Posts Tagged ‘live music’

This is the second part of my interview with Howie Schnee of Creative Entertainment Group and Sullivan Hall.  You can see the first portion of the interview here.

Musician Coaching:

What is your feeling on the pay to play concept and why?

Howie:
I don’t have a problem with it as a talent buyer or a manager. Bands pay for advertisements, promotion and publicity. The bands that “get it” realize that playing in front of a good crowd of like-minded fans is the best exposure available. Better than ads or publicity. When we book a strong regional or national act it generally carries a lot of risk on our part. We hedge that risk with opening acts that we know are worth a good amount of tickets. When a band comes along that we’ve never heard of submits to open on one of those shows there’s not much incentive for us to do it, so if it’s a good fit musically we may suggest that they “guarantee” their draw by selling or buying some tickets to the show. I’d understand why some bands would object, but I’ve found that most smart, motivated younger emerging bands will get out there and hustle and sell some advance tickets for the great exposure opportunity.

Musician Coaching:

What are some of the most effective promotions and / or campaigns you
have seen that have made for great shows?

Howie:
I could name a lot of great promotions and campaigns but I think the general themes an act should focus on are: not overplaying any market they’re building; align themselves with other like-minded bands; try to build their own little scene; making their fans feel a part of the show and the success of the show in some way- in any way.  That and delivering a great experience once they actually get to the show.

Musician Coaching:

I remember when I played your club as a kid that some bands from out of
town would bus in their fans for the show and nightlife in NYC.  Does this
kind of thing still work for people looking to build New York as a secondary market?

Howie:
Bands from Jersey, CT, PA still do this. Here is an example of where we’d be amenable to putting a band on a really good exposure slot. The band obviously put a lot of work and money into organizing the bus trip, and they’ve guaranteed that they’d have at least 40 – 50 people coming to the show on their bus. Therefore, I think it can be a really smart way for a band to begin to build their audience in the city. As long as they play on the right show at the right time slot and gain some good exposure from the show, and they follow up the show in the not-too-distant future, it’s a worthy investment.

Musician Coaching:

What are the absolute requirements for getting people out to a show in
your opinion?  Is it promotions on Facebook and MySpace, or good old-fashioned flyering?  What works in your opinion?  Also, do you find that there is more impact from in person promotion than online promotion?

Howie:
All of the above. A band should be utilizing every tool at their disposal, and these days, there are so many free ways online and off for a band to use. I definitely think musicians, particularly outgoing ones, should be out there networking, meeting potential fans and other musicians like it’s their career. They should always be armed with music for those that seem interested – CDs, MP3 cards, flash drives.  Bands shouldn’t be too concerned with giving away their music vs. selling it. The primary goal is to create fans in the long run, not make a few dollars in the short run.

There’s a band we booked a few years ago that are doing really well. Touring nationally. Their band is their full-time job. They’ve gotten themselves onto a lot of the major summer festivals out there. Anyway, a couple guys from the band were always out there pushing their band. At every show and event, handing out cards, giving people CDs, almost every night. Constantly making in-roads with the tastemakers. If it wasn’t for their hard work ethic, I don’t think they’d be anywhere close to the level they’re at now.

Musician Coaching:

What would you say has separated the groups that have gone on to play bigger and bigger clubs and draw more and more people from the ones that never got an audience beyond their friends?

Howie:
Talent, drive and organization. You can get a sense of all three pretty quickly.

Musician Coaching:

Knowing what you know now- say you got to start over as a musician and
retain this knowledge – what is your best advice or guideline for building a
following?

Howie:
It’s a mix of what I’ve been referencing in my answers to your questions. I’m a big proponent of a band working really hard on their live show. If the show is something special, and the band is hard working, and employs many of the tactics I’ve referred to, then the band has a great shot. In the 90s and the first 3 or 4 years of this decade, it was all about getting a record deal. That was what was on every band’s mind. These days, many bands’ goal is to find a good agent. The diminishing influence of the major label system has evened the playing field in many ways. I think these days, if a band doesn’t have a killer live show, and they plan on having a career, they should work tirelessly on developing the best live show possible.

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For more information on Howie Schnee and his company visit Creative Entertainment Group.

I was able to ask my friend Howie Schnee the Co-Owner of Creative Entertainment Group and Co-Owner of Sullivan Hall and Sullivan Room in New York a few questions about what his job is like and what helps influence his decisions in booking bands into his clubs.  I have known Howie since the early 90s when Sullivan Hall was called the Lion’s Den.  He was in fact the first club owner to take a risk on a band I played with in college many years ago.

Howie has been responsible for building more acts on a local or regional level than any three people I know.  The Lion’s Den  (now Sullivan Hall) was one of the stepping stone clubs that most bands who wound up on Bonnaroo or  the H.O.R.D.E. tour played before becoming big regional or national acts.

Howie's Venue- Sulivan Hall

Musician Coaching:

How has the process of band /artist selection changed at the clubs in the last 10-15 years both for established artists and for the audition nights or slow nights when you are trying out new local talent. (online vs offline, more or less competition for slots etc…)

Howie:

It’s changed significantly. The immediacy of the web is mind-boggling. Almost all bands post samples of their music online. The old way was for bands to make initial contact over the phone and follow up with a press kit. By the time we received that press kit, details of that initial conversation were fuzzy at best. Besides music being immediate, there are many clues online that give a good idea as to whether or not a band has their act together so to speak such as having a robust website. Also, whether or not there’s some buzz and awareness about them like having a lot of Myspace plays, Facebook friends, Twitter followers for example. I’ll occasionally do random searches to see if there’s any interesting press about the act.

Musician Coaching:

How do you prefer to be approached by an unknown artist trying to get a
show at the clubs you book? (referral, cold calling, how materials should be
presented and where i.e. Sonicbids, myspace etc)

Howie:

It’s really best for bands to include links for all of their sites they have EPKs on – MySpace, Sonicbids, Reverb Nation, etc. Just depending upon the buyer’s preference of site(s) they like to review bands on. A band should state the basics that talent buyers would like to know: where they’re from, what genre(s) they consider themselves to be in, when and where they’ve played the market before and how it went. If a band has friends, family or any roots to New York City that will insure a decent draw, that’s a good thing to mention. Also, anything noteworthy that may garner attention – album release show, TV or radio appearances, notable press, etc.

Musician Coaching:

For a new band with few or no references that you can call to get a feel
for their following – how is the best way to approach you and how often so
as to be heard but not to annoy the hell out of you?

Howie:

References aren’t necessarily important, but professionalism and a good attitude go a long way. The other day I booked an out-of-town people who drew only 20 people to a show, on a Wednesday. Their manager followed up with a great email of thanks, but also noting how he felt strongly if we gave them a chance on a weekend night, he knew they could do 50 people at minimum. Then he followed that up with something to the effect of ‘I understand if you’d like to keep us to a week night and we’ll work hard to get to a weekend night eventually.’ His non-demanding positive attitude implored me to give him a weekend show despite the smaller draw. It also helped that their music was really good.

Musician Coaching:

Describe the volume of submissions you get on a daily or weekly basis for
artist who want to play shows at Sullivan Hall and what percentage of those
actually get in the door to play?

Howie:

There are three of us that book the club so it’s hard to say exactly. I’d estimate we probably get around 20-25 submissions a day on average. Unless a band’s music or attitude is really terrible, we give most bands a shot. First time in though, it may be on a Monday or Tuesday.

Musician Coaching:

What traits in a band member or manager make you feel like this is
someone who is serious about their business and makes you want to help them
build their following (both for you and the club)

Howie:

I alluded to it earlier. Positive attitude, non-demanding, carrying themselves professionally, strong work ethic all go a long way with me. That hard work ethic is essential if a band wants to take it to the next level. Nothing should be beneath them. I love walking out of a show and seeing a musician handing out hand bills or CDs or MP3 cards promoting their band. If I see that, and its 30 degrees and snowing, no matter what they sound like, I’ll book that band.

Musician Coaching:

Describe some of the frustrations you have with they way musicians
approach you for a gig and things that people should avoid saying / doing.

Howie:

One of the most frustrating things is when you book an act, and discover afterwards they have multiple gigs lined up in town, and they’ve never bothered to mention it. I can understand a band wanting to get out there and play a lot (although I don’t feel that’s the right approach), but they should mention it during the booking process. I think acts should be more focused on the quality of shows they do versus quantity.  Acts should be thinking in a reciprocal manor – not just ‘what can I get out of this?’

Let’s say your band can draw 50 people on a week night in New York. Your draw may be predominantly friends and fans at that point. Which is fine. Almost all bands start with friends and family. If your band starts booking 2 or more times per month, you’ll start to have diminishing returns. Now we book you after you’ve played a number of shows in town in a short period of time, and we put you on a good night on a good show, and almost no one comes out. You’ve benefited from the exposure but have offered nothing in return. You’ve spoiled your relationship with us. Bands should be thinking in reciprocal terms. Not only ‘what can we get out of this?’ but ‘what can we do for the club, or promoter, or the other bands on the bill for that matter?’

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I will be posting the rest of  my conversation with Howie in the next few weeks.  In the meantime you can check out his management and marketing company Creative Entertainment Group.

I was lucky enough to be invited by Ariel Hyatt to watch Tom Jackson work with a local band in a studio in midtown a few weeks ago.  I have never seen anyone do what Tom does.  For lack of better words he is a live music producer.  He helps bands make emotional connections with their audience and either improves a band’s live performance or gives them a whole new perspective on how to make their live show work.  Tom has worked with Taylor Swift, Casting Crowns and Jars of Clay among others.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks again for taking the time out of your busy schedule to speak with me.  I get a great deal of requests from the people I work with to give them constructive criticism on their live performance but my suggestions are usually limited to taking the microphone off of the stand, move around more and remember to engage your audience.  You on the other hand have made helping a band with their live show an art form.  Please tell me in your words what it is that you do.

Tom Jackson:

I’m a live music producer.  I do very similar things to what are record producer does except I deal with the show.   It has to do with re-arranging the songs and creating moments. If you asked me in one sentence what the goal of my work is, it is to create moments in a musician’s shows.  How you create those moments can be verbal, visual, musical…  There is a bunch of different ways.  I have been fortunate how to figure that out and do it.

I’ll tell you what it is not too- it’s not choreography, it’s not drama, it’s not dance.  It’s not goofy stuff.

Musician Coaching:

What would you say, having done this for a number of years, that the top three show killing behaviors are and what is the philosophy you use in helping people to correct these behaviors?

Tom Jackson:

Not being teachable kills the show more than anything.  To me by far that is the biggest thing. The funny thing is that we have been trained in the music industry that of course when you go into the studio you get a producer, of course you get a bio or an EPK produced by professionals.  You get help every step of the way but when it comes to the show you are magically supposed to know how to do it because you are a performer or an artist and that’s a big killer because it’s not the case.

Musician Coaching:

That’s definitely a big one.  Do you run across an archetype?  Is it the musician just standing there gazing at their shoes or maybe failing to make eye contact?

Tom Jackson:

A big thing is an artist not being able to emotionally connect with their audience.  Everybody is communicating from stage- always.  The question is what are they communicating?  What they feel like they are communicating and what they are really communicating are very often two different things.  They don’t understand that non-verbal skills are important.  How you stand, where you stand, your countenance, your authority and who you are…  So the non-verbal skills are just randomly made up and sometimes artists copy other people who don’t know what they are doing.

Musician Coaching:

Interesting, that leads into my next question.  Sometimes I see people who are killing it live musically but it they are shy or introverted and it is apparent both on and offstage.  It is just obvious that they are not comfortable in their own skin or in the role they are playing onstage.  Unless you are Robert Smith from the Cure this kind of behavior can really work against you.  Does your work involve breaking people out of their shell?  I am guessing that would apply both on and offstage.  Can you offer any advice to people who might be in that situation?

Tom Jackson:

Yea, in fact it is one of the four areas that I work with when working with an artist.  It is the psychological, the emotional and spiritual part of who they are and who you are is more important that what you do.  It takes a relationship to be able to prod people and free them up.  What you want to do is to create freedom in the room, in a rehearsal room and then obviously in a venue that you are playing in so there can be an emotional love fest.  If you are bound up in your emotions or self conscious all the time- then it’s more than likely not going to happen.

Musician Coaching:

And this is something that you help people learn?

Tom Jackson:

Yes, in fact one of my biggest comments over the years has been that “Tom helped free me.”  It’s helping people deal with fear… It’s what I call authority.  Being able to have authority on stage – it’s not arrogance.  In fact, authority comes from humility.  I can’t teach authority but I can be a psychologist and help lead them to that place.  I can show them what IS working and through that help them gain more confidence and authority a process that hopefully perpetuates itself.  Hopefully they gain more and more and more and eventually this performer becomes a monster, in a good way.

Musician Coaching:

It sounds like some of what you do is guiding people to their strengths rather than “step this way” or “walk that way”…

Tom Jackson:

That’s the misconception of what I do.  That’s really only 10-15% of it.  The re-arranging of the songs, the psychology we have been talking about and the vision for the shows are more important.  One of the reasons artists do not succeed is because they have lost the vision for their shows.  They are just out playing songs and without vision you end up nowhere.  So it is much more than choreography.

Musician Coaching:

Let’s talk about arrangement…

Tom Jackson:

That is actually the thing that I spend more time on than anything.

Musician Coaching:

It makes sense that people would spend a great deal of time on arranging a song for radio but it doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t spend time on arranging a song to go over well live.

Tom Jackson:

Yes, that’s exactly right.

Musician Coaching:

I also wanted to talk to you about the difference between large and small shows.  You help people prepare to play in front of big crowds, as that is the end game in your work, but can you explain what the difference would be in coaching someone to play in front of a large audience vs. a small audience?  Is there a difference in stage behavior when playing in front of 40 people at a club vs. playing a big shed?  Is the emotional connection you often speak about different in those two situations?

Tom Jackson:

Conceptually the answer is there is no difference.  You still need to make an emotional connection, technically there are still things you can do while performing, songs do need to be re-arranged for live performance and you still need a vision.  Yes I spend most of my consulting or producing is with acts that are signed but most of my teaching is for indies who are just coming up.

  Honestly, I do very little different with someone like Taylor Swift.  Sure I have more tools to play with, you know, most people don’t have a waterfall to fall under at the end of their set.  That’s not the norm… but the concept is the same.  The waterfall is the payoff.  We may not have a waterfall but what payoff can we use to get the response in a club with 40 people that will get a response in that room.  If you practice that…  I have never seen an artist who developed these concepts not grow.

Musician Coaching:

In watching you work you discussed the “cheese factor” it was great of you to point out that too much rehearsal and too much planning can backfire.  When people don’t have someone like you to give them feedback and are trying to improve their live show- how do they know when they have gone too far?  Is this something they have to test live?

Tom Jackson:

A lot of it has to do with testing things out live but when it comes to cheese factor there are two reasons you get cheese.  One is not enough rehearsal in other words you’ve got something in your head but it isn’t in muscle memory.  It looks like you are thinking about it and nobody wants to watch somebody think.  Thinking about smiling or thinking about raising their arms or walking to a certain place.  So in one way it’s not enough rehearsal.  The other side is when there is too much rehearsal.  Things can be so rehearsed that they become mechanical.  It’s about finding that balance…

Musician Coaching:

When watching you work recently I noticed that you went out of your way to coach the group to use the whole stage and you went as far as moving the monitors to give them more room.  Explain the logic of this if you could

Tom Jackson:

I try to get rid of the barriers between me and the audience and not just the barriers.  When I walk into a venue mostly everything is set up for the production people.  The second thing it is set up for is the artist and the third thing that it is set up for is the audience and that’s backwards.  It needs to be the audience first, the artist and then whoever is setting up the gear.  I fight for every inch I can so I can have an emotional connection with the audience.  I have played gigs where I have fought for an extra eight inches so I could get that much closer to the audience at the right time.

I’ll finish with this.  What make a good hotel great?  It’s the little things.  It’s not flying beds.  It’s fat towels.  It’s a phone by the toilet.  It’s a mint on the pillow.  It’s all the little things.  There is not much difference between a good hotel and a great hotel when it comes down to the basics – bed, TV, dresser, bathroom but – and this is for any artist reading this – who gets more money?

Musician Coaching:

So that’s the difference between the Holiday Inn and the Ritz Carlton.

Tom Jackson:

Totally and we have this routine of taking whatever comes out way and not going the extra mile and not learning the things we are talking about to make that difference.  Artists need to provide their audience with an experience to have an emotional connection, not something random.

You asked me earlier about mistakes artists make – every artist has experienced those moments on stage that are magical.  For some reason the planets align, you can actually hear the monitors and everything is working and there is a love fest in the room.  Here’s the problem- they don’t know why it happened.  The next night you go out and do the exact same thing and it won’t work and the artist doesn’t know why.  Without sounding arrogant, I know why.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks again for your time Tom, this has been great.

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If you would like to find out more about Tom’s DVDs and / or get some guidance from him on your live show please visit  www.onstagesuccess.com

I just got back home from the New Music Seminar which was held today Tuesday, July 21st at one of the NYU buildings just south of Washington Square Park. The last time I had stood on that spot I was watching Elliot Smith perform at the building that preceded the one I stood in today- at the time it was called the Loeb Student center. It was also at the Loeb student center that I attended my first music conference as a musician trying to get my band signed or be a famous musician or whatever unrealistic albeit wonderful thoughts danced around my marijuana soaked head in those days. I guess it was fifteen years ago, and it was NYU’s “Independent Music Festival” 1994 that I tried to get my band noticed with a cassette of three of songs from my band. I got the only advice that ever really resonated with me as a musician that day, just six words: “play out as much as possible.”

The band broke up, I got an internship at a big record label that became an assistant job and so on until a few years later I became a jaded A&R executive who had spoken dozens on panels and had done my best to answer the same old questions that I had asked when on the other side of the panel.

It was wild to be back in the audience after having been on both sides of the stage and now somewhat removed from the emotional attachment of clearly belonging to either the artist or the executive side. (I still play for kicks and on the other side- I don’t quite consider myself an executive in the same way I did when I was a label guy).

I stayed for the keynote speech by Courtney Holt (President of MySpace Music), a panel called “Welcome to the New Music Business: Everything You Know is wrong” which featured Ian Rogers, Matthieu Drouin, Mark Ghuneim, Bruce Houghton & Jeff Price and a second panel called “Fan relationship management: Quit your day Job” which featured Tom Silverman, Steve Greenberg, Terry McBride, Ted Cohen, Tim Westergren & Emily White.

This is not an insult to the New Music Seminar- I am very glad I went but it’s funny how the company names had changed, most companies were now followed by “.com” or “music” rather than “records” and it is now thankfully much more acceptable to say “I don’t know” rather than slinging some incredible amount of bullshit. It does seem however, as if the music conference is much as it was fifteen years ago. There is a big disconnect between the panels and the audience. In my opinion people who come to panels desperately want very tangible solutions to very real problems about the basics of building their business rather than abstract conversations about the problems of artists who are several rungs higher than they are on the food chain. Granted I missed the “your live show and tour” panel which featured many successful artists who had done it themselves – I’m told it was great. It just never ceases to amaze me how the majority of music business professionals can’t articulate anything about the process by which an artist builds their business on their own so that they are even worth the attention of those same professionals.

I am off and running now but I am going to do my best to provide as much information as I can that worked for me building a local following when I was playing regular shows. Sure, I was armed with cassettes and only got my first email account in 1994 but some of the principals are still the same.

PS – We can all stop flogging the dead and decomposing horse that is the major record label – we get it already.