. That being said- there comes a time in every artist’s career where they are going to have to approach someone in the industry to get to that proverbial next level. Let me assure you that there is a right way of doing this … and several wrong ways of doing this. Sadly, many artists repeatedly write emails that go right into the trash because of very basic mistakes that can be easily avoided.
Obviously the first and most basic rule of the approach is “Don’t approach someone with a cold email if you can avoid it;” knowing someone who knows the person you are trying to get in touch with can help a great deal. However, I realize that going in with a strong referral isn’t always an option. Consider the top 5 suggestions below when you’re putting together your next cold email.
1) Form Letters
Sure, you may be able to get your message out to hundreds or even thousands of people. But if people feel like you are sending them a form letter (don’t confuse this with a newsletter – that’s a whole other blog post) about a specific need or a desired business relationship, then it’s over. No one likes to feel like they are just a name on a list. And speaking of names on a list, sending an email to yourself and cc-ing rather than bcc-ing everyone won’t win you any favors from people who hold positions where both bot-generated and musician-generated spam mail comes with the territory.
It is perfectly acceptable to cut and paste part of a letter to a certain type of executive, but at least take the time to customize the first few sentences and address them by name. Also, let the person you are contacting know specifically why you are contacting them. What makes you think you are a good fit for what they do and why? Let’s just say you are looking to approach a blogger. Saying something like, “I just read your story on this other artist and I really like the way it was written. I thought that since you liked what they do you might appreciate my new single…” is much more likely to get a response than a press release about your new product addressed to no one in particular.
2) Poor Presentation
This is so common it boggles the mind. I often get emails from people in which their names are not obvious from the email address and not included in the “from” field by their email program. On top of that, they don’t bother to introduce themselves or put any kind of signature indicating who they are or where they are from. From my vantage point, I am getting a message from SlappyMcJellyPants@Yahoo.com. The rest of the email had better be stellar (or at least very funny) for me to consider responding.
*As a side note, I’m damn easy to get a hold of. I am in the business of selling music marketing services so it is part of my job to be as reachable as possible. That said, it isn’t hard to tell from presentation who is taking their career and image seriously and who is not. If there are people out there who are having trouble getting a hold of me, then they can forget about people who are really difficult to contact cold like A&R people, Music Supervisors and music journalists. *
Another huge issue in presentation is spelling and grammar. Look, I’m no grammar Nazi and I would be completely lost without spell check, but reaching out to a stranger for help and then sending them what looks more like a text to your girlfriend is probably not a great idea. This all might sound silly, but I have found a huge correlation between the way people present themselves on email and how together their career is, and I respond to emails in order of the likelihood that I am dealing with someone who is serious (and willing to work!)
Lastly on the presentation front: Saying you have talent is meaningless. Executives hear this all day long. The best thing you can do to get someone’s attention is to make a concentrated effort on your pitch prior to crafting any email and running it by friends and peers that can be honest with you. What turns my head is not when people talk about their talent, but when they describe the achievements that they have earned with their talent. Are you drawing well or playing with more established artists? Are you working with anyone who has great credits? Did you win a local contest? Do you have a ton of social media followers and an obvious dialogue with fans online? Do you have a mailing list with a ton of people on it? These are the things that will get people’s attention.
3) Lack of Research
You can much more easily begin a personal relationship with someone when you have specifics about their job function and their professional history. With blogs, Linkedin and any of the other resources available online these days there is no excuse not to have a good understanding of what people have done in the past and on which projects they have worked. Knowing these things can go a long way in adding a personal touch to the email you are sending someone. I am always flattered that people took the time to read about me before reaching out. Admittedly I’m usually annoyed when people don’t bother to read anything and just ask for help without knowing who I am or what I do. And in my case, all that information is provided in a link right next to the contact link. I get intoxicated calls on my Google Voicemail at 3am on a Sunday from people wanting a record deal (from me … even though I don’t run a label) or want me to manage them (I don’t manage artists). My favorite call to date was someone asking for Jay-Z’s phone number (which I still don’t have) and then offering me 50% of the guaranteed collaboration that would result from me giving it to him.
Beyond the research on any one individual though it is important that you also research understand the mindset of a person who is the gatekeeper (Music supervisors, A&R people, Publishers, major journalists etc.) of big opportunities. Firstly, they can’t possibly return all the correspondences or listen to all of the music they get. Secondly – and this is especially true with big organizations – virtually no one executive makes 100% of the decision about a song getting placed in a movie, getting a major write up in a big magazine or getting someone signed to a record label or publisher. Damn near every executive these days has a boss, a client or someone else who guards the purse strings to contend with before pulling the trigger on a decision that could really help your career as an artist. The second part of the job is important to note also, because the easiest part of a gatekeeper’s job is getting in a steady flow of music to pick from. The hardest part of a gatekeeper’s job is keeping a gatekeeper job. It’s easy to think of these people as people who sit around listening to music all day on a pedestal and then giving a Ceasar-esque thumbs up or thumbs down. The politics and juggling involved with keeping everyone happy internally and making sure your external relationships are sound in case you are out of a gig (there is a high turnover rate with creative jobs like this) are almost full-time jobs in and of themselves. Long story short, like these people or hate them, it’s important to know before you approach them that they are often pretty stressed out.
4) Unreasonable Expectations
The next time you go out on a first date… or hell, the next time you encounter someone attractive from a distance, you should briskly walk up to them, say “Hello my name is _____,” and while heading towards them at an uncomfortable pace (preferably without letting them reply to your hello), you should attempt to French kiss them. This is actually best done when starting with your tongue fully extended from a distance of 20 yards or more at a full sprint.
* Editor’s note: Actually, don’t try this. I am not responsible for the whiplash, broken jaw or harassment suits that may follow if you do*
Now you might be thinking, “Wow that was unexpected/inappropriate/ scary…” Yes, indeed. It is. What is my point? Well, my point is that bluntly asking for a huge favor, a contract, a partnership, a record deal or any other lasting business relationship from a stranger in a first email is equally inappropriate (although admittedly it is considerably less creepy). I can’t tell you how many emails I get without any information, background or even someone’s name that say something to the effect of “Help! I am really talented and I need you to manage me.” Not that I manage people, but if I did, would I want to partner with someone who was willing to blindly decide that I was the one to guide their career without having met me or had a phone call? Boundaries, people!
Those are some extreme examples obviously, but the real point is, take your time to get to know someone and what they do. Breaking the ice with an email never instantly leads to a partially executed contract on your doorstep. It’s supposed to lead to building a relationship and getting someone to take you seriously enough to give your material their time and attention.
5) Undefined Goals
Vague emails are really hard to respond to. A very common request I get (and I’m sorry, I know I reference this a great deal) is about “getting to the next level”. Do I understand in a general way what it means? Sure. Do I know specifically what people mean by that and what they need or if I am a good fit for getting these people to said next level? No, I don’t have a clue.
Before asking someone else, make sure that you have clearly defined your goals. Many people respond with knee-jerk responses like, “I want a publishing deal,” or “I need a booking agent.” It’s important to break down these wants into what most people actually mean. What people forget is that for every brilliant partnership, there are plenty of lousy ones. And many of the lousy ones result from people not taking the time to really think through their needs and desires.
When you say, “I need a publishing deal,” do you mean, “I would like…” (‘cause really, people – we need food, water, shelter and good health; lighten up). Don’t you really mean, “I want someone to help me get my music placed in film and TV and arrange collaborations and co-writes with other artists I like and respect”? Maybe it means something else to you. But whatever it means to you, write it out for yourself. Be specific without making a plan that hinges on the participation of a person or a business to which you don’t have access.
Of course, it need not apply to only publishing deals; it can be for whichever goals you have for yourself. One of the most encouraging things you can do in the eyes of a gatekeeper is to demonstrate that with or without their help, you are making progress in getting where you want to go.
I realize I am no longer a gatekeeper but I certainly sat behind a desk where dreams went to die for many years. Still – if you would like to check out a more current A&R person’s vantage point on the approach check out my interview with Jason Jordan VP of A&R at Hollywood Records – here.
This is part two of a two part interview with Andy Karp a manager and marketing executive by way of a very successful career in A&R at Atlantic Records (Signed Kid Rock, Simple Plan, Click 5, Porcupine Tree, Skillet and many others). If you missed part one you can check that out – here.
I know after you left Atlantic you could’ve gone back into another label job somewhere but you opted not to. I know because we have spoken of it in the past that we both find some major flaws in the label system today. From your vantage point as someone who was enormously successful at major labels – what do you think is the most flawed about the way these labels are operating today?
AK:
I don’t know what the most flawed thing is, because there are a lot of flaws. But they are also in a very tough spot. There’s no obvious answer to fix their problems that anybody can give them. I tend to think more philosophically about these things. I think it’s better if you talk more about the major labels in general and not specifically about Atlantic, because Atlantic is one of the major labels that’s doing particularly well. They have a much more pronounced digital strategy than any other major by leaps and bounds. That’s an area where they’re being very forward thinking.
The question is more from an A&R perspective. This may not be fixable. The majors have a huge problem, which is they carry enormous overhead and some of them still have 150-200 employees. It’s a very difficult burden to carry in this kind of environment. Philosophically, my thoughts tend to be that when people are rejecting your product and the vast majority of the music you put out, the thing you should do is go left. And it seems like majors are instead doubling down on mainstream stuff. The problem is not that it’s mainstream. There are not a lot of people out there that are bigger suckers for a good pop song than me. The problem is that happens when you are operating only within very fine-tuned parameters and parameters that are shrinking and whatever Top 40 is playing now – Top 40 is a format that is reflective of its audience and a completely research-driven format and the audience is fickle and changes very quickly and things fall out of favor very quickly.
Right now, Top 40 is incredibly urban focused, whereas a year ago it wasn’t nearly as much. If you’re a major, what you’re doing is focusing on acts that can fit right between those very fine lines. But the problem is that between the time when you find the acts and record the music and find the songs you think are hits, those parameters can change. The creative part of it is very expensive now because it has to fit. If it doesn’t fit, you don’t have a shot. You put your track out and promote it through these big media driver approaches that people have always done – you make a video and work it and spend money on radio promotion and fly the bands around to have appearances at radio stations. What ends up happening is you sell a boatload of singles. It’s a really tough bargain for most labels. The problem is they have conditioned themselves to operate in this fashion, and I don’t know that they have the wherewithal to try a different approach.
They are instead doing 360s, and most of the labels are not capable of exploiting 360 rights. I don’t even have a philosophical problem with 360 deals as a person that is outside of it and manages artists, provided they can exploit the rights with best in class services. Most of the majors haven’t proven they can do that. The truth is, most of the majors should’ve been asking for 360 type deals 25 years ago when they were writing big checks for tour support. Now they are asking for more rights and giving less in return. And the problem is, it’s survival for them. I understand why they are trying to do it, but it makes it all the less likely that any band with a real following will want to do that type of deal without getting a massively front-loaded deal. And truthfully, if you’re asking for 360 deals while focus is on the type of acts that sell singles that nobody is ever going to want to go see in concert, you’re minimizing that chances that those 360 rights, those merch rights, are going to be valuable, because who wants to buy t-shirts for acts that don’t have any real staying power? It’s an odd Faustian bargain. I would think you’d be much more likely to want to spend money to build the live base of things that are left of center. Those are the acts that have real fans.
So how is your new company operating given that this is the environment that we all deal with?
Artist Haven is a management branding entity. Our goal is purely focused on fan building. That’s essentially it. We are very much of the belief that the future of the entertainment business – not just the music business – is going to be simply catering to people that care. And this is not rocket science. It’s not like we’re the first people to come across this idea. But if you look at the landscape, we have just been talking about how majors have this problem where they are catering to people that are fans of one song rather than of an artist. People that are fans of artists spend money on that act. People that are fans of songs only buy those songs.
Is there anything artists can do to make people buy into them as a part of culture vs. a disposable song? Is that something you can manipulate or is just something some people have?
AK:
Some people do have it and some people don’t, that’s a fact. That’s one of those things you become hyper aware of doing A&R. If you don’t recognize that, you’re going to be in A&R for about a year and then will be off working at Pluck University (*** This is Andy mocking the fast food chicken job that I had prior to being his intern and then assistant- I was 19…shut up…***). I think it all starts with music. That’s it. If your music is not great, and if people aren’t connecting with it, it won’t matter. In terms of being a creative person trying to figure out how to make your art better and perfect your art, you want to be different and distinctive, but at the same time, you have to be observant and see which songs people react to at your gigs and know why they react to them. If you have a tune that the crowd always goes crazy about, and that song is a legitimate expression of what your band is about then you should write more things like that. Look at these songs and see why they work. It’s about never taking your audience for granted, treating your fans like investors instead of like customers. They are customers, but I like to think of them more like investors. The reason “investors” is a term that works for me is because people are really passionate about the bands and the artists they love. When the music really represents times in your life and is a soundtrack to you, you have a very emotional investment in the creative output of that artist. That’s why I like to think of it as being more than just a customer. I think in fact using the term investor is less crass and callous than calling someone a customer.
I never liked the word either- I agree with you.
AK:
What you simply have to do is, always be true to yourself, because people react to authenticity. In doing that, you also have to be really smart and understand how the relationship between artist and fan works. It’s a weird thing, because fans expect an enormous amount from you and have a lot of impressions built up that may not always be grounded in reality. You have to make sure that you’re never hosing them. If you’re an act and on a major and put out a record, and then your label wants to put out a deluxe version of that record because it finally started to sell, that’s nice that you can jack the price up a couple dollars and get more fans out of people that just bought the single, but you just stuck it to a bunch of fans that bought the first record first by putting that deluxe version out.
Said by somebody that has clearly been stung by that exact ruse.
AK:
Right. I think it’s terrible. It’s an incredibly short-sighted approach. You can certainly say it’s just one thing, but it doesn’t take a lot to make people distrust your motives. That doesn’t mean you can’t make money, or that fans always want the artists they care about to exist in this little vacuum, and nobody else should know about it. It really is more about whether people believe that the music is authentic and is coming from the artist’s heart and is a real expression of what the artist is about, and whether or not the fans feel that the artist is taking them for granted. Are their ticket prices more expensive? Did they pay more to be part of a fan club and were supposed to get the rights to get prime ticketing, and then you went to the show and found out you paid four times what some other guy sitting right next to you paid for the ticket, because he got it late when the broker opened up seats? That’s the kind of stuff that can be hard to prevent but really leaves a bad taste in fans’ mouths. Make your merch better than other people’s merch. If you spend $20 on a shirt, don’t make your t-shirt $45. It’s about understanding little things like that, and that the trust the investor puts in the artist is a sacred contract. If you are dismissive of it, they will leave. It doesn’t take a brain surgeon to figure that out. Think about the bands you love yourself. How would you like to be treated or rewarded for your consistent patronage and support of their music? That’s really it.
You’re totally right. Now, you were telling me about how you are building fan bases with Artist Haven. What else is going on with that?
AK:
We’re not just doing music. I think if there’s one thing that’s particularly interesting these days is that anyone that creates content, and anyone that creates media is all in the same boat. We’re all floating in the same river, which is trying to get people to pay attention and pay for things.
I knew we (Content creators and the industries surrounding them) were all in trouble when I heard the porn business was struggling too.
AK:
I remember reading an article about that, and I was pretty surprised by the number of analogous problems they were having with record companies. If you think about it, they were approaching it the same way. They were policing copyright violations, people using their content without paying for it, creating packages that have additional content. It’s actually kind of fascinating, and somebody should probably write an article about it for Atlantic or The New Yorker or Vanity Fair or something like that. But anyone that produces content is in this boat. The bottom line for us is that nobody can predict exactly what systems are going to be in five or ten years. I tend to think it’s going to be subscription based, where music is going to be a service, and it’s all streamed. That would seem to make a lot of sense, but we’re certainly nowhere near that happening. I can’t envision music being free. We’re trying to take a unique approach to every artist we handle. In some cases it may make a lot of sense to give an artist’s music away. In other cases, it may make sense not to and to focus on very elaborate packaging and content to sell to fans that want vinyl or surround-sound mixes on Blu-Ray. I do think that part of the problem is because those of us at majors – and I include myself in this because I was there, whether I believe in it or not – really devalued music over the last 15 years. As a result, we deserve part of the blame for the mess we’re all in. I think it will ultimately come down to figuring out who your audience is and serving them somehow. If it means giving away music to get more fans, then great, if it will build another area of your business. But we’re not afraid to do whatever it takes to create that audience. At the end of the day, it’s always going to be about finding ways to sell things to people that care. So, if we give things away it’s going to be to build a different area of the business.
Artist Haven is handling a couple different acts. I have a self-help author, a band called Cynic, a guitar player named Justin King. They’re all very different, and none of them are Top 40. It doesn’t mean we wouldn’t work with something Top 40, but it means we’re trying to focus on projects where if we do our job right and they do their jobs right we can help our clients find people that are really passionate about what they do.
To learn more about Andy Karp and his new company please visit Artist Haven and check out his Jazz Quartet.
Andy Karp is a manager and marketing executive by way of a nineteen-year career at Atlantic Records. He is also a gifted multi-instrumentalist and one of the few people I know who can play a Chapman Stick. Andy started in the Radio Promotion department and moved into A&R where he eventually became The Executive Vice President / head of A&R. During his tenure Andy signed Kid Rock, Simple Plan, Skillet, The Click Five, Porcupine Tree, Skillet and David Garza. My first real job in the industry was as Andy’s assistant at Lava / Atlantic. Andy was kind enough to take the time to share with me his perspective on the ever-changing business and catch me up with what he is up to at his new company Artist Haven. This is part one of a two part interview.
Tell me about how you got started in the music business, and how you got started playing music.
AK:
I started playing music as a little kid. I took piano lessons from age 7 to 18. I probably didn’t practice until I was about 13, but my mom was very patient and tolerant, and I kept playing anyway. I started playing bass when I was 14 or 15 and drums a year later. I played sax for a few years in the school orchestra, and all sorts of other odd things. I played the vibra-harp for a year. I just loved music, and wasn’t particularly good at it, although by the time I stopped taking piano lessons, I was a fairly decent piano player. But I was going to college at that point, and I felt you could only play so many instruments, so I focused on bass. I never really took myself seriously s a drummer until the last couple years. I was studying music and theory in college and some pretty avant-garde music, and engineering and all these kinds of things. I knew I really wanted to play. That was my biggest goal.
Once I graduated, I started playing in bands and had the misfortune of not being a really great singer. If you’re not a singer, you’re always going to be reliant on finding the right band at the right time and the right vehicle for you to do what you want to do. And that adds a lot more variables to it – as if there weren’t enough already. I had done an internship at MCA in their A&R and publishing divisions when I was a junior, and as I was playing in bands, I thought, “Maybe I can get a job at a label” so I could move out of my mom’s while I was looking for the perfect musical situation. I managed to get a job in the mail room of Profile Records and spent six weeks there hauling giant mail bags a couple blocks a few times a day filled with hip hop records. I managed to get a job as a gopher in the promotion department of Atlantic Records. I started there in September of 1989, and I stayed at Atlantic for 19 years. That’s really the story.
Obviously there are a few little details missing. You don’t become head of A&R just hanging around for 19 years, at least not in my recollection.
AK:
(Laughs) Back in the old days, if you stayed there long enough, they eventually just gave you a department to run. But, no, I spent about a year as a gopher and then another 5 ½ years as the assistant to the head of the promotions department – Andrea Ganis – who is still there and was a great mentor and friend to me and still is. When Lava Records started in 1995, Jason Flom hired me to do A&R for him. The reason he hired me was simply because I was fortunate enough to have an encyclopedic knowledge of bands and producers and engineers and all kinds of stuff. I don’t know quite why that was, but I think my brain just decided it was going to remember something, and that’s what it was. It might have been better if it was quantum mechanics, but unfortunately it was engineers of Scorpions Records.
The editorial note here is that I’ve actually seen you engaged in a dialogue with Matt Pinfield, and I was terrified.
AK:
Matt’s pretty good. He’s a good guy, and we always have a lot of fun talking about obscure alt rock or punk bands. He is kooky like me in that same way. But Flom hired me because I was somebody that knows all these bands and figured I would eventually run into something that was pretty good. He gave me a shot. I didn’t sign anything for a year and a half. I was very fortunate that Lava had acts. And you were there then, Rick, so you know how it worked. The first artist I signed was David Garza, who you and I both think is brilliant. And the second act was Kid Rock. And when Kid Rock broke, it went from there. It was a good second act to sign. It worked out well for everyone.
Clearly that gave you more chances to sign more artists as an A&R guy. When you sign a successful act like Kid Rock, they tend to be more lenient about letting you sign more.
AK:
That’s true. But I never took a lot of swings. There are two very definitive schools of thoughts in terms of how you approach A&R, whether at a label or at a management company. A&R is such a broad term now. It really is essentially quality control in the modern context and creative direction. That is applicable in a lot of different areas. One school of thought is that you can’t have hits if you don’t put records out, so therefore you should sign as many things that are good as you can, because at least in the context of major labels at that time, if you have big success at anything, people don’t remember the failures. If you have one success out of eight things you put out, people don’t remember the other seven. But that was never my school of thought, and part of it was because I didn’t like enough stuff to do it that way.
So of the guys in the last 20-30 years that have sold a sizable chunk of records, I’d be willing to bet I’ve signed fewer things than almost all of them. And it’s not saying I’m so good or have such a good batting average. It’s just saying that I had a different approach. One of the things that held me back in the music business was the fact that I couldn’t approach acts inherently dishonestly and tell them things I didn’t sincerely believe, like, “You’re going to be hugely successful, and here’s what we’re going to do.” If I tell that to 10 bands, you know there could be a very good shot that you’re just bullshitting to 10 different acts. It’s so hard to have anything that’s successful, and truthfully, most A&R people don’t even have one thing that’s successful. That’s just empirical. But I never felt comfortable going and talking up nonsense to close deals. I was more from the “Look, I really believe in this, and we’re going to do everything we can do. You know what the chances of success are. What I can promise you is that I’m going to do everything I can possibly do, give you the best advice I can possibly give you and do everything to steer you through the label and give you the best shot humanly possible.” That was an approach that I felt was the morally right thing to do, and it worked for me because it was consistent with my personality. And I never wanted to be one of those clichés.
It was certainly not the pervasive methodology of the trade.
AK:
Certainly not at the time. Things are very different now because I’ve been out of the major label system for two years, and happily so. But this is the first time in my memory where signing to a major is not necessarily one of the top goals for most artists. That’s a fairly unusual place for labels to be.
What’s funny is, I kind of feel like – and I do have some statistics to back this up in terms of keyword search volume, and I can’t say whether these are real musicians or not – but people searching online, “how to get a record deal” is off the charts whereas “how to market and sell my music” is much less. I realize that’s not a representative sample, but I think most musicians feel about the labels like most men feel about Tila Tequila. “Oh my God She’s disgusting, but I don’t think I’d turn down a date with her if it was offered.”
AK:
That’s a fair point. But I would simply ask whether that is an accurate predictor. I wonder if you took that kind of a poll of the acts that are best positioned to be offered deals and have followings and can sustain some kind of independent business, whether it’s small or large, and have empirical proof that people care about their music feel the same way. That might be a better gauge.
No question. I was not basing it on a representative sample. But I do think it’s funny that the prevailing mindset still is, “Please save me. Please escalate me to stardom.”
AK:
It’s interesting, because there probably has never been a time when that kind of “please hand it to me” attitude was a guarantee of failure, and now it is. Fifteen years ago it probably wasn’t that way. At least you could get to a certain level. The point is, I’ve seen it so distinctly that the people that work the hardest get the luckiest. It’s never been clearer. The big drivers of media become less influential. MTV has whatever audience it has, but it certainly isn’t a music audience. Commercial radio is losing influence every year as loses listeners. Young people don’t consume music through those big drivers anymore. As you start to see those things shift, it’s become super clear that nobody’s guaranteed to have a career. We used to be able to take people if they were really good and turn them into stars if you had the right material and the right look. Now, if that stuff succeeds it’s almost anomalous.
My take on the business, and mind you, I was out long before you were, and I definitely want to talk about what you saw changing. I was really out of the real system by 2004. But I found that even during my tenure it started to switch. It was less about A&R and more about M&A (Mergers and Acquisitions). It started to be about labels looking for existing businesses to acquire and fund. Is that apt?
AK:
I think that’s a fair point, if you look at your band as a business. We didn’t sit around in a meeting and say, “We’re only signing bands that have followings and can sell 75,000 records independently or make at least $200,000 per year independently.” No one sat around and figured that out. But if you talk about mergers and acquisitions, there’s a philosophical shift that happened, where the big euphemism became branding. Sometime in the mid-2000s branding became a business and an approach. It became a noun and a verb. When that shift happened, bands started to think of themselves as businesses, and labels started to look at bands as businesses just as they were looking into buying smaller labels that had a niche and could provide them acts that had a sales base and a fan base and could give them credibility with an audience that you can’t have as a major label because you serve every kind of consumer. They were also looking into buying into acts the same way they would buy into labels. That was a change philosophically. But now you see record sales continue to dwindle, and there’s logic to that approach, even if it wasn’t spoken and intentional.
Does that mean the shift on the labels side had become less about early grassroots development? Did it become about taking bands that are self sustaining to the next level, rather than taking bands from nowhere, to self sustaining and then upwards?
AK:
People love to say there’s no grassroots marketing or band development at labels. But I don’t think that’s really fair. That stuff does happen. It just is a question of whether or not they are good at it. In majors, there are some people that are very conscientious and incredibly hard working and very dedicated to their acts. I think those general dismissive comments that are frequently made about majors are not true. I spent enough time there to know there are people who are very conscientious about stuff like that. There are also people whose jobs are not to worry about that stuff and are about how to make the trains run on time and make the balance sheet. That’s the tension. Don’t think it doesn’t exist at indie labels too. Indie labels have to sell records and keep their lights on unless they are funded by someone that is independently wealthy and it’s a pure passion play. Those are businesses. It’s just that the tension is much more glaring in a major label system.
The grassroots thing and long-term marketing does work, but it has to be really under the radar. If you take a band like Porcupine Tree. Porcupine Tree is a band where we did three records on Atlantic and Lava Atlantic. The band just played Radio City Music Hall. Now they are licensed to Roadrunner. If you talked to them, I think they would tell you that the labels never really did much for them. I think we definitely contributed in some ways and not in others. In terms of a grassroots story, that’s a pretty distinct grassroots success. You’re talking about a band that had a large catalog and a small following in Europe and no following in the U.S., and now they can draw 5500 people in New York and have a business where if you had a 360 deal with them, you’d be very happy. I think the problem is that you take things like that that are left of center, and very often there is a lot of pressure to get those things out of the system because they don’t make sense. They don’t want you to waste people’s time on things that are in left field. And I tend to think the opposite way. When you’re trying to build something long term, the stuff that is most likely to find an audience is the stuff that’s a little skewed and not the stuff that’s right down the middle. If you can take a pop act and build an act, if the songs are good enough, I think that’s great and you can do that. But I think you’re more likely to find success with stuff that’s quirkier. And I think it’s too bad, because Porcupine Tree’s success could’ve been something that Atlantic could’ve trumpeted and taken a great deal of pride in, but there were really never a lot of supporters.
You can read the 2nd part of the article HERE.
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Check out more information on Andy’s company here or follow Artist Haven on Twitter.
I came across the first music business article I ever wrote recently. It was 1998 and I was about twenty four years old working at Lava / Atlantic Records at the time. I had just been made an A&R representative after years of sneaking into clubs at night and working as an A&R assistant during the day.
Me in 98' - Thin body / thick head.
I’m posting this not because any of it is relevant today but because I think it’s important to remember where the business was just a short time ago – labels were the only game in town… Musicians were still frustrated – they just had better scapegoats back then. If you need to get in the 1998 mindset just watch Titanic or listen to Harvey Danger’s “Flagpole Sitta”…
Google in 1998
The Following was originally published on Starpolish.com as an article called “The Art of Showcasing”.
I don’t know if any of the links still work. It had been edited at least once by someone else who updated my place of employment to Elektra (several years later) and added some MC Hammer reference that still baffles me. If this is your first visit to this blog… you’d best try a different article first.
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Working in A&R, I have seen literally thousands of bands in the last several years (I actually tried counting the bands I had seen at one point to try and talk my boss into giving me a raise; no, it didn’t work, but thanks for asking). Let me make an early disclaimer by saying that there is very little scientific about the showcasing process. This article is not meant to be a foolproof plan for how to get signed when you showcase; it is really just a collection of my experiences with what has worked or not worked for people in the past. The more I see what gets signed or what becomes a hit, the less I think I understand the record industry — so believe me, even on the other side of the fence there is confusion and frustration with this crazy business that we’ve chosen for ourselves. That being said…these are the things I hope you’ll be able to get out of this article:
(Or your mom really likes the new demos — is it time to cold-call record company presidents?) Ideally there are three things that I would strongly recommend you do before getting to the whole shopping and showcasing process.
Having been a musician myself for the last 10 years, I realize that the aforementioned tasks are easier said than done — but I promise you that these three things will be your guardian angels as you endure the showcasing process. If done incorrectly, this process can be as challenging and humiliating as going through puberty.
Your Team
OK, you say — on paper that sounds easy. But back to step one: How am I supposed to find a decent team? Well, once again there is no science to this, no set of rules I can give you that will bring you from point A to point B. I will say this: as you are playing clubs and developing your following, meet and talk to every band, manager and promoter you encounter. Your strength as a developing act will be the people that you know and the people you are able to trade favors with. Ask the big local act in your home town what they are doing for management or if they’ve encountered a lawyer that they like. Managers and lawyers do seem to find new clients from existing ones, so this is a very viable way of encountering potential team members. Also, research what managers, lawyers and agents are successful, and would understand your genre. Take meetings with everyone who will give you the time of day.
Even if nothing comes of these meetings, you should keep in friendly contact with these people — you never know when you might need one another for something. One more thing to keep in mind is that great bands make great managers and lawyers. If you are really having that much trouble building a team, perhaps you should spend more time focusing on perfecting your craft (writing better songs, playing more and better shows and building your following). In other words, if you build it, they will come. (For more detailed information about building your team, see The Music Attorney and Management ).
Demos
OK, I’ll work on putting my team together, or at least doing the right things to attract the right team members –but why is this guy babbling about good demos when he’s writing about showcasing I’ve found that good demos are usually the most important factor in finding a major label record deal and the most efficient way of generating enough label interest to get to the showcasing stage of your career. My advice on this front is beg, borrow or steal – in other words, do whatever it takes — to come up with the cash to make good demos before you start to showcase (See Producing a Demo/Early Album for more detailed information). You should try to find a local studio/engineer/producer whose work sounds radio-ready (and that maybe did another band’s demo that you like) and try to work with them. Research everything before spending your money on recording. Remember that most major labels are radio driven, and for the most part not in the business of selling your live show. I’ve seen bands that could barely play live get record deals because their demos sounded ready for radio. In these cases, the showcase was really just a formality — the record company’s mentality being that even if you suck live, you can’t tell that over the radio. I’ve even heard of bands with great demos being signed without ever being seen by a label rep at all. On the other hand, I’ve seen amazing live bands that just couldn’t come up with decent recordings of their material, and which to this day remain without a deal.
How the hell am I supposed to just start my career? I’m lacking funding, time and contacts to get the ball rolling. Aren’t you being a bit unrealistic? What can I say about that, except what you already know — the record business can be rather unpleasant. In recent years, the burden of artist development has shifted from record companies to management and the artists themselves. I don’t like it and I don’t agree with it, but that is really the way it is. Yes, it is unfair. Yes, it is hard as hell to get things going on for your career without major label resources. But yes, if you are able to start your career without help from a major, you will be that much more of a sellable commodity come showcase time. Look at it this way: As an A&R person, I am an investor for my company. You as an artist or band are a corporation. Your team is your senior management staff pitching your corporation to people like me. I am in position of acquiring corporations that I think will be successful. If your corporation is already beyond the blueprint or demo phases and is already demonstrating its viability in the marketplace, I am much more likely to want to invest in your future. In my experience, the only thing that can predict future sales in this business are existing sales. It is hard as hell to do on your own, but it can be done. Think about this: Kid Rock had sold well over 100,000 records on his own label before he signed to Lava/ Atlantic. He already had over 50 street-team members, and had received a decent amount of coverage by national periodicals. My company did a great job with this record, but nothing we did would have replaced his 10 years of legwork. In addition, that kind of legwork may put you in a stronger bargaining position when negotiating your deal. Dave Mathews and MC Hammer both got better than average royalty rates to lure them away from their already profitable independent careers.
“Anyway, you were about to stop this long-winded preamble and tell me what to do when I’m about to rock out in front of record execs, right?” I will in a minute, I promise… But first, I just want to say a word about gauging a label’s interest in your project. It’s important to know where people stand when they show up at your showcase, and it is very hard to tell. Musicians often misunderstand my intentions and interest level, so I guess I’d better explain what it means when I say or do something. Wow, I’m gonna be honest here…I know I’m going to regret this later but, here goes… When I say, “Please send me your demo,” it means, I want to hear this, someone told me it’s good, or I noticed the band doing something right. It doesn’t mean anything until we speak after I’ve listened to it — at which point you’ll know what’s up. When I say: “Well, let me know next time you play New York (my home town),” it means: Well, your demo was good, not great. Maybe if the live show is earth shattering we might talk about doing some demos or something. It kind of means keep in touch; let me know as things progress. It also indicates that I am not excited enough to get on a plane to go check you out just yet. It doesn’t mean that you should call your travel agent and book a tour ASAP — the interest level isn’t quite at that point yet. When I say: “OK, I’ll come see your next show — even if it is out of town — it means, I’m pretty excited here. Either I loved the demos or the fact that you’ve demonstrated that your project is making money in some way, or someone else in the business that I trust has convinced me that your project needs my immediate attention. It doesn’t mean I am the only person you need to impress. Like most A&R reps, I need approval from the upper tier to get anything signed When I say: “You guys were great, I’d like to get my boss to come see you now,” more often than not that statement means my decision is over. If it were my label, I’d sign you — but since it is not, I will see what the response is from the man upstairs. Depending on his reaction, I will decide on how to proceed. It doesn’t guarantee that the man upstairs will like you. If you thought convincing Cynical Bastard, Jr. was a task, just wait until you meet Cynical Bastard, Sr.
That said, most reps wouldn’t proceed unless they think their boss will understand your project. Major label interest is like venereal disease (or so they tell me): when you’ve got it, there won’t be any doubt in your mind.
Setting Up a Showcase
“OK — major label interest is a requirement for a showcase, and understanding the level of label interest is helpful. But will you tell me about showcasing now, please?” You’ve been patient, so… have your lawyer and manager take copies of your demos or album and send them to their closest industry contacts looking for feedback. You can do this yourself if need be, but it is likely that your material will get listened to more quickly if it is sent by a lawyer or a manager — and one or both should follow up on it to see if it was received and/or reviewed. I’d stress that your materials should be sent to your closest contacts first; that way, you get someone who is more likely to listen carefully and provide you with honest and detailed feedback and criticism. If your closest contacts are letting you know that they wouldn’t even travel across the street to check out your project, you might want to consider going back to the drawing board and working on your demo material some more. If the feedback is decent, however, by all means invite them to the show. Now is the time to sit down with your team and figure out which label(s) would be your ideal home. You’ve already sent your material to the people you and your team know the best — now I would recommend making sure that packages are sent to the labels you perceive to be the best fit for your project. If luck, timing and talent are with you, maybe you will get some people down to check you out.
Rules for the Big Rock Show
“So say I get a couple of labels interested — where do things go from there? Should I perform in their hometown or mine? Is it better to showcase in a rehearsal studio or in a venue? Should I bring out all of my drunken friends to the show? What about the guest list?”
If a label gives you the option of “your place or mine?” do not default to your one-night-stand logic — your response should always be “my place.” Ideally it should be in your hometown, at the venue in which you are most comfortable and in front of as many fans as you can find.
A showcase will likely be stressful for you no matter where it is, but in your home town and in a familiar venue you will be better able to predict all of the little pitfalls of playing live. Will you get a sound check? Is the soundman any good? Will the promoter/club owner move your set time? What is the back line like at the venue, and what equipment will you need to bring? Do everything you can to get a sound check and make sure you know (and tip! ) the soundman. If you have to be out of town, try to bring your own soundman, or at least find one who comes highly recommended wherever you wind up showcasing. Another good reason to avoid coming to label territory is that the crowds in New York and Los Angeles (where most record labels are located) suck. People rarely go out to check out new acts and tend to be too cool to move or show any real appreciation. Also, no matter what night you choose to play in New York or L.A, there will always be a national act or another buzz band you’ll be competing with.
Another thing to consider is that an A&R representative tends to feel less at work when seeing a band in a venue that’s not one of his or her usual haunts in downtown Manhattan or Los Angeles — and believe me, that can help. You may not be given the decision to play under ideal circumstances. A very common story for showcasing bands is that they will be seen first by a representative or scout in their hometown, and then flown in to New York or Los Angeles to play for the senior officers at the company, or sometimes most of the record label staff. This can be a brutal experience and I really don’t know how to tell you to prepare for it. Picture this — you’re in a room filled mostly with strangers who you know nothing about except that they work for a record label. There’s no alcohol, usually no smoking, and no one looking to pick someone up like they would at an ordinary show of yours in a bar somewhere. You are the sole focus of attention for a mob of jaded record executives. A friend of mine had his band showcase for an entire label staff last year and had one of the most horrifying experiences I’d ever heard about. In a sterile rehearsal room like the one I just described, the band waited for the label president (a living legend) to arrive.
After a half-hour of being uncomfortably stared at by several dozen New York hipsters, the band was finally greeted by the label head, who had a couch placed under his ass and was then carried to within spitting distance of the stage. The label head sat expressionless with arms folded during the band’s entire set. What could you do to prepare for this? Well, I guess the only thing I can think of is to practice until you know your set forwards and backwards so you can stand and deliver under any circumstances. Another option worth considering is performing in a studio if you know you can put on a good show there – not exactly easy or natural. The advantages are that you’ll have time to soundcheck, you can have everything set up the way you want, and you’ll have far more control if that appeals to you.
The Importance of Fans…
If you have a legion of loyal fans, don’t be afraid to bring every last one of them down to your showcase. It’s a very difficult thing to pack a venue (even if there is no cover) unless you’re doing something right. When I go out of town to check out band, I’m watching the crowd as much as I am watching the performance. The funny thing about doing A&R is that with every passing day in your job you become less like an ordinary consumer. For example, I haven’t purchased a CD or paid to see a performance in months. So honestly, I’m almost more interested in what your average 16-year-old kid thinks than what I think. The president of the label I work for once told me a story about seeing a band several years ago that went on to be a multi-platinum act. He didn’t get it; in fact, he hated it. Being rather bored in the middle of this packed show, he wandered around and talked to people in the crowd about the band. Every person he talked to swore that the band was the next coming of Christ. He allowed the A&R representative that brought the band to his attention to sign it and they went on to sell millions and millions of records. Obviously there were other factors involved, but the rabid fans at their show that night played a huge part in their signing.
More often than not, you will find yourself showcasing in less-than-ideal circumstances, so do your best to improvise and make do with what you have. If you are forced into a sterile rehearsal room, bring candles or some elements of your stage show to the room to liven it up a bit. If you have the means, have someone who knows your set operate the lights — lighting can really help out a show. Remember, you will likely be playing to a room of zombie-faced record execs who tend not to move a lot, so even a simple strobe light can do wonders to make it feel like something in the room is moving. You can talk to the label about bringing a case of beer and some friends down to the rehearsal room; I can’t imagine most of them would mind. If nothing else, it might make you feel more comfortable — which, as you can imagine, helps a great deal. Do be careful when playing the drunken-friends-in-a-rehearsal-hall card, however, because I’ve seen it do more harm than good. When it works right it’ll just be a bunch of people enjoying your music and having a beer. I’ve seen it appear very forced, where it seems like the band instructed every member of the audience to freak out and overreact to every song (which might just be them trying to be helpful). Be careful about audience coaching in general. When I go to see a show on the band’s territory, I’m expecting to see a well-promoted and packed show — the best example of a show they can do there. If I see one hint of something that looks staged (I once saw a band thanking a group of young girls and handing out $5 bills not too long after they loudly demanded band autographs in the middle of our conversation), it can be a total buzz kill.
Set Lists and Spontaneity
Obviously you are the one who has to live this out, but I would recommend writing out your set list several weeks before the showcase and practicing it over and over the exact same way you intend to play. Make sure you are so comfortable with your showcase set that you could play it while having hand grenades lobbed at you. Also, short sets tend to work better than long ones. I would say play only your strongest and/or most commercially viable material during a showcase, particularly if it is in a rehearsal hall. If you can, find out which songs the record company is focusing on.
If it is an ordinary show you have a bit more flexibility, but even then you should leave the crowd wanting more and pray that you get an encore (always a good sign). Put the song you are getting the best feedback on in the middle, or maybe in the latter half of the set because A&R people are notoriously late. I would even go as far with your rehearsals to script out the in-between song banter. At a venue or real show always announce your project’s name once or twice during the set (this way there’s no mistaken identity) and don’t be afraid to call out mailing list and CD info. I always like to know that a band isn’t shy about selling their records and is organized enough to keep a mailing list. This does not mean you should go overboard with stage banter. Song titles are cool to mention, crowd interaction is always a plus, but no one really wants to hear your life story. Besides, if you do your job right on stage, people will ask you for your life story when the set is over.
Guest Lists
Guest lists for industry people shouldn’t be a big deal, but for some reason or another it can cause problems. The one plus about showcasing in a rehearsal hall is that you won’t have deal with all of the fragile egos and bullshit whining that comes with putting together a guest list. Make arrangements with the venue you are playing at beforehand so you don’t discover too late that your guest list is over crowded and you have to come out of pocket for the extra people on your list. If you know up front that you won’t be getting a large list, don’t worry about it — A&R people have expense accounts that can be used for paying a cover charge. If the show will be sold out, then and only then should it really cause a problem. If you’re selling out a club, they shouldn’t be giving you shit about the size of the guest list anyway, so make sure that your industry guests are on the guest list and getting in. You should know that younger scouts and A&R people are far from wealthy, so if you’ve got an A&R assistant or scout helping you out, throw them a bone if you can. If you’ve got the space to put people on, it’s a nice courtesy. If you don’t, just make sure you communicate with the people you invite about the list — anyone who would let a nominal cover charge deter them probably isn’t worth your time anyway.
“Say things are going very well and I have several people interested — do I invite them all to the same show? Should I play labels off of one another to get a better deal? Would it be advisable to get my project in the middle of a bidding war?” There are cases where there can be too much of a good thing. On numerous occasions I have seen bands that have managed to get the majority of the A&R community in New York down to one of their shows and then blown it. That being the case — and being that anyone can have an off day — I would say try bringing people to your shows in smaller groups, or maybe even one by one. You will not always have that luxury if there are multiple labels interested in seeing you and you showcase in New York or Los Angeles. But if you can do more than one showcase for different groups of people without making it any less impressive, do so.
I’ve found that if too many people show up at a certain show, I will be more critical of the performance and will find myself asking if the band is really worth all the hype. I know it’s childish, but a packed showcase for a buzz band is kind of like going to see one of those blockbuster movies that spends millions on advertising and gets dozens of huge corporate sponsors. The movie might be good but it rarely meets your expectations because of all the hype, and will never quite be as good as a great movie you just kind of stumble upon. Major A&R turnout at your show doesn’t always lead to disaster, though. Sometimes only a few of the attendees step up with a deal and the band goes with whomever they feel most comfortable with — or whomever offers them the most generous deal. Other times, however, when there many labels interested in a band, the band can find they are in the middle of a bidding war. While this is obviously an enviable position to be in, it is a double-edged sword. On the one hand the band will have many different options to choose from; on the other, they will also be up against their own inflated perception. This is once again the obstacle of surviving the hype you generate for yourself.
Some of the biggest bidding wars of the last several years have been over bands such as Radish, Rubyhorse, Hayden, Flick and Furslide. If these names sound familiar, then trust me when I say you are quite up on your obscure music. Like a majority of bidding war acts these bands did not go on to perform like the collective A&R community thought they would.
I believe the heightened expectation placed on these bands has something to do with their failure. When a band that cost a label a great deal of money is released, the unconscious perception of the label staff is that it should perform better than the average new release. Since this is not always the case, it seems that people are quicker to dismiss a bidding war record even if it is selling moderately well. Once again, beware the hype. The best-case scenario is to get an offer in from one label and see if you can leverage that offer into a better offer from other labels. With luck you will get a modest amount of competitive deal offers on the table. Having just reread the last two sentences aloud I thought now would be a good time to mention this: ALL OF THE IDEAS STATED IN THIS ARTICLE ARE JUST THE OPINIONS OF RICK GOETZ, AND NOT THOSE OF ELEKTRA RECORDS OR ANYONE ELSE. Anyway, it can be a very touchy subject, and you must be careful to treat any deal memo you get with respect. Deal memos do get pulled off the table all the time, so don’t think you can take your time and flaunt the fact that you are continuing to shop even though label X has put its money where it’s mouth was. If you get an offer from a dream label and it seems to you and your team like a reasonable deal, then maybe you should just sign and get on with your career. If it is an offer from a label that is at the bottom of your list then maybe you should delicately put a spin on this in your pitch to other labels. When I say delicately I mean don’t call everyone in the A&R community and try to stir things up.
Just call those labels that have expressed the most interest to date (other than the label who has made an offer) and let them know that just for their information, there is now a deal on the table and that the band will not be available forever. Be warned — if you take too long looking for other options, you might loose the deal memo on the table. So be careful. If you do get a second label to make an offer, you can look to improve the stakes from both interested parties. As long as there are not too many offers and too much hype, you don’t risk the pitfalls of being a bidding-war band. I never said that a little friendly competition was wrong. But be warned that when you’re the middle of these negotiations you don’t exaggerate what one label is offering to the other one.
The music business is a twisted little social group that is not unlike high school — people talk and gossip frequently, and we all seem to be at least one or two degrees of separation from one another – so there is a good chance that if you tell one label that the other is offering you the moon and it isn’t true, that little lie will be uncovered, and screw up your rapport with one or both labels. One last comment: Rapport with an A&R person or label is crucial. You should try to understand his/her position within the label (i.e. level of seniority), and determine whether or not you can communicate and understand each other. You should also ask what their vision for you is, and hope that it somewhat lines up with your own. If there is a competitive bid situation, the person or label you communicate better with is very important, and could decide not only where you land, but also how happy you’ll be once you’re there.
Buck Up, Little Campers…
If you’ve made it this far, you are a real trooper. I think I’ve run out of silly anecdotes and half-baked witticisms for you. Your job in showcasing is to find the right label for your project (and in the process, get as many free fancy dinners as you can). I hope you continue making good music and not let the many obstacles before you deter you from your dreams and goals. Please bear in mind that this process is more like a marathon than a sprint — so don’t loose hope!
Jason Jordan is the Vice President of A&R for Hollywood Records. Jason started off his career in music in his early teens when he and his brother Joel founded a punk rock label called Watermark. By the time Jason turned eighteen he and his twin brother had built the label into a six-figure company between record and merch sales and it was not long before his success earned him the attention of the major label A&R community. Jason founded the music marketing program at Urban outfitters, and also worked for a couple years at the huge indie, RykoDisc, before landing his first A&R job at Columbia Records in New York at the ripe old age of twenty. Jason was kind enough to sit down and talk with me about his career and the evolving role of A&R executives.
Jason, thanks for taking the time to speak today. Was your first A&R gig was in the early or mid 1990s?
JJ:
I moved to New York in February of 1995. I worked at Columbia Records under David Kahne the first year I was there, and then the second, third and fourth years I had Alan Mintz as my boss who was a pretty well known music attorney (later on he founded the brief lived Starbucks Music), then for Will Botwin, he was also there during my tenure – he was a legendary music manager prior to joining Columbia and is now at Red Light Management – running that company.
What was the culture like there at the time? Was it vastly different than it is today?
JJ:
There were so many A&R people it was ridiculous. It is such a weird dichotomy to what we have now. Fifteen years ago we had 25 A&R people at Columbia Records. So for me to really find my niche, they wanted me to bring in “alternative music,” whatever that was. And really the reality of it was the people who were former pop people or metal guys or people that had never really focused on what my expertise was were now really focused on that. So I had what I felt like was a tremendous disadvantage because I wasn’t in the major label music industry for very long. The only advantage I had was that I had a lot of credibility with the bands and the labels that these bands were trying to get signed off of. In terms of relationships with managers and lawyers, I just didn’t have those. I’d get blown out of the water a lot because I was just so young. There was so much internal competition, we were all fighting over the same things, not to mention Epic Records, which was a formidable full-standing label at the time with its own president and marketing staff in the same building. We had to compete against each other as well. When you combined the Epic and Columbia A&R staff you probably had about 50 people.
Wait, What year was this?
JJ:
1995. Yeah, there were at least fifty between both coasts. So the reality of it was, I really had a lot of internal competition to deal with as well as the external music business. I found my niche in underground dance music and mined that. Some of the best signing I ever had there were people like Josh Wink and King Britt’s “Ovum Recordings” label which included Josh Wink and King Brit as well as Jamie Myerson (Jamie was one of the first credible American drum and bass artists). I did that deal, and later on Armand Van Helden, the Hardkiss Brothers (including Scott Hardkiss as a solo artist).
You signed Armand Van Helden?
JJ:
Yes. Through a deal with Chris Schwartz and Ruffhouse Records. It was very cool actually. I looked after a lot of the Ruffhouse stuff for a while too because there was really no one inside internally that would sign off on Cypress Hill budgets and stuff like that, and I was from Philadelphia. So I got to work with the cream of the crop of dance music while at Columbia and also handled a lot of the UK artists like DJ Rap, Grooverider, Leftfield, etc. The biggest pop thing I ever did at Columbia was The Philosopher Kings. They went on to do major stuff. Two of them became the producers know as Track and Field, who developed, signed and discovered Nelly Furtado for the first two records. The other two became writers, producers and artists as well in their own right with success as well.
You were at Columbia for how long?
JJ:
From 1994 to 1998. 4 years total. In 1998 I started getting phone calls for some job interviews for positions available at competing record companies, and they all reeked of the same medicine as Columbia did- which was a big corporation with not a lot, if any, of artist development. A ton of signings with not a lot of love and care. Eventually through my friend David Katznelson who did A&R at Warner/Reprise, I was introduced to Bob and Rob Cavallo. They were the first new people hired to start the “new” Hollywood Records/Disney Music Group. I flew to L.A. to meet them and had zero expectations, but I wanted to meet Rob because he was one of my favorite producers and Bob was a legendary music manager- so I couldn’t go wrong in knowing them at the very least. When I got to L.A., and they laid out their plan as to what they wanted to do in the next five years and I was completely sold. I was 24 years old, and I’d been in the major music label industry for four years at that point. I kind of learned trial-by-fire at Columbia which was definitely the biggest grossing and hottest hit driven record labels in the world, but also a pretty hardcore place to learn. So I felt my four years of college were really spent at Columbia Records. Everything I learned there I applied to starting my career at Hollywood Records. I decided to take the job at Hollywood because there were no A&R people and there was no catalogue. We literally were writing the book as we were going and I was able to really help to guide the direction of the label from the beginning. So that was and is still kind of cool. Here we are over a decade later.
Remind me of the acts you’ve worked with in your now twelve-year tenure at Hollywood?
JJ:
One of the highlights was Diffuser, still one of the most seminal emo bands of all time, even if we sold only 50,000 records at the time. Their first album “Injury Loves Melody” was and is still a touchstone album for a lot of people I meet to this day.
I respect an A&R guy who doesn’t feel the need to bury their signings that weren’t huge commercial successes.
JJ:
I totally admire the artist. It’s one of my favorite things I’ve ever signed. I just wish it sold more records! But when you go into interviews with Good Charlotte and bands like that, they always point to Diffuser as an influence, so that’s kind of cool. The second thing I signed almost at the same time was BBMak, which we sold a million album and had a big hit single called “Back Here”. They were the boy band that didn’t dance and actually took part in the songwriting process. Also, this was really some of our first real proof that we could use the Disney system as a whole synergistic partner to sell records, and we did it really, really well. That sort of opened the floodgates to carry on with the Disney Channel and develop a great relationship with them which has extended from Hilary Duff up to Miley Cyrus and so on. But for me personally, after BBMak there were a couple things I signed that were brilliant that never saw the light of day, like Alexandra Slate and Tina Sugandh
I have managed to get another hit through the system since BBMak (Breaking Benjamin) and it couldn’t be more different. I’m excited about Breaking Benjamin. They have sold over three million records over the last eight years. We’ve had several #1s at this point at Active Rock. They are now on tour with Nickelback direct support until the middle of this summer. That’s going to be very cool. Their 2nd single is out now and called “Give Me A Sign”. It’s climbing at Active Rock pretty steadily and we will finally cross it to pop in the coming weeks! This is the first time we’ve tried it with this band in the last 8 years so I hope it’s a huge hit. It’d be great if they picked up and entirely new fan base between pop radio and the Nickelback tour. The next thing I’m insane about is Alpha Rev. They might actually be the best thing I’ve ever signed. Mark Pellington shot the video for the debut single which is out now called “New Morning” and it’s climbing at Triple AAA Radio now and then Hot AC and we hope, eventually, pop as well. It’d be nice to have 2 big rock bands that are polar opposites but still equally devastating in their own right.
So Music and A&R has been a career for you now for what 16-18 years?
JJ:
I guess if I started at 13, it would be 23 years. But less if you only include the major label stuff …
I don’t even recognize labels when I walk into them anymore, and I’m only gone six years. In the scheme of things that’s not supposed to be a long time. How has the role of an A&R person changed?
JJ:
It depends on what label you’re working at, but I think we’re signing less as an industry. Obviously some of the bigger music groups have to sign more but it’s still a lot less signings than there were even three to five years ago. Even personally I can use a microcosm example of myself and say that I’m doing well if I’m signing one or two things per year. Hollywood is the kind of label where we don’t put out so many albums so that we’re able to actually focus on things. I’m absolutely certain when I sign something that it’s going to get at least 100% of the label’s effort. That feels good. Rather than taking a shot gun approach to A&R and signing ten things and hoping one of them succeeds, we really reverse engineered that and decided we’d sign things that were good for the label and things we could actually market and promote properly. I know that’s not a revolutionary idea, but a lot of labels don’t even do that. It’s that basic – signing the things that are right for your label. That’s basically what I do as an A&R person – I’m always looking for what’s next for Hollywood Records. I’m not looking for what’s right for other labels. I get a lot of phone calls from lawyers or agents or managers, trying to hype me up on what Warner Bros. or Universal or Columbia are signing, and I really don’t care what they’re signing. What they’re signing isn’t necessarily what’s right for us. What’s right for Hollywood Records is what I’m signing.
Alpha Rev wasn’t really a band that had made a lot of headway on their own. They were a local act. In general, you liked the music and you signed them, but how much more important in this day and age is an artist doing their own development? Breaking Benjamin on the other hand was an artist that had already started to buzz at radio in their home market. I was still around for that one. From your vantage point, are there more things getting signed that have their own momentum?
JJ:
Absolutely. I’m not pointing at any specific labels, but I can tell you the larger music groups are all research oriented. If your record is charting and you’re selling any significant amount of product on iTunes or even physical product sound soundscanning, they’re going to call you. We don’t do that. We don’t have the resources, and it doesn’t really work for us. We have very specific needs for what’s right for Hollywood. The business as a whole though has absolutely become research driven. So most bands that get signed either have a momentum of their own through a touring base and/or selling records. It’s incredibly easy to put out a digital record these days so I don’t know why more bands don’t do it.
If you sell enough a label is going to come calling. That’s one of the major things I can point to: There’s a tremendous amount of more research and less passion, whereas I can’t really be that guy. I have to get up every day and want to kill for your music as much as you do. I either have to want to be in your band or be you to sign you, because that’s the kind of A&R person you want working for you – someone that’s going to take your career seriously, nurture it as they would their own, and then take and cheerlead and manage the project through the whole major label system.
To answer your question about Alpha Rev, they had a tremendous amount of momentum in Texas really, the Southwest. They had some touring base outside Texas, but really their primary market was Austin. They were slowly becoming the biggest band in Austin without a record deal. It’s crazy, because no one was really paying attention. Casey, who is the main guy in Alpha Rev had been through the major labels sniffing his butt with his previous band Endochine. They never got signed and they eventually broke up for a variety of reasons. Alpha Rev was Casey’s redemptive band. The name loosely translates in Latin and Greek as “the start of something new.” I had heard the band’s song “Phoenix Burn” on a songwriter demo of Dwight Baker – he is a kickass songwriter and producer based in Austin, TX. I had this unlabeled CD and I had no idea who the band was. Eventually my assistant Bladimir Jimenez found out and for six months or so we stalked this band online. Eventually we saw them at CMJ a year later, and six weeks later I was showcasing them in L.A. and we were done. It was a rather unique story, because their signing had everything to do with the band being incredible live, them having songs that were “commercial,” and it being right for Hollywood. Even though they’d sold no real significant amount of records on their own yet, they were already playing sold out shows in Austin, TX. That alone to me wasn’t starting from zero. They already had a strong foundation, at least in Texas to stand on.
What about artist development? How has that changed in the last few years? Are you more involved with that as an A&R person?
JJ:
Yeah. It depends on what you think artist development is. We have to define that.
The marketing and promotion everything from brand partnerships to the really basic but hugely important stuff like getting people to gigs.
JJ:
I sometimes feel that I’m as much an internal manager as I am an A&R guy. Yesterday I was at Alpha Rev’s rehearsal (for their show at VH1 the following day) at 9 p.m. just getting them pizza. Sometimes the role of the A&R guy is not as sexy as you think it is.
I only ask because there really was such a gigantic separation of labor when I was an A&R guy in the business. Most executives made the record, handed it off and then begged people to do something with it but the legwork on development was rarely done by an A&R executive.
JJ:
I think at a smaller label like Hollywood, you can have a little bit more influence because there’s not as much red tape to cut through. When I was at Columbia Records – and this was ten years ago, so I have no idea how they do it now, but back then there were so many levels of hierarchy I had to go through just to get my singles scheduled, or get my albums scheduled or get the artwork done. It was like pulling teeth for every little thing. I felt like I went in there every day to do battle and had minor victories when people signed off on stuff that should be standard! Of course, as an A&R person, part of my job is shepherding the record through the system. It’s not about giving up as soon as you deliver the record to the label. It’s now even more important to highlight the reasons that we signed the band in the first place, and to make sure you keep the excitement level at the label at an all-time high. We wouldn’t sign the artist if we didn’t love it anyway.
What is the most consistent thing you see that labels in general are providing for artists that they are in this digital age not getting on their own?
JJ:
The only thing in the digital age that a major label can provide that a band can’t do on their own is marketing and promotion. A record label is a bank with a lot of relationships. I’m boiling it down to the nuts and bolts. We are in the business of music, and we sell music and sometimes deal with music as a product and a commodity and it’s true that it is indeed sometimes dealt with in a very haphazard manner, that’s how this business is. I certainly try not to contribute to any of that- which is why I think artist development is paramount. I have to be involved in it and not just hand it off and say, “See you later.”
You’re actually one of the few successful A&R people I don’t think is a complete prick.
JJ:
(Laughs) Thank you! Another major thing I do often is to interface very closely with management and the bands themselves to make sure we’re all on the same page and communicating correctly. Generally we don’t have those problems at our label because we are so small. Bob Cavallo, the chairman of our label has said this before, “It’s easier to turn around a speed boat than it is a cruise ship.” That’s absolutely true. We’re able to be a little bit more dynamic, a bit quicker, a little bit easier to maneuver, and a heck of a lot easier when adapting in the changing ever-changing marketplace.
What is the best way to get your attention, as you have a “desk where dreams go to die” that is super crowded ?
JJ:
Just e-mail me a link to something if somebody really wants to get my opinion. The worst way to get my attention is to send me an MP3. The irony for most A&R people is that we work for big companies that can’t process large attachments. So, please send links to your music first and foremost and nothing else.
It’s probably more likely to get to you if someone’s not coming in cold too, right?
JJ:
If somebody e-mails me or comes in through a manager or a lawyer or nicely e-mails and asks if I can have a quick listen, I generally do. If it’s an MP3, I delete it immediately and will never ever respond to that person ever (Laughs – clearly kidding)
Really, just to get my attention send it once and don’t be too persistent. Try and come through the proper channels and ask first as we do not accept unsolicited materials. If I ask for it and listen to it and think that it’s right for Hollywood, then rest assured I’m going to be right on it!
What are things you’re seeing a lot of bands out there aren’t doing that you wish they would?
JJ:
I can’t believe more bands aren’t just releasing their own albums first, even digitally. Do it yourself. It’s way more satisfying, you’ll make more money, and in addition to having physical product to possibly sell as merchandise on the road, they really should drive the digital side as much as they can. Sales will get a major label’s attention. It’ll certainly help with me if I think it’s right for our label. That’s something I’ve seen improving, but it could improve a lot more. It’s bands saying, “Look, let’s not wait around for a label, let’s just do it ourselves”, because it is so simple to do it yourself and so much more gratifying to actually have a role or a greater hand in not just making your music, but selling it.
I often say to people if they want to hire someone to do something correctly, they have to go out and fall on their face trying to do it themselves.
JJ:
That’s exactly it. You know what you want only by failing. “I know I don’t want to do it that way again.” And to be honest, I’ve learned a lot through failure. My advice to bands or artists is, “Don’t be afraid to do it. Just try it.” Worse case scenario is you fail, and that’s not so bad.
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Check out Jason’s latest signing Alpha Rev
Michael Goldstone is one of the most successful A&R executives still in the business. During his career he has signed artists like Pearl Jam, Rage Against the Machine, Buck Cherry, Regina Spektor and Tegan & Sarah. After having many senior positions at labels like Epic, DreamWorks and most recently being the president of Sire Michael has started a label called Mom & Pop records with Craig Winkler and the Q-Prime Management team (Metallica, RHCPs, Muse etc).
Tell me how Mom and Pop came about and what is it like to run a modern label? Why did you opt for a new situation given that you were the President of Sire and working side by side with the label’s founder Seymour Stein?
MG:
I think the Sire experience was incredibly empowering and very satisfying. Previously, I had been thinking of starting my own label. But when you’ve grown up listening to KROQ and Depeche Mode, Echo and the Bunnymen, and The Replacements, and somebody calls you up and says, “Hey, we want you to be the president of Sire Records,” well, I couldn’t resist!
How was it working with Seymour Stein?
MG:
We both worked for Tom (Whalley), which allowed us to both thrive and build a relationship. I will forever look back on the experience with Seymour as being one of the most gratifying of my career. Anyone that has worked with Seymour knows how inspiring and amazing he can be. It was one factor that made it extremely difficult for me to leave. With Sire, which had been so revered, we respected the history of the label. We were able to sign Regina Spektor, Tegan and Sara, and Against Me, building up a diverse roster. I remember at one point we did an Alternative Press ad with eight bands. To be able to do a two-page ad and have all eight bands on there and a) not get any calls from any of them saying, “I can’t believe you put me in an ad with this band or that band,” and b) to have it be diverse was a validation of our ambition. That year, having three acts at Coachella and three acts at Bamboozle the very next weekend was really satisfying.
Why Mom and Pop? What was the catalyst to make you start, and what’s different about your new label?
MG:
For major labels, deals revolving around the delivery of four to five albums, as well as access to 360 rights are important for sustaining that model. A lot of the artists I was gravitating to were artists that were probably not pre-disposed to wanting to do those kinds of deals. When you’re in a bigger company, 180,000 units is often perceived to be a bit of a disappointment. In a smaller label, however, 180,000 is a huge accomplishment. That can make money for both the artist and the label.
I felt like I was sending a lot of artists down the street because we didn’t have the ability to do short-term deals or deals that didn’t have 360 components in them. It was extremely limiting. I wanted to be in a situation where whatever we were able to build and grow, which would be satisfying and exciting to everyone. It just seemed like the time to try to be in a situation that allowed more flexibility.
I’m having a blast doing this, and we like the ability to interact with RED Distribution and make the decisions. Not having to go through long, complicated meetings with large numbers of people is a welcome relief. The lack of politics is so incredibly liberating I cannot even tell you. I enjoy having the freedom, deal-wise, and support from Peter [Mensch] and Cliff [Burnstein](the founding partners of Q-Prime).
Tell me how the company works. Tell me about what the process is and how the process has changed for you, not only since the landscape has changed, but since you’re at a new label. Is there a philosophy or is it case by case?
MG:
Developing and breaking acts is somewhat subjective. The benchmarks that define a broken or developing act are different now. Artists that are able to sustain their careers can do so through selling fewer records and building strong touring. Lucrative careers can be built through publishing and sync deals. The rules and criteria of success and breaking bands are changing as we speak. Remaining flexible is of the utmost importance.
What is the process of furthering an artist’s career in this age where artists have so many tools available to them?
MG:
The bones of Mom and Pop come from management DNA. The second you walk into a management company and you’re building out a recorded music division from it, the value and benefit of that management DNA is undeniable. Sitting with Peter, Cliff and Craig Winkler is great. I remember with Joshua Radin’s deal, I was thinking to myself, “This is the craziest and most user-friendly proposal I’ve ever done.” It was interesting because I got most of it right. Cliff marked off two or three things, completely in the artist’s favor. With the history of looking at hundreds of record deals, he’s saying, “Okay, this is how we’re going to make it more fair. This is how we’re going to make it more equitable.” I knew I was with the right people. He ultimately inspired me when he said, “If we do great work for great artists, over time it will all come back.” Cliff (and Peter) have allowed and pushed me to make decisions that are completely antithetical to what bigger companies do in certain situations.
Is your company staffed, or are you hiring consultants case by case?
MG:
Where appropriate, we can utilize the QPrime staff. Depending on the artist, there could be an additional three to twelve bodies. Everyone here is jumping in. There’s a lot of opportunity that creates itself when people are making calls looking for Metallica, the Red Hot Chili Peppers, Muse and Silversun Pickups. Our radio is powerful. Cliff and Peter set up the promotion department ten years ago in order to have their own relationship with radio. When other people are going in the other direction and getting smaller, they’ve been more aggressive with providing extra support for their artists. Look at Silversun Pickups on Dangerbird Records; they did a great job developing the band. But Dangerbird would probably be the first to tell you that they would hit a ceiling at a certain number and that number would be far below the 300,000 records that they’d be able to sell at the time without good partnering. So when you’re sitting with bands and you have the infrastructure that can go compete and have the upside, and sell as many records as anyone else – it really helps. Of course it’s dependent on finding the right acts and the right songs.
How has A&R changed? Are you finding you’re doing more deals based on who has existing movement, or are you doing deals purely out of love with kids just out of art school?
MG:
I think it’s somewhere in between. I would like to say it’s more of a mindset than it is a sales threshold. There’s a band we’re just signing right now that hasn’t put a record out yet, but they’ve done all the right things to move themselves along. Even though they don’t have a sales base, we’re walking into a situation where there’s a lot of natural inertia. I think what we’re also focused on is finding really strong managers and bands that understand what we’re trying to do, and building on that. In theory, the artists we sign, and their managers, are becoming part of the label. We’re making all the decisions together and we’re empowering them to build the team. We find, sometimes, that a team of 10-12 people is far more effective than a team of 75-100, especially when you’re trying to get everyone on the same page. We’ve been working really well with RED, and we have a strong relationship with iTunes.
What are you seeing that artists are doing that’s working? There is so much conversation about rising above the noise now that international distribution is only a couple mouse clicks and $50 away. Talent aside, are you seeing anything that is a reliable delivery source? Is it touring? How are you seeing artists build a business? You’ve clearly identified at Mom and Pop people who have built something. How are they building these things? Has it changed?
MG:
We think we’re dealing with a generation of musicians and managers who are more forward thinking, more resourceful, and willing to be pragmatic. They are finding alternative ways of exposing music. We think the ones that are truly committed to building a connection with their audiences are the ones that are building careers.
We think people are figuring out they don’t necessarily need to be flying Top 10 records in order to go build touring bases. We may be speaking specifically to the aesthetic of what we like and what we’re doing. You could be having a totally different conversation with somebody if they wanted to go make a pop record. They do need those drivers and big record companies with promotion and a willingness to go put the energy of 200 people behind it to go sell 150,000 records that first week. In terms of what we are trying to do, it’s a proof of concept. We took an artist off a bigger label that had sold 90,000 records and that wasn’t enough. Whether it was creative or artistic reasons that they let him go, we were thrilled to get that opportunity, and we’ve done really well with it. This is an artist that played enough shows, shook enough hands, signed enough CDs and got enough opportunities for himself. He networked a lot of relationships for himself. Joshua Radin is someone who works hard.
The 200,000+ units he sold between these two records did not come from having a hit. And now he’s starting to get into bigger rooms and build a career outside of America. I went to England to see him play Shepherd’s Bush Empire off TV syncs and word-of-mouth. He drew 1300 people, and he didn’t even have a record out. The stories are all different, but the one thing they have in common is the ability to move themselves along.
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Check out Mom & Pop Records
No interview today. I apologize, I’m quite behind on interviews but I just wanted to write a bit about a disconnect I have been noticing with many of the musicians I know and have been working with in the last few months. When you cold call someone who is the one of the gatekeepers to a musician’s success – what do you think their desk looks like?
What I’m about to say is pretty blunt and I apologize but let me spell is out for you- No one gives a damn about your band. I know, that’s awful and sure you can point to a bunch of fans but when it comes to people who are gatekeepers to success it is really one of the most true things I have ever typed.
Why is this? Well most gatekeepers (Club owners, booking agents, music managers, A&R executives, music supervisors etc) got into the business because they loved music. They came to be in whatever their position by being an assistant, some by starting some entrepreneurial venture and some by dumb luck. Regardless of how they got there- as soon as they had spent several months or years in that position they began to listen to music in such large quantities that few of them are able to fully process and digest it.
People who filter large amounts of music are often overwhelmed with passionate people who can forget that said gatekeeper is running a business and has to make decisions based on the bottom line more than their love of music. If the musicians they are talking to haven’t demonstrated that they can sell tickets or merchandise or albums – it is very rare that an executive will take a chance on an unknown commodity for love of the music alone.
Be aware of this when cold calling people – don’t take rejection personally. Dig through the people you know who have a relationship with the executive you are looking to contact and get referred. Make sure when you do this that the person referring you has a good relationship though otherwise you may be better off cold calling. People respond to numbers. You don’t want to call someone and try to convince them that your music sounds great – they’ve heard that far too often. A much better tactic is to demonstrate that you have a viable product. Something like – “We bring an average of x people to our shows” or “We sell x amount of tee shirts every night” or “We have gotten our music placed in these shows, films, commercials”. With so much music out there it can really help to give people a tangible measure of your existing success to have them pause long enough to give your music a real in depth listen.
To this end your marketing materials are very important when reaching out to people who can help your career. They should be quick and to the point and highlight your achievements (no matter how humble) so they can get someone to pause long enough to live with your music. I often find that artists tend to seek out lofty industry executives without having spent enough time trying to target and convert everyday people into fans. It has been my experience that to get a gatekeeper to pay attention to a package that comes to them either unsolicited or from a chance meeting the best way is to provide them with proof (read: sales figures and statistics) that your music is viable to people who actually buy music, merch and tickets.
More soon,
Rick
I was fortunate enough to meet with Jacob Slichter, the drummer from Semisonic and the Author of “So You Wanna Be a Rock & Roll Star: How I Machine-Gunned a Roomful of Record Executives and Other True Tales from a Drummer’s Life”. Jake is actually the first person I am interviewing that I didn’t know whatsoever before interviewing but I found his book so accurate and intriguing that I tracked him down.
Jake, First of all thanks for your time. I guess let’s start at the beginning or close to the beginning. What was it like at the time getting the attention of label guys in 1993-94 for Semisonic? What did you do correctly to get their attention?
JS: We (Dan and John) already knew them through Trip Shakespeare. Trip Shakespeare had been signed to A&M Records years earlier, so they had gone around and met A&R people from various labels, and so by the time Semisonic came along they knew a bunch of people who had all traded labels and were on the carousel of A&R people. So, number one, they already knew them.
Number two, we made really good-sounding tapes. I think also our biggest advantage was also our biggest disadvantage, which was that we were swimming against the tide at the time stylistically. Really at that time the landscape was dominated by Nirvana and then everything that was in that end of the spectrum – dark, angry, huge, amazing music that we were never going to be able to make. We weren’t interested in making it; it just wasn’t who we were, even though we were huge Nirvana fans.
Musician Coaching:
Talk to me about that. Did you feel like there was ever a temptation to say, “Hey, maybe we should knock that off”?
JS: We just never could’ve pulled it off. Never in a million years. It would just have been stupid to try. I think a lot of bands did try, and some of them did a fairly good job. There were a few bands that took the Nirvana direction and did great with it. We were never going to be that, and early on we realized that. I think when we were dealing with A&R people, ours were some of the few tapes that were bright pop music when all the A&R guys were looking for the next Nirvana. So our tapes stood out, and I think that helped us get attention. I think they were good tapes, and that was probably the main thing. Dan is just a really great songwriter, and I think we had pretty concise arrangements, and it sounded like radio-friendly music, so I think that also helped. I think the fact that we sounded as poppy as we did really made us unappealing to a number of labels, like Interscope. We had an A&R person there who really liked our tapes, but she knew it was really swimming against the tide of where the label was at. So she very wisely said, “Hey, this won’t be the place for you. If I sign you, you’ll just be buried.” So we ended up really with two labels that were most interested in us – MCA and Elektra.
Musician Coaching: I guess that was a tough ride through that first album cycle. That must’ve been really difficult on your interpersonal relationships. I know a lot of bands break up over that first record, because they’re pushing you at breakneck speeds, etc.
JS: I don’t know that they were pushing us at a breakneck speed, but we were going around the country. It wasn’t a strain on band relations anymore than any kind of touring is. Just being on the road with people is stressful. You don’t have a lot of personal space, so that’s why it’s such a strain. The band felt pretty tight, personally I think after that first album. I was frustrated, but I think Dan and John were kind of used to this because they’d been through it with Trip Shakespeare. I was kind of on a learning curve about how disappointment works in the music business. I probably took it the hardest. Actually everyone probably took it hard in their own weird way. I took it hardest in the sense that I probably was the most believing that the first record was going to break through. I always thought FNT would’ve done it. That was always my thought, but we’ll never find out.
Dan had written a bunch of songs, and I think it’s natural to feel disappointed when it’s the music you write. And John had been on the road for years with Trip Shakespeare, so I know he felt disappointment after that. And we all really felt proud of the record.
Musician Coaching: You toured with a lot of bands, played with a lot of bands. You were on tour for about ten years.
JS: On and off, sometimes 200 plus days out of the year.
Musician Coaching: Of the people you met, was there a defining or unifying quality of the ones who made it vs. the ones who didn’t?
JS: It’s hard to say. Not necessarily. There weren’t many bands that we toured with that I didn’t think were pretty damn talented on one level or another.
Musician Coaching:
Talent is an X factor but were there personal habits of successful artists?
JS: There were all different shapes and flavors in terms of personalities, etc. But there has to be a ruthlessness of commitment. You can be a very nice person on the outside and still have that. I think they all had that. It’s more than drive. It’s a belief on some level in your own intuition. That’s the hard thing about the music business. You can only really make good things if you are trusting your own intuition. But in the end it’s not your own intuition that matters, it’s someone else’s. So I think people get kind of hung up trying to tap into the intuition of the masses. It generally never produces great music. I think a lot of people think that massively popular music is made with the public in mind. I don’t think so. It’s made by people that have intuitions that are very much like what the public’s intuition is at the moment. But I don’t think you can do it by trying to guess where everyone else is at. I think you really have to commit to a belief. And if you’re lucky, the stars align and you make it. So that’s what I would say they have in common – a ruthless belief in their own intuitions. Some of them I was kind of amazed at how wrong they obviously were, and there might be some cases where eight months later that band was rocketing to the top of the charts or having some form of success come along.
Our first record sold 30-some thousand records, but in the universe of rock records it was pretty successful. It got written up in all kinds of places. So I think our whole experience was one that was a privileged existence in the world of rock.
Musician Coaching:
You got to take the ride while there was still a mechanism.
JS: They were putting money into it back then.
What’s your philosophy on social networking?
JS: I don’t understand it. I’m a Facebook member. I don’t use Twitter, and I don’t understand why anyone would be interested in what I Twitter, and I am not really interested in what other people Twitter. I was interested in the Iranian uprising, reading the Twitters when you couldn’t get news coverage. But, “Hey everybody, I’m going to Colorado to go skiing” or “Hi everybody I just had stuffed grape leaves for lunch” … I think they’ll figure it out, and they probably already have. Twitter and Facebook, since I know about them can’t possibly be the cutting edge of where this stuff is. They’re always catching up. I don’t think it’s possible to say, “What would’ve happened with Semisonic if we had been around when Twitter was around?” We would’ve been a different band.
I was curious if you had used them extensively, but if you haven’t …
JS: I think the thing I would have to say there is, you have to have a really clear idea of who you are, and then you have to have a really clear idea of who you think wants to hear or read what you’re up to. The social networking just gets plugged into that knowledge. Even faking requires a bit of self knowledge and knowledge of who you’re faking out and what they want to be faked out about.
Were you writing this book the whole time, or was this something you did completely in retrospect?
JS: I wasn’t thinking as I was writing the road diaries, some of which got incorporated into the book, “This could be a book.” All I was thinking was, “Well, if I can’t write as many songs as Dan, maybe I’ll write some road diaries and get my writing up in that way.” And then once we decided to press the pause button, I said, “OK, I have to write a book. That will be my next thing.”
Musician Coaching:
What was the experience of re-purposing a musician’s skills to a different commodity?
JS: What did I learn by being a musician that I applied to getting a book deal? It’s all the same stuff. To get a non-fiction book deal you have to submit a book proposal. And a book proposal is very much like a demo – “Here are the things I’m going to be talking about, here’s a sample chapter, here’s my outline, here’s who I think I’m talking to,” etc. It’s very similar to music because whether writing a book proposal or submitting a demo, they serve different purposes to different people. For a band or an author, a book proposal or a demo is like a map – “Here’s where I’m going, here’s what I’m going to do.” If I feel like I’m getting lost, I’ll come back and consult this and think about what my original intent was and just try to stay on track with that idea. For a publisher or a record company, these things serve a very commercial purpose – “How are we going to market this thing?” These are things most bands aren’t really thinking about. I almost think you shouldn’t think about them. You should try to focus on making the clearest thing that is truest to your vision.
More often than not now when I read about an artist I’m reading about their marketing and not their music.
JS: I think that’s the era we live in. Some people are really good at it, so if they are good at it, why shouldn’t they? But I think you do run the risk of getting off target. That’s one reason I don’t really talk about what I’m writing. I don’t want to get into thinking about who’s going to read it and what their reactions are going to be. I just have to sort of go away in my head and write it. It’s either going to be accepted or not, but I have to cross the finish line in my own mind along the path that I set out on, not someone else’s. I know a lot of bands that say, “Here’s our marketing strategy.” If you’re marketing strategy is more interesting than your music, you’re really in pretty big trouble. And maybe you shouldn’t be a musician. Maybe your real gift is to be an A&R person. There’s a kind of magic to that – how to put together musicians with people that are going to like the music. And figure out in the flow of the world, how is all this going to work? That’s an important decision. I get e-mails from a few bands that send out these really dazzling e-mails and have all these bells and whistles around their promotion, but the bottom line is, the music is just not that great. If I want really great bells and whistles about something, there are all kinds of fun Web sites where I can waste time. If I want music, I’m not so interested in how well a band markets itself. I’m only interested in the music. I think everybody else is pretty much the same.
Musician Coaching:
Would you say as Semisonic was winding down, the landscape had become competitive?
JS: No. We started out in the grunge era, and then there was a softening of the radio that happened right before “Closing Time” was released where there were things like “Bittersweet Symphony” by the Verve and “Brick” by Ben Folds 5. “Closing Time” sailed through that open moment. And then it got as soft as N’Sync and Backstreet Boys and then it took a hard turn back towards Limp Bizkit, Linkin Park and Korn – really loud impressive music. And our last record came out in that era, and it was not an alternative rock record. Our record company thought it was, and we were unclear ourselves. Regardless, I just don’t think it was the right time for that record. I really think that’s what it was about. I think we were lucky with “Closing Time” and our other two records had a lot of great songs on them, but just weren’t lined up with where people’s heads were.
Musician Coaching:
What changes have you noticed in the way the industry functions or in the way we consume media?
JS: One change I see is that people conceive of coming up with one great song as the arc of their band’s life. I think that’s a little more possible with YouTube. You make a cool YouTube thing, and you may not ever see another great YouTube from that same band, but that’s fine. People go on and make another one. I think that may be one thing we’re heading towards; instead of having an enduring band identity you break off and do other things.
Musician Coaching:
Some combination of the singles model vs. what movie studios do with other combinations of producers, directors and actors.
JS: One great thing about the music business now is that it’s so much cheaper to record that you don’t really need the studio. Most people don’t. They are at home, have their computers and are making recordings that 15 years ago would’ve cost tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. There’s probably a lot more music you can get to right away, but that makes your job harder as to how you’re going to weed through it. I think they’ll figure it out eventually. I don’t know how, but maybe someone with really cool tastes will gain followers and point out what’s good. I think one thing about the Internet is that it seems to me that there’s more impermanence. Things are more fleeting.
Musician Coaching:
So people will only get 15 seconds of fame rather than 15 minutes?
JS: I never bought the 15 minutes thing. Many people have been famous way longer than 15 minutes.
What do you make of the fact that there hasn’t been anyone that has risen to icon status in the last decade or so?
JS: Give it time. I do think someone’s going to come along and think of the perfect way to think of the perfect way to exploit all the things the internet has to offer. It’s complicated, it’s tricky and it’s always changing. There are so many things you can do with it. That just makes it harder.
Musician Coaching:
What do you make of the pay-as-you-will Radiohead premium model?
JS: An important thing to consider in the case of Radiohead – I think it’s awesome they did it – is the way they got to it was in part by being a major label band. What I’d like to see is, who will be the first band that will rise up from the Internet with no label backing?
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Please check out Jacob’s book “So You Wanna Be a Rock & Roll Star: How I Machine-Gunned a Roomful of Record Executives and Other True Tales from a Drummer’s Life”
