This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
Vikki Walls is the Executive Director of the Dewey Beach Music Conference & Festival, held annually in Dewey Beach, Delaware. A lifelong music fan, Vikki got her start in the music industry when she decided to start her own band t-shirt business and then started booking night clubs and managing bands. She eventually stepped out of her management role when she decided that she could help more bands succeed by setting up her own music conferences and festivals, where she could bring her industry contacts together with talented artists. Together with John Harris, she started the Millennium Music Conference in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and then eventually started the Dewey Music Conference & Festival. She has been running and participating in music festivals and conferences for over 15 years. She has also worked as co-editor of the artist resource The Musician’s Atlas and was the music expert for eBay for five years.
Vikki spoke with me about her experience in the music industry, qualities she looks for when booking bands for her festival and how artists can use music festivals and conferences to forge relationships with industry decision makers and find opportunities to build their careers.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, Vikki. How did you get into the music business, and how did it lead you to run conferences and festivals?
VW:
I was a legal secretary. And I decided I didn’t want to do that anymore. I thought I wasn’t doing what I was really meant to do. I followed a band I really liked and noticed they had no t-shirts or merchandising. So, I started a t-shirt company and did t-shirts for them. Finally, I was making more money there than I was being a legal secretary, so I quit and decided to run the t-shirt company full time.
Then, I started booking night clubs. Then I started managing bands, and I did that for quite some time. After that, I decided to focus on my career. Managing bands is a lot of hard work, and you can only take a band so far. I worked really hard. So, I said, “I’m going to work as hard on my career as I did on theirs.” I decided I really just needed to step out of the management scene.
I started the Millennium Music conference in Harrisburg with John Harris. And that was because bands kept asking me to manage them and for advice and help. So, I thought, why not set up a little conference and bring in a bunch of my contacts for these artists to meet, as opposed to just handling one band at a time? I felt I could help more bands that way. I worked on getting tradeshow exhibitors, sponsors and the panelists. I worked on the bands and organized it with John. That all came about because I had a compilation CD of central PA bands that I put out for free. And the Crossroads Music conference in Memphis got a hold of it and really liked all the bands. They gave me my own showcase at Crossroads. And from that, we took six bands from central PA. One was a band that John managed called The Martini Brothers.
So, we all went down and did the conference and hung out. At that time, John was booking several night clubs and was a banquet manager at the Best Western in Harrisburg. So, he had the venue. And we got back, and he said, “We could probably do this.” And I said I knew enough people. That’s when we decided to join forces. I decided I would bring in my contacts, and he would organize the rest. We started from scratch, not really knowing what we were doing. But because I had been to South by Southwest a minimum of 15 years, and I had done the conference circuit. Paul Sacksman from Musician Magazine was always taking me around the country and putting me on panels about do it yourself for bands. So, we decided that information was what bands really wanted. And since I wasn’t managing anymore, I started that.
I was still working for The Musician’s Atlas. Paul left Musician Magazine and started working on that. I became co-editor and helped put it together with him and Martin Feldman. And one year, I was at South by Southwest. I met the people from eBay across the booth from me and struck up a really good relationship with them. A couple months later, they stole me and made me the music expert for eBay for five years. In the meantime, I was still doing Millennium because it was just a once-per-year thing, so I could do both.
Then, I was really good friends with the owner of the Bottle & Cork in Dewey Beach. The Bottle & Cork is also a venue where the bands I used to manage played. And I even took the owner to South by Southwest many times because he’s such a music fan. He called me right after I left eBay, when they got rid of me and their other independent consultants. I had actually called him to see if he would come to Millennium to speak. And he said, “I just bought the whole Rusty Rudder complex. This might be a really cool place to have a conference. I know about your one in Harrisburg, which is well respected in the community.” So, I went down and met with him and looked at everything. And I said, “You’re right. Bands at the beach. It’s beautiful, and has a really cool vibe. Let’s try it.”
We did it there the first year, ten years ago. And after that, I realized it was a lot of work. And he had a lot more work for me to do and wanted me to do more here, including becoming the Talent Buyer for the Bottle & Cork. So, I left Millennium and figured I would concentrate on Dewey and use my contacts and do what I had to do to make Dewey the conference I wanted it to be. I just really liked everything about it. And the owner is wonderful. He will say, “I have all these restaurants. Let’s throw parties and feed the musicians.” He comes up with great ideas. As far as the organizing of it, that’s me selecting all the bands and getting the paperwork together, getting sponsors, and about a thousand other little details it takes to pull off even a small conference like ours, along with some very good friends from my Harrisburg days who have come to help me every year during the event and are now the core staff.
Obviously with the conference, you’re looking for people who are talented, people who have the capability for commercial success and that are really running their careers as businesses. What advice would you for artists as someone that has run music conferences for many years?
VW:
We take submissions through Sonicbids and ReverbNation. And my first advice to bands is to make sure their EPKs or whatever they send me in the mail are as up to date as possible. I can’t tell you how many times I go to an EPK, and a band will submit, but there will be no photograph, or there won’t be a bio, or they won’t list their gigs. Some of them, believe it or not, don’t even give me music.
I really read everything, study every band, listen to every band. I actually even try to Google a band if they don’t give me anything to go on. But that’s really a lot of work to ask me to do when I’m listening to so many bands. And it does get very frustrating. They need to keep up their site and make it as current as they can, list the clubs that book them and the festivals they’ve played, any kind of film or TV placement they’ve had, bands that they’ve opened for. These are key things that people like me are looking for. And, I feel that if the 9:30 Club is booking you, I should be booking you.
Sure. And you want to know a band is active, which means a list of current show dates. This is better than if the last show you played was two months ago.
VW:
Yeah. And I want to see that you’re not just playing two clubs in your hometown and that you’re actually getting a fan base from other places. Because of where I’m at in my career, I have to bring in a lot of really good bands. And I think I’ve built up that reputation. People that come to my event and any festival with a good reputation know they’re going to see good bands. But the bands are not the draw – the festival is. And the locals will come because they know they will see really good bands and not be disappointed. That’s why I am really hard on who I select. And I only have 120-125 slots.
If you are a band, does it help to have your industry contacts’ help to get into festivals? Does knowing someone in the industry or connected to you or the festival improve their chances and speed up the process?
VW:
Definitely. The industry folks that have attended have such a good time, they pass it on to other people and tell other bands about it. And people from other festivals come to ours and will pass me information about bands they think would be good for the festival. And some of my agents from William Morris and other places will turn me on to baby bands that they’re trying to work on getting booked. They’ll get all those bands to submit. It makes for a nice cross section of all kinds of music from all different levels, from singer/songwriters, to bands from Canada. I get it from all ways. And the goal is really just to keep the quality really good.
If you were a band coming into Dewey or Millenium what are some of the things you should be doing to promote yourself, get attention and build relationships before, during and after the festival? I can’t even compare it to South by Southwest, because that’s so huge it doesn’t work the same way.
VW:
Oh, yes. That’s so big. That’s one benefit of a smaller festival like ours. We’re small, and you see the same people all weekend. The reason I throw these VIP parties – and these are for all the bands – is to get everyone all under one roof so that everyone can network in a relaxed atmosphere. You’re having a few drinks and eating great food. And you’re in the same room with the producers, talent buyers, label executives and all the sponsors and tradeshow people. We’re all there together.
It’s the same thing I did as a manager when I would go to a music conference. I tell bands when they get accepted to try to come for the whole three days. There’s really no reason not to, because it’s free. We don’t even charge a badge fee to the bands that submit or the bands that play. Even the bands that don’t get selected get badges.
That’s pretty common I think. If you get accepted, you get a badge for the event.
VW:
Probably now. But, I don’t know if it was that way ten years ago. I always remember having to buy badges for the bands I managed. But I’ve always offered them free to bands. And I am not sure if other events in the country give free badges to all bands that submit for consideration, regardless if they are selected to showcase or not. This is our way of giving back to them to still give them a chance to schmooze, network, and participate in the panels, mentoring, etc.
Generally, if you’re coming to any festival, you should plan to go for all the days – in the case of my festival, all three days. And you go to the first VIP party, where everybody is schmoozing. You can tell the bands that work it, because they’re at every panel, they’re walking the floor of the tradeshow, they’re doing the mentoring sessions and the clinics. They get there at 10:30 in the morning, and they’re still doing business at 7 p.m. They really work it. They walk around and hand out literature. But, the biggest thing is, they’re taking every bit of advice and putting stuff in the goodie bags, etc.
At our conference, we give every band a half-page ad in the conference directory. So, as a band, you need to make your ad look really good, tell people where you’re playing and help promote yourselves. It’s like the band Halestorm from Harrisburg. They always knew how to work the conference. They would do everything. They would get up and do open mics, jump up on stage with other people, do the afternoon acoustic performance. They would even bring cookies, coffee and food to myself and staff in the mornings because they knew what our days were like running this event.
And they were subsequently signed to Atlantic.
VW:
And a lot of it was attributable to their participation in a music festival. The producer found them at the festival, there were a couple showcases with industry people that came to, and ultimately Atlantic took them on.
As a band, if you want to make the most out of going to a festival, you should attend all days of the conference, go to as many panels as you can instead of just showing up to do your 40-minute set. There are a lot of business-related things going on during the day that you need to participate in, including clinics, workshops, mentoring sessions, panels and tradeshow events. You also need to walk the street and hand out fliers.
It seems obvious to those that have gone, but a lot of artists forget how important doing all these activities at festivals is.
VW:
I know. And we still get people that don’t understand the importance of doing the whole event. It’s the festival part they want to do. They don’t realize that the conference part is what is really going to make a difference for them with their careers.
And I would imagine they need to research potential people they want to meet beforehand. There’s really no excuse now that we have LinkedIn and all the other social networking sites. When you find out someone’s participating, you use the information you can find online and find an excuse to reach out to them at the event. Have you found this type of research and networking to be helpful?
VW:
Yes. Because we do list the panelists, and we do provide information about them before the event, and so do many of the other festivals. And musicians should take advantage of that. As a musician, you should also check out the trade show exhibitors. If you go to any conference, you will see all that information at your fingertips, so you can do your advance work before you even set foot in town.
I found, especially in my experience as an A&R guy going to festivals, I would feel so assaulted by artists. Which guidelines would you give artists for approaching music industry gatekeepers at a festival?
VW:
I’ve been guilty of the same thing. When I first started managing bands, I would go to conferences and just after the panel, approach people saying, “Take my CD, take my bio.” And that’s your first natural instinct – to just keep passing stuff on. But I realized it was better to make the introduction, take a business card, make a connection and send the CD, bio and other materials later. Because, you know how many CDs they go home with.
I think bands learn not to be that way that after a few times. They’re just so happy to be someplace where there are industry people. So, they’re very aggressive at it. Once you learn a better way to approach people – by not hounding them, things get better. Also, you shouldn’t do things like fax them or email them every day about your showcase. I used to see bands do that all the time.
Just be smart about it. Don’t get in people’s faces. And realize that everybody’s really busy. Your appearance, your show and the way you handle yourself will get the right person interested.
Can you give some examples of people that were really successful at showing up at the conference and creating a buzz about their show?
VW:
A few come to mind. The band The Kin from Australia/New York City is one example. They played the festival numerous times. They did everything it took: put stuff in the goodie bag; put a song on the compilation CD; walked around and did things right; did the acoustic daytime stage. They would go out in the middle of the audience and sing without instruments. They handled themselves very well and were very professional. You could tell they had worked it from the time they got there Thursday, to the time their show was Saturday, because everybody was there – not only the locals, but all the industry and tradeshow guys had to see this band, because they just fell in love with them.
Obviously one of the major connectors at any small festival would be the person who plays your role – the person booking the talent. So, I would guess that somebody effectively working you and getting you as a supporter is a pretty big key to that as well.
VW:
Yes; because when I hear something I’m really into, I will tell people. I get really excited to see that band. And the one this year that struck me was a band from Pittsburgh called Lovebettie. She has star quality, an amazing image and she stayed in image the entire time. She was so friendly, and they just really worked it. And they were still selling CDs for 90 minutes after their set. That’s really amazing.
Clearly, for anyone looking for empirical evidence of interest, there it is.
VW:
There are certain bands that just really know how to work it. Unfortunately, while I try to pay attention to as much as I can, there are so many things going on with trying to put together the weekend that I’m everywhere. I don’t really get a lot of time to spend with a lot of people. But I do see at night how it comes together and works. And I do hear from the industry that is there about who impressed them during the day that made them want to come see them at night.
For example, Paul Sacksman from Musician still comes every year. He’s an independent consultant now. He goes and sees every band he mentors. He doesn’t care where they are or what they’re doing. If he mentored them over the weekend, he goes to their gig. And that means a lot to those kids that he mentored. That shows that attending the mentoring events works. I don’t know if everybody does that, but I think it’s very cool that he does.
To learn more about Vikki Walls, visit the Dewey Beach Music Conference & Festival website.
Bob Knight is a drummer and the owner of BEK Music Ltd., a company based in the UK that provides session musicians ranging from soloists, horn and rhythm sections, to complete orchestras. Originally from Harrogate in Northern England, Bob grew up studying music, eventually earning a jazz degree at the Royal Academy of Music in London, where he studied with renowned musicians including Bernard Purdie, Clare Fischer and John Abercrombie. Throughout his 16-year career as a session musician and musical director, he has performed, recorded, toured with, and directed many prominent artists including Charlotte Church, Seal, Eminem, Nik Kershaw, Michael Bolton and Cee-Lo Green.
I recently got to sit down with Bob and talk about the evolution of his music career, the qualities an artist needs to have in order to get steady work as a session musician and some advice he has for musicians that want to make it in the music industry.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk, Bob. What does your current work in the music industry entail?
BK:
I kind of have a dual personality. I exist as a drummer/musical director. And then I have a fixing company. The fixing company itself is called BEK Music Ltd. It’s really just a name for registration purposes, but I tend to go by my own name, because it’s a bit more succinct. It also avoids some complication, because sometimes people who work for me, especially the younger generation, don’t realize I play music. They just think I put things together, because they haven’t seen me play or I haven’t played with them. Sometimes people who know that I play don’t know I can put things together for them if they require it. The company is a way to make sure everyone knows about everything I do.
And how did you get your start in music?
BK:
I started out a lot like everyone starts out. I’m from the North of England, from Yorkshire County from a town called Harrogate, which was a great town to grow up in. It was very geared towards the encouragement of youth music and education, and the programs were beautifully run and well involved. It was kind of a middle-class town. I studied there privately with some great drum teachers.
After I left Harrogate, I moved to London to go to the Royal Academy of Music. I did the four-year jazz degree there, which was amazing. It’s a hard course to get into. They only take eight players each year from around the world: one drummer; one bass player; one piano player; a couple horns and a singer. It was a whole day of auditions. But they have the greatest teachers and the greatest visiting faculty. If someone’s in town playing a show, the college will get an “in.” So, I had master classes and one-on-one lessons with Bernard Purdie, Clare Fischer, John Abercrombie – really heavy people.
I studied there for four years. I’m quite lucky because my brother is four years older than I. He went to Berklee and then he came to the Academy. So, I’ve always had the benefit of hindsight, because I’ve been able to see – not the mistakes that he’s made, but the problems that he’s faced trying to get established in an industry that’s already oversaturated and unregulated.
Before I graduated, I made sure I had some teaching opportunities lined up and had made fairly decent in roads with corporate function bands, etc. So, I knew I could sustain a living from music regardless of “making it” in commercial music. For me, and for anybody on the session musician side of things – not necessarily if you’re an artist – you have to do a little bit of self preservation, because of the nature of the business; there are a lot of things they don’t tell you in college about taxes, bookkeeping and accounting. It’s all quite boring, but it’s incredibly necessary. There were a lot of musicians that came out of college and got massively stuck by either earning huge amounts of money – because they got on a big gig and didn’t deal with it properly – or who could’ve gotten benefits or paid less tax because they didn’t understand what they should be registered for and how they should deal with it.
I was prepared when I left college. And I did a couple years of teaching and scratching around, playing everywhere I could and never saying no to a gig; I still try to keep that as an ethos now, especially if it’s with people I never play with. But my brother and the guys I knew that were older than me and playing clubs had opportunities come their way, one of which was my friend Steve, who got made music director (MD) for Alison Moyet. I started with her in 2003, and I still play with her now. We’ve done six or seven big tours.
Alison’s manager used to do the press for Charlotte Church, so I started playing with her and working as her MD. She had just put an album out, and we did a very small tour, because she didn’t really like touring. And then, she got her own TV show on Channel 4 here, which at the time was more cutting edge than other channels. We did three seasons of that show – over 33 shows. We had a 9-piece house band, not unlike a Letterman-type situation. And at the end of the show every week, she would do a duet with the guest. We had artists like Fergie, Nelly Furtado and the Manic Street Preachers. My job was to sort the arrangements for the theme music and all the other music played. And then – just to meet the artist and make them feel comfortable – we would prep the artist and talk to them through email in advance and argue about the key, etc. and a lot of other things drummers don’t often think about.
It sounds like as much as you are a drummer, you are also a music director and thus somebody who knows his way around arrangement.
BK:
I’ll be honest with you. The key thing I do is book a really good band. If you book a great band, most of the arrangement takes care of itself. I never write arrangements out in manuscript form – never physically score or arrange music. I book great players. And I trust a great guitar player knows more about playing the guitar than I know. I can tell him the feel I want and what I’m looking for and then let him find the part. I do the same with horns. I always book a section that work together and know how to communicate. I am a pretty traditional drummer in the sense that my harmonic knowledge is fairly piss poor. It’s as basic as it needed to be to earn my degree. And since then, I haven’t spent lots of time working on it.
By booking the right people with the right mindset and the right ability, I am able to be the MD. I’ve found that the majority of the responsibility that falls on the musical director relates to dealing with record companies, management and making an artist feel comfortable, secure and supported. And it’s also about establishing a decent line between having a good time and taking care of business.
You’ve hired a lot of musicians over the course of your career. And I know a lot of people that have been banging their heads against a wall in their original project and saying, “I love playing music so much, I have to figure out a way to stay involved. I better do some hired gun work.” What is it that you’re looking for in a session player, other than talent? And where do you find quality session musicians?
BK:
I’ll tell you what I look for. And then I’ll tell you how I come across people.
The most important thing for me, talent aside, is finding musicians that understand the music. It sounds flippant. But I’m not a fan of the gospel chops approach of playing higher, faster, louder, better. I think a lot of people don’t really grow out of that. I’ve seen so many people blow auditions by getting their chops out, because they feel that they need to prove they can play rather than just play the song. The majority of things I book are song based. So, chops aren’t that important. You need to have a degree of facility or technique beyond the music you’re playing, but that’s kind of a given. We all studied lots of things we don’t necessarily need so they would open up our musical vocabulary.
Personally, I’m really looking for people with ears, people with a good attitude and people who go the extra mile when the paycheck doesn’t necessarily dictate that they have to. I want them to want to go that extra mile because they care about turning in a good performance. Obviously, budgets these days are a real fight. I’m also looking for people who are socially aware and know how to behave in front of an artist and with other musicians. And because I’m a drummer, I’m always looking for the feel.
From a non-musical perspective, I need people to be punctual, always. You can never be the last in the lobby. You should always strive to be the first for a bus call, a lobby call or a sound check. To turn up last, a minute before the call time and say, “I’m here on time” really isn’t good enough for me. Specific timings are set out by tour managers as the latest you can arrive, not the time you should arrive; because there’s something that can go wrong – public transport or your own private transport, etc. If people are late for me, I usually give them a three strikes option. And on the third strike, they get fired. I’ve seen it through on a couple occasions, and it’s not particularly pretty. I don’t think people think you’re actually going to do it. But in a professional environment, music can be a bit deceptive: it feels quite social; everyone is getting on; you’re not in an office. I think sometimes people forget they’re at work, and they think they can take a lot of liberties.
Of course, maintenance of equipment and general personal hygiene, etc., as ridiculous as it sounds, are all really important. You don’t want guys coming on tour with a toothbrush and one shirt when you’re away for six weeks. But you’d be amazed.
As a bass player, I’m a hobbyist at this point. But I was always amazed at the gigs I got to hang onto just by being sober, punctual and doing what the part called for rather than overplaying. I can play eighth notes and I can play them really well.
BK:
That’s all you need. You’re hired!
It’s just always funny to hear it out loud.
How did you progress past Charlotte Church into having a fixing business? And what exactly is a fixing business?
BK:
With the Charlotte gig, I fixed the band; I put it together. A “fixer” is essentially the same as a contractor in the States. But we don’t work on contracts in the UK, so the range of what I do is fairly broad. Because of all the guests that came on Charlotte’s show, I met all the record company people. As you know, there are only four labels: Universal; Sony; EMI and Warner Bros. And they pretty much own everything else, unless I’m missing anybody.
There are a few large independents, but those represent the majority, sure.
BK:
For over 33 shows, I met all the reps for promo and good in roads there. I should go back a bit. Even before I got a gig with Alison or Charlotte – in about 1998 or 1999 – there were a couple people I was working with doing this fixing kind of thing. Neither of them were musicians. And neither of them were doing it very well in my opinion, because they didn’t know who to book or what they were booking. Essentially, I saw a gap in the market. And I knew people at a couple labels.
I bought a crappy old black-and-white camera, got in my beat-up car and drove around the whole of London photographing friends of mine in black and white standing against brick walls to make a portfolio book and try to get labels to take meetings with me so I could tell them I could supply them with musicians. I had a meeting with Steve Lillywhite, who was head of Mercury Records at that point. I knew him through a few different degrees of separation. He and a couple other guys saw my portfolio, and I managed to speak to a girl at Warner Bros. who was head of TV promotions.
For a while, I didn’t hear anything from anybody. But I kept building the book. And I was dropping cold emails and cold calls to people to let them know this is what I did. It took two years before I got a call. And the first call I got was from Sarah Adams at Warner Bros, who needed a TV band for Craig David. He had a touring band, but they wanted a younger look to do his TV appearances. I had the photographs all ready and had scanned everything into my computer, so I put a band for his shows on TV together.
At the time, there were a lot more shows on TV in Britain than there are now. And that band I put together did the whole campaign, which was about nine or ten shows. And then someone else in Sarah’s office said, “That band looked great. Where did you get them from?” So, she passed my number along.
And that was literally how it grew. I’ve been doing it for ten years now. As I was saying before, it was all about booking the right people who had the right attitude and turned up at the right time with the right dress, had learned the track, etc. Pretty much 85% of the live music on TV in the UK is mine.
Are you also doing fixing for people who need a touring band when there’s no television appearances?
BK:
I’m taking all kinds of calls now. But it wasn’t that way at first. I was predominantly mining TV stuff. So, through that, I would meet management and other members of labels. Most live things tend to come from different parts of the company or direct from an artist or their management, rather than through promotions; because by the time a project gets to promotions it’s mostly complete.
That’s how my fixing business got started. And it’s really progressed from there in the same way your career progresses when you’re a musician. Through word of mouth, by being organized and by delivering what I’m asked to deliver when I’m asked to deliver it, word has spread. And maintaining relationships with people has been really important.
So, your business is built largely on being affable and on being someone people keep in touch with and vice versa. It sounds like you’re a living example of someone whose Rolodex has sustained his musical career.
BK:
Yeah. I would agree with that.
And how are you balancing running a music business with being a session player and keeping your chops together?
BK:
I find it easy, to be honest. The internet is everywhere, and I have a smartphone and all the other necessary tools. The only thing working against me sometimes is the time difference. But if I’m in L.A. or New York, and I have to get up at stupid o’clock, then I just have to get up at stupid o’clock. And when you’re touring, there’s plenty of downtime. So, if I have to deal with something urgent related to my business when I’m out on tour, I can usually get it done. Most things you get good notice on.
On the live side, things take care of themselves. It’s very rare someone calls me needing to fix a whole band. There’s a girl called Rumer on Atlantic who I’m MD’ing for at the moment. And for her, I don’t fix the band. I just put the band together, because it’s very important to me that everyone gets paid fairly and correctly. And when we got the gig, the wages weren’t spectacular. And I didn’t feel it was right to take a commission there. So, I took an MD rate. But while the band is answerable to me, they essentially work for themselves. They’re not invoicing me; they’re invoicing her or the label.
Some of my friends that are MDs will put their own band together. But then they might call me. For example, there’s a band called Hurts that’s doing really well in Europe. They’re just now going to arenas. Their MD Pete is a friend of mine. And he will call me and say, “I need a girl who can sing, play the saxophone and play the violin.”
That’s pretty specific.
BK:
It’s very specific, and it’s also very unlikely. But because I know loads of people from college, from being out of college and making it well known that I do this kind of thing for a job, lots of people have gravitated towards me or have been recommended. I knew one girl who could do all those things, and I had to see if she was free. She had been on the road for most of last year just playing violin, but had just finished. I was able to negotiate her wages, put everything in place and send her down for an audition. She got the gig and has been out with them for about seven months.
On a gig like that, I don’t have to deal with any day-to-day stuff. I just deal with the invoicing, any contract negotiations for DVD or TV buyouts and other things like that. She becomes the responsibility of the tour manager. She and I have no contracts. She knows if she decides she doesn’t want to work for me anymore, she’ll never work for me again and I’ll never put her up for anything again. More often than not, that type of relationship is good enough, so you don’t have to contract people.
Contracts for session musicians don’t exist here. I’ve never had a contract as a session musician ever. I don’t know what it’s like in the U.S. But over here, you don’t get a contract for a tour or anything else similar. At the higher end, I’ve had musicians with contracts. For example, I have a girl out on tour with Shakira playing violin and a bunch of other things that has a contract. When an artist is that big and is playing arenas and some stadiums, they obviously need everyone on contract because of the sheer volume of people. But on a tour with a six-piece band and a ten-piece crew that is doing festivals and five- or six-week runs in different parts of Europe, it’s very rare you have a contract.
With something like Shakira, there’s insurance and liability, etc. You’d have to have that all nailed down.
It also sounds like your music direction and your fixing has improved your ability to find gigs as a drummer and that you’ve really leveraged one against the other.
BK:
I already had a reputation as a drummer. And contrary to popular belief, I don’t just work for myself. I play with a lot of other artists and get booked by other people – including other fixers – to play drums. And playing drums is my passion. It is always first and foremost. But as a session musician, there is a lot of downtime. And I’m not one for resting on my laurels. So, with my business, I saw what I thought was an opportunity.
I definitely have gotten some gigs because I’ve done something well for somebody as a drummer. And then maybe they needed a guitar player or someone who played the saxophone or guitar and as a result has come back to me on their next project and said, “We need a whole band for this.” And if I’m suited to it, I’ll also play drums. I’m very much aware of what my strengths are and aren’t as a drummer. I don’t really work with electronics. That’s not to say I won’t, but I haven’t as of yet. If something in that category comes in without a lot of prep time, I have guys I call.
If I’m being honest, I’ve managed to keep the two things I do very separate. And I like it that way. That’s why I set up the company in a way that, although it’s my initials, it’s not instantly recognizable to someone who might say “That’s Bob Knight, I know him,” or, “That’s Bob Knight, I don’t know him.” I still feel like I have something to prove as a drummer, as a result of people knowing me for doing many other things.
From the perspective of your 16 years of experience, which advice do you think would’ve helped you if you had heard it when you were just starting out?
BK:
Always give a good account of yourself, professionally and musically. Make sure that wherever you are or whatever gig you are on – regardless of how bad or how brilliant (but mostly of how bad) it seems – you are always giving your best. People always say, “You never know who is in the audience.” And you think, “That’s bullshit.” But, for example, I play with Nik Kershaw, and I’m very proud to do so. I grew up listening to his music. And I got that gig because I played a wedding with Nik’s bass player. And unbeknownst to me, the bass player went back to Nik and said, “I know who we need to get to play drums on the next tour.” And I’ve been holding that gig down for three or four years now.
With that in mind, you should always give the best account you can.
To learn more about Bob Knight, his business and his music, please visit the Bob Knight Drums website.
I was lucky enough to be invited by Ariel Hyatt to watch Tom Jackson work with a local band in a studio in midtown a few months ago. I have never seen anyone do what Tom does. For lack of better words he is a live music producer. He helps bands make emotional connections with their audience and either improves a band’s live performance or gives them a whole new perspective on how to make their live show work. Tom has worked with Taylor Swift, Casting Crowns and Jars of Clay among others.
Thanks again for taking the time out of your busy schedule to speak with me. I get a great deal of requests from the people I work with to give them constructive criticism on their live performance but my suggestions are usually limited to taking the microphone off of the stand, move around more and remember to engage your audience. You on the other hand have made helping a band with their live show an art form. Please tell me in your words what it is that you do.
Tom Jackson:
I’m a live music producer. I do very similar things to what are record producer does except I deal with the show. It has to do with re-arranging the songs and creating moments. If you asked me in one sentence what the goal of my work is, it is to create moments in a musician’s shows. How you create those moments can be verbal, visual, musical… There is a bunch of different ways. I have been fortunate how to figure that out and do it.
I’ll tell you what it is not too- it’s not choreography, it’s not drama, it’s not dance. It’s not goofy stuff.
What would you say, having done this for a number of years, that the top three show killing behaviors are and what is the philosophy you use in helping people to correct these behaviors?
Tom Jackson:
Not being teachable kills the show more than anything. To me by far that is the biggest thing. The funny thing is that we have been trained in the music industry that of course when you go into the studio you get a producer, of course you get a bio or an EPK produced by professionals. You get help every step of the way but when it comes to the show you are magically supposed to know how to do it because you are a performer or an artist and that’s a big killer because it’s not the case.
That’s definitely a big one. Do you run across an archetype? Is it the musician just standing there gazing at their shoes or maybe failing to make eye contact?
Tom Jackson:
A big thing is an artist not being able to emotionally connect with their audience. Everybody is communicating from stage- always. The question is what are they communicating? What they feel like they are communicating and what they are really communicating are very often two different things. They don’t understand that non-verbal skills are important. How you stand, where you stand, your countenance, your authority and who you are… So the non-verbal skills are just randomly made up and sometimes artists copy other people who don’t know what they are doing.
Interesting, that leads into my next question. Sometimes I see people who are killing it live musically but it they are shy or introverted and it is apparent both on and offstage. It is just obvious that they are not comfortable in their own skin or in the role they are playing onstage. Unless you are Robert Smith from the Cure this kind of behavior can really work against you. Does your work involve breaking people out of their shell? I am guessing that would apply both on and offstage. Can you offer any advice to people who might be in that situation?
Tom Jackson:
Yea, in fact it is one of the four areas that I work with when working with an artist. It is the psychological, the emotional and spiritual part of who they are and who you are is more important that what you do. It takes a relationship to be able to prod people and free them up. What you want to do is to create freedom in the room, in a rehearsal room and then obviously in a venue that you are playing in so there can be an emotional love fest. If you are bound up in your emotions or self conscious all the time- then it’s more than likely not going to happen.
And this is something that you help people learn?
Tom Jackson:
Yes, in fact one of my biggest comments over the years has been that “Tom helped free me.” It’s helping people deal with fear… It’s what I call authority. Being able to have authority on stage – it’s not arrogance. In fact, authority comes from humility. I can’t teach authority but I can be a psychologist and help lead them to that place. I can show them what IS working and through that help them gain more confidence and authority a process that hopefully perpetuates itself. Hopefully they gain more and more and more and eventually this performer becomes a monster, in a good way.
It sounds like some of what you do is guiding people to their strengths rather than “step this way” or “walk that way”…
Tom Jackson:
That’s the misconception of what I do. That’s really only 10-15% of it. The re-arranging of the songs, the psychology we have been talking about and the vision for the shows are more important. One of the reasons artists do not succeed is because they have lost the vision for their shows. They are just out playing songs and without vision you end up nowhere. So it is much more than choreography.
Let’s talk about arrangement…
Tom Jackson:
That is actually the thing that I spend more time on than anything.
It makes sense that people would spend a great deal of time on arranging a song for radio but it doesn’t make sense that they wouldn’t spend time on arranging a song to go over well live.
Tom Jackson:
Yes, that’s exactly right.
I also wanted to talk to you about the difference between large and small shows. You help people prepare to play in front of big crowds, as that is the end game in your work, but can you explain what the difference would be in coaching someone to play in front of a large audience vs. a small audience? Is there a difference in stage behavior when playing in front of 40 people at a club vs. playing a big shed? Is the emotional connection you often speak about different in those two situations?
Tom Jackson:
Conceptually the answer is there is no difference. You still need to make an emotional connection, technically there are still things you can do while performing, songs do need to be re-arranged for live performance and you still need a vision. Yes I spend most of my consulting or producing is with acts that are signed but most of my teaching is for indies who are just coming up.
Honestly, I do very little different with someone like Taylor Swift. Sure I have more tools to play with, you know, most people don’t have a waterfall to fall under at the end of their set. That’s not the norm… but the concept is the same. The waterfall is the payoff. We may not have a waterfall but what payoff can we use to get the response in a club with 40 people that will get a response in that room. If you practice that… I have never seen an artist who developed these concepts not grow.
In watching you work you discussed the “cheese factor” it was great of you to point out that too much rehearsal and too much planning can backfire. When people don’t have someone like you to give them feedback and are trying to improve their live show- how do they know when they have gone too far? Is this something they have to test live?
Tom Jackson:
A lot of it has to do with testing things out live but when it comes to cheese factor there are two reasons you get cheese. One is not enough rehearsal in other words you’ve got something in your head but it isn’t in muscle memory. It looks like you are thinking about it and nobody wants to watch somebody think. Thinking about smiling or thinking about raising their arms or walking to a certain place. So in one way it’s not enough rehearsal. The other side is when there is too much rehearsal. Things can be so rehearsed that they become mechanical. It’s about finding that balance…
When watching you work recently I noticed that you went out of your way to coach the group to use the whole stage and you went as far as moving the monitors to give them more room. Explain the logic of this if you could
Tom Jackson:
I try to get rid of the barriers between me and the audience and not just the barriers. When I walk into a venue mostly everything is set up for the production people. The second thing it is set up for is the artist and the third thing that it is set up for is the audience and that’s backwards. It needs to be the audience first, the artist and then whoever is setting up the gear. I fight for every inch I can so I can have an emotional connection with the audience. I have played gigs where I have fought for an extra eight inches so I could get that much closer to the audience at the right time.
I’ll finish with this. What make a good hotel great? It’s the little things. It’s not flying beds. It’s fat towels. It’s a phone by the toilet. It’s a mint on the pillow. It’s all the little things. There is not much difference between a good hotel and a great hotel when it comes down to the basics – bed, TV, dresser, bathroom but – and this is for any artist reading this – who gets more money?
So that’s the difference between the Holiday Inn and the Ritz Carlton.
Tom Jackson:
Totally and we have this routine of taking whatever comes out way and not going the extra mile and not learning the things we are talking about to make that difference. Artists need to provide their audience with an experience to have an emotional connection, not something random.
You asked me earlier about mistakes artists make – every artist has experienced those moments on stage that are magical. For some reason the planets align, you can actually hear the monitors and everything is working and there is a love fest in the room. Here’s the problem- they don’t know why it happened. The next night you go out and do the exact same thing and it won’t work and the artist doesn’t know why. Without sounding arrogant, I know why.
Thanks again for your time Tom, this has been great.
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If you would like to find out more about Tom’s DVDs and / or get some guidance from him on your live show please visit www.onstagesuccess.com
I was able to ask my friend Howie Schnee the Co-Owner of Creative Entertainment Group and Co-Owner of Sullivan Hall and Sullivan Room in New York a few questions about what his job is like and what helps influence his decisions in booking bands into his clubs. I have known Howie since the early 90s when Sullivan Hall was called the Lion’s Den. He was in fact the first club owner to take a risk on a band I played with in college many years ago.
Howie has been responsible for building more acts on a local or regional level than any three people I know. The Lion’s Den (now Sullivan Hall) was one of the stepping stone clubs that most bands who wound up on Bonnaroo or the H.O.R.D.E. tour played before becoming big regional or national acts.
Howie's Venue- Sulivan Hall
How has the process of band /artist selection changed at the clubs in the last 10-15 years both for established artists and for the audition nights or slow nights when you are trying out new local talent. (online vs offline, more or less competition for slots etc…)
Howie:
It’s changed significantly. The immediacy of the web is mind-boggling. Almost all bands post samples of their music online. The old way was for bands to make initial contact over the phone and follow up with a press kit. By the time we received that press kit, details of that initial conversation were fuzzy at best. Besides music being immediate, there are many clues online that give a good idea as to whether or not a band has their act together so to speak such as having a robust website. Also, whether or not there’s some buzz and awareness about them like having a lot of Myspace plays, Facebook friends, Twitter followers for example. I’ll occasionally do random searches to see if there’s any interesting press about the act.
How do you prefer to be approached by an unknown artist trying to get a
show at the clubs you book? (referral, cold calling, how materials should be
presented and where i.e. Sonicbids, myspace etc)
Howie:
It’s really best for bands to include links for all of their sites they have EPKs on – MySpace, Sonicbids, Reverb Nation, etc. Just depending upon the buyer’s preference of site(s) they like to review bands on. A band should state the basics that talent buyers would like to know: where they’re from, what genre(s) they consider themselves to be in, when and where they’ve played the market before and how it went. If a band has friends, family or any roots to New York City that will insure a decent draw, that’s a good thing to mention. Also, anything noteworthy that may garner attention – album release show, TV or radio appearances, notable press, etc.
For a new band with few or no references that you can call to get a feel
for their following – how is the best way to approach you and how often so
as to be heard but not to annoy the hell out of you?
Howie:
References aren’t necessarily important, but professionalism and a good attitude go a long way. The other day I booked an out-of-town people who drew only 20 people to a show, on a Wednesday. Their manager followed up with a great email of thanks, but also noting how he felt strongly if we gave them a chance on a weekend night, he knew they could do 50 people at minimum. Then he followed that up with something to the effect of ‘I understand if you’d like to keep us to a week night and we’ll work hard to get to a weekend night eventually.’ His non-demanding positive attitude implored me to give him a weekend show despite the smaller draw. It also helped that their music was really good.
Describe the volume of submissions you get on a daily or weekly basis for
artist who want to play shows at Sullivan Hall and what percentage of those
actually get in the door to play?
Howie:
There are three of us that book the club so it’s hard to say exactly. I’d estimate we probably get around 20-25 submissions a day on average. Unless a band’s music or attitude is really terrible, we give most bands a shot. First time in though, it may be on a Monday or Tuesday.
What traits in a band member or manager make you feel like this is
someone who is serious about their business and makes you want to help them
build their following (both for you and the club)
Howie:
I alluded to it earlier. Positive attitude, non-demanding, carrying themselves professionally, strong work ethic all go a long way with me. That hard work ethic is essential if a band wants to take it to the next level. Nothing should be beneath them. I love walking out of a show and seeing a musician handing out hand bills or CDs or MP3 cards promoting their band. If I see that, and its 30 degrees and snowing, no matter what they sound like, I’ll book that band.
Describe some of the frustrations you have with they way musicians
approach you for a gig and things that people should avoid saying / doing.
Howie:
One of the most frustrating things is when you book an act, and discover afterwards they have multiple gigs lined up in town, and they’ve never bothered to mention it. I can understand a band wanting to get out there and play a lot (although I don’t feel that’s the right approach), but they should mention it during the booking process. I think acts should be more focused on the quality of shows they do versus quantity. Acts should be thinking in a reciprocal manor – not just ‘what can I get out of this?’
Let’s say your band can draw 50 people on a week night in New York. Your draw may be predominantly friends and fans at that point. Which is fine. Almost all bands start with friends and family. If your band starts booking 2 or more times per month, you’ll start to have diminishing returns. Now we book you after you’ve played a number of shows in town in a short period of time, and we put you on a good night on a good show, and almost no one comes out. You’ve benefited from the exposure but have offered nothing in return. You’ve spoiled your relationship with us. Bands should be thinking in reciprocal terms. Not only ‘what can we get out of this?’ but ‘what can we do for the club, or promoter, or the other bands on the bill for that matter?’
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Part two of my interview with Howie is available here. You can also check out his management and marketing company Creative Entertainment Group.
This is the second part of my interview with Howie Schnee of Creative Entertainment Group and Sullivan Hall. You can see the first portion of the interview here.
What is your feeling on the pay to play concept and why?
Howie:
I don’t have a problem with it as a talent buyer or a manager. Bands pay for advertisements, promotion and publicity. The bands that “get it” realize that playing in front of a good crowd of like-minded fans is the best exposure available. Better than ads or publicity. When we book a strong regional or national act it generally carries a lot of risk on our part. We hedge that risk with opening acts that we know are worth a good amount of tickets. When a band comes along that we’ve never heard of submits to open on one of those shows there’s not much incentive for us to do it, so if it’s a good fit musically we may suggest that they “guarantee” their draw by selling or buying some tickets to the show. I’d understand why some bands would object, but I’ve found that most smart, motivated younger emerging bands will get out there and hustle and sell some advance tickets for the great exposure opportunity.
What are some of the most effective promotions and / or campaigns you
have seen that have made for great shows?
Howie:
I could name a lot of great promotions and campaigns but I think the general themes an act should focus on are: not overplaying any market they’re building; align themselves with other like-minded bands; try to build their own little scene; making their fans feel a part of the show and the success of the show in some way- in any way. That and delivering a great experience once they actually get to the show.
I remember when I played your club as a kid that some bands from out of
town would bus in their fans for the show and nightlife in NYC. Does this
kind of thing still work for people looking to build New York as a secondary market?
Howie:
Bands from Jersey, CT, PA still do this. Here is an example of where we’d be amenable to putting a band on a really good exposure slot. The band obviously put a lot of work and money into organizing the bus trip, and they’ve guaranteed that they’d have at least 40 – 50 people coming to the show on their bus. Therefore, I think it can be a really smart way for a band to begin to build their audience in the city. As long as they play on the right show at the right time slot and gain some good exposure from the show, and they follow up the show in the not-too-distant future, it’s a worthy investment.
What are the absolute requirements for getting people out to a show in
your opinion? Is it promotions on Facebook and MySpace, or good old-fashioned flyering? What works in your opinion? Also, do you find that there is more impact from in person promotion than online promotion?
Howie:
All of the above. A band should be utilizing every tool at their disposal, and these days, there are so many free ways online and off for a band to use. I definitely think musicians, particularly outgoing ones, should be out there networking, meeting potential fans and other musicians like it’s their career. They should always be armed with music for those that seem interested – CDs, MP3 cards, flash drives. Bands shouldn’t be too concerned with giving away their music vs. selling it. The primary goal is to create fans in the long run, not make a few dollars in the short run.
There’s a band we booked a few years ago that are doing really well. Touring nationally. Their band is their full-time job. They’ve gotten themselves onto a lot of the major summer festivals out there. Anyway, a couple guys from the band were always out there pushing their band. At every show and event, handing out cards, giving people CDs, almost every night. Constantly making in-roads with the tastemakers. If it wasn’t for their hard work ethic, I don’t think they’d be anywhere close to the level they’re at now.
What would you say has separated the groups that have gone on to play bigger and bigger clubs and draw more and more people from the ones that never got an audience beyond their friends?
Howie:
Talent, drive and organization. You can get a sense of all three pretty quickly.
Knowing what you know now- say you got to start over as a musician and
retain this knowledge – what is your best advice or guideline for building a
following?
Howie:
It’s a mix of what I’ve been referencing in my answers to your questions. I’m a big proponent of a band working really hard on their live show. If the show is something special, and the band is hard working, and employs many of the tactics I’ve referred to, then the band has a great shot. In the 90s and the first 3 or 4 years of this decade, it was all about getting a record deal. That was what was on every band’s mind. These days, many bands’ goal is to find a good agent. The diminishing influence of the major label system has evened the playing field in many ways. I think these days, if a band doesn’t have a killer live show, and they plan on having a career, they should work tirelessly on developing the best live show possible.
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For more information on Howie Schnee and his company visit Creative Entertainment Group.
I just got back home from the New Music Seminar which was held today Tuesday, July 21st at one of the NYU buildings just south of Washington Square Park. The last time I had stood on that spot I was watching Elliot Smith perform at the building that preceded the one I stood in today- at the time it was called the Loeb Student center. It was also at the Loeb student center that I attended my first music conference as a musician trying to get my band signed or be a famous musician or whatever unrealistic albeit wonderful thoughts danced around my marijuana soaked head in those days. I guess it was fifteen years ago, and it was NYU’s “Independent Music Festival” 1994 that I tried to get my band noticed with a cassette of three of songs from my band. I got the only advice that ever really resonated with me as a musician that day, just six words: “play out as much as possible.”
The band broke up, I got an internship at a big record label that became an assistant job and so on until a few years later I became a jaded A&R executive who had spoken dozens on panels and had done my best to answer the same old questions that I had asked when on the other side of the panel.
It was wild to be back in the audience after having been on both sides of the stage and now somewhat removed from the emotional attachment of clearly belonging to either the artist or the executive side. (I still play for kicks and on the other side- I don’t quite consider myself an executive in the same way I did when I was a label guy).
I stayed for the keynote speech by Courtney Holt (President of MySpace Music), a panel called “Welcome to the New Music Business: Everything You Know is wrong” which featured Ian Rogers, Matthieu Drouin, Mark Ghuneim, Bruce Houghton & Jeff Price and a second panel called “Fan relationship management: Quit your day Job” which featured Tom Silverman, Steve Greenberg, Terry McBride, Ted Cohen, Tim Westergren & Emily White.
This is not an insult to the New Music Seminar- I am very glad I went but it’s funny how the company names had changed, most companies were now followed by “.com” or “music” rather than “records” and it is now thankfully much more acceptable to say “I don’t know” rather than slinging some incredible amount of bullshit. It does seem however, as if the music conference is much as it was fifteen years ago. There is a big disconnect between the panels and the audience. In my opinion people who come to panels desperately want very tangible solutions to very real problems about the basics of building their business rather than abstract conversations about the problems of artists who are several rungs higher than they are on the food chain. Granted I missed the “your live show and tour” panel which featured many successful artists who had done it themselves – I’m told it was great. It just never ceases to amaze me how the majority of music business professionals can’t articulate anything about the process by which an artist builds their business on their own so that they are even worth the attention of those same professionals.
I am off and running now but I am going to do my best to provide as much information as I can that worked for me building a local following when I was playing regular shows. Sure, I was armed with cassettes and only got my first email account in 1994 but some of the principals are still the same.
PS – We can all stop flogging the dead and decomposing horse that is the major record label – we get it already.
