Brian Zisk is an entrepreneur specializing in digital media, web broadcasting and distribution technologies and the founder of BuzzMakers, Inc., which produces the SF MusicTech Summit and the Future of Money & Technology Summit. Additionally, Brian is also the Co-Founder of the SF MusicTech Fund, Co-Founder and Technologies Director of the Future of Music Coalition and a Board Member and Strategic Advisor for a wide variety of tech companies and non-profits. Brian was previously a founder of The Green Witch Internet Radio which was sold to CMGI (NASDAQ: CMGI) in 2000. He is active in many computer-mediated forums, is quoted and published extensively in the media and frequently appears on panels and at industry events domestically and abroad.

I recently talked to Brian about watching the Digital Age unfold in the music business and how he helped develop the SF MusicTech Summit, the Future of Music Coalition and the SF MusicTech Fund. He also shared some observations about up-and-coming technologies and what artists can do to succeed in the rapidly changing industry.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks for spending some time talking to me, Brian.  How did you get into the music/technology field?

BZ:

I’ve always loved music and I’ve always loved technology, so it made sense. I went to NYU in the ‘80s, when everything was happening right there in my dorm. There was a lot of interesting stuff going on, with Def Jam being formed, and the Beastie Boys hanging around.

I worked on a bunch of different tech projects after I graduated, and in the late ‘90s, a friend who knew I was into both music and technology approached me and asked me to start a company with him. So, we started the Green Witch Internet Radio, which provided free radio with no ads and we were involved with developing most of the open source audio technologies at the time. Eventually, we were lucky enough to sell the Green Witch to a public company. Our aim when we started was to help musicians, but after we sold the company, it ended up changing quite a bit. Instead of helping musicians, it helped developers, who were building open-source applications to help folks distribute music over the Internet.

Since we were serving free music with no ads, we had a lot of members of the press and people at labels that incorrectly perceived us to be thieves. It was ironic to us, because we were buying half-a-million dollars of CDs every year and paying ASCAP, BMI and SESAC, and thus the songwriters and publishers. We were signed up to pay Sound Exchange, but they never arrived at a rate (so we could know how much to pay) while we were running the company. We were at an inflection point where it was up to the music industry to lead and move forward, and they were having a hard time distinguishing between who was a great customer, and who was a thief. It portended a descent into the chaos we’ve since seen in the industry.

Musician Coaching:

It sounds like the same old argument has been alive and well for quite some time.

BZ:

Indeed. It was always interesting to me when I’d go visit my friends that worked at labels, and they would talk about how it was because of them that artists were successful. And it certainly was to some extent. But there was sometimes almost a lack of respect for the artists, an assumption that, in general, the artists they worked on would be successful. In reality, a lot of it is the skill of the artist, and whether or not they can come up with something that will engage their fans. So, we’re all lucky that so much of the intermediary infrastructure is getting out of the way. And artists and fans are able to connect more personally. Sure, someone like Lady Gaga would not be what she was if not for Universal’s incredible push. But at the same time, it’s the fact that she was able to connect with fans on such a mass level that allowed her to become a success. So, whether you’re talking about the huge, mega acts, or the tiny folks who go on tour and make enough money to buy houses and support their families, the ones who find success will be the ones who are able to connect directly with their fans.

Musician Coaching:

I definitely want to hang onto that thread. But I want to get back to your story for a minute. How did you go from selling your music tech company to where you are today, a Founding Member of the Future of Music Coalition and running music and tech conferences?

BZ:

For me, it’s always been about looking at the whole ecosystem. I felt like I had a handle on everyone’s motivations, from the musicians, to the fans, to the technology folks and other entrepreneurs. So, we decided to start the Future of Music Coalition. There were a bunch of us who realized that many musicians didn’t see where the Internet was going. If you were just looking at it as, “Hey – someone made a copy of my song. We have to shut them down!” it was going to be a big problem. Because, as we all know, the Internet – even unrelated to music – is all about computers connecting and files being transferred and copies being made.

If you’ll recall, back in the late ‘90s/early 2000s, a lot of the conversation in the industry was about DRM and presenting digital music to people in ways that limited their ability to make copies. The only way to realistically do this from a technical perspective was to disallow people from playing their music whenever and wherever they wanted. It was clear that accomplishing this would be impossible. And the concept of shutting down the Internet was also not plausible. So, we started to try to figure out how we could continue to make sure all the different views had a place in the conversation and when we started the Future of Music Coalition in June of 2000, we started doing conferences. It seemed like a good way to not only raise our profile, but also to bring the artists, entrepreneurs, labels and everyone else in the industry together in Washington, D.C.

At first, people didn’t take it seriously. Then we got the support of people like Senator Orrin Hatch, the head of the U.S. Copyright Office and a bunch of rock stars. And all of a sudden, we were the organization where the highest quality music/technology information was being exchanged in D.C. In 2008, with the presidential election, no one in D.C. was really focusing on music and technology. They were just focused on getting their guy elected as president. Thus, the Future of Music Coalition team decided to take a year off from throwing the DC Summit. Due to the lack of a music/technology event to work on, I decided to throw a new event in San Francisco, the SF MusicTech Summit. The main difference is that while the Future of Music Coalition focuses on policy, and giving everyone a say in the discussion, the SF MusicTech Summit is much more around amplifying entrepreneurs, developers, musicians, etc. To me, helping to come up with forward thinking solution is much more interesting than listening to copyright extremists argue (with everyone else) about how it would be appropriate to break the net.

Musician Coaching:

My favorite story about that was the encoding that Sony came up with that cost them several-million dollars. And then there was a 15-year old kid with a Sharpie who drew a ring around the encoded information and undid $3 million-worth of protection.

BZ:

A lot of that expensive technology crippled the ability for people to play songs that they bought legally, in the manner that they wished. And due to these technological blocking efforts, often the songs people obtained illegally ended up be listenable to in more situations than the legally purchased ones. There was so much litigation around music. There was a lot of legal work that had to be done by the artists in order to ensure they got paid even close to properly.

We ran into a big issue with Green Witch Internet Radio in the ‘90s, which ultimately went away when our company was bought by a public company. At that time, we had funded this incredible developer from MIT, Chris “Monty” Montgomery who was working on this Open Source Audio Compression Ecosystem called Ogg Vorbis, parts of which had already been released. Then this new DRM was being introduced, and word got around that Ogg Vorbis (which works by removing the parts of the song which no one can hear) removed the parts of the song where they tried to hide the DRM. We got threatened with a lawsuit. So, we came under fire for purportedly developing a DRM-circumvention tool that existed before the technology that it removed came into existence! We basically publicly told them to shove it, but many folks don’t have the fortitude to stand up to these bullying threats.

I got totally fed up with the litigation, threats and everything else within the music industry except the music itself, and how artists and the fans connected. I wondered how we could all connect more appropriately. I’ve been in the music industry since the ‘90s and have gotten to know a lot of people. I know which people at the labels are trying to push everything forward and which are aiming to block progress.

What I came to realize before helping start the Future of Music Coalition was that there wasn’t enough light being shined on the incredible developers, music creators and music lovers – the ones who are building the new way. Due to these evolving changes, I felt it was time to start the SF MusicTech Summit. I was also getting a bit tired of going to the traditional music conferences, some of which were fabulous (though declining), but were prohibitively expensive to attend. Many times you would spend tens of thousands of dollars on travel and getting a booth and you would see the same music tech people you saw at home. And I started wondering why we were all paying so much money and going through so much hassle to see the one or two top guys from a Bay Area company, when if you had something in the Bay Area, you could participate and even be a top sponsor at a conference that was right in their backyard for significantly less money, and bring along many more folks from your team as well.

So, we decided to build the SF MusicTech Summit. We’re lucky that so many people have responded so enthusiastically, and that companies ranging from Universal to Google, from BMI to Bittorrent have all come and done so many great things at the conference. We really focus on moving the business forward as opposed to focusing on the mess the legacy industry is currently in. And that’s something that not only really resonates, but something that folks can really build on. Because, we can’t succeed if we’re trying to find a solution to a problem that can’t really be solved. The days where people could only listen to music if they bought physical product are gone.

Musician Coaching:

In my perspective, we’re over-saturated with artist tools. And we’re even getting to a point where I think we have enough companies that are providing metrics geared towards musicians. As someone who curates these kinds of tech companies, which companies are you seeing out there that everyone should be watching?

BZ:

That’s a very good question. A big problem has previously been the intermediaries between the musicians and their fans – record labels, etc. Now we move over to the emerging technologies, which are better connecting artists to their fans. And it’s kind of funny, because their business models have also revolved around getting between artists and their fans. It’s true that there are a lot of them.

What I’ve found interesting is that as new technologies emerge – and I’m not just talking about music-related technologies, but also technologies that have helped the Internet get better – the top folks who are already in the space will continue to exist and open up new opportunities for those to create technologies that are even better. For example, Rhapsody had the licenses and built a really interesting music service. But years later, Spotify emerged and didn’t have the roadblocks Rhapsody had, so it has been able to improve upon the model. And something else will leapfrog Spotify ten years down the road. I don’t think the issue is that there are too many products/services. The issue is, how do you grow into one of the top products/services and then keep your lead as you move forward?

We have some great people and technologies that will be highlighted at this year’s Summit, like Gumroad. They’re providing some exciting ways for artists to sell music directly on the Internet. When I met one of the founders, Sahil Lavingnia, a few months ago, I was really blown away. Now I’m hearing about other folks who are finally using it. It’s something that has real potential to change how musicians distribute music on the Internet. And Matt Urmy from Artist Growth is another one to watch. I have yet to see another quality online tool for musicians to manage their businesses. I’ve seen a lot of folks take a stab at it, but no one else has done it successfully.

Those are a couple that I think will really make an impact. So, the question is not, “Are there too many tools?” The question is, “If you’re trying to develop your own tool, how do you get it exactly right?” It’s going to be difficult to compete with some of the ones that are well funded and have huge pull within the music space unless you come up with something totally revolutionary. But, I’ve been looking at some of the companies that are coming to the Summit this year, and there are a bunch of really interesting ideas. There is a lot going on in that space of strengthening the musician/fan connection.

And if you look at what’s going on with video right now, you’ll see there are so many great options. You can make money on YouTube or go to a place like Stageit. Artists are making a lot of money, not by going on Stageit with the idea that they are going to beg for money, but because they already have a great fan base and are using it as a gating and connecting tool. If the fan pays for the experience, they can see an artist’s live show right in that moment and connect with that person in real time. In the past, everything was delayed. An artist would record an album, and it would be held up for eight months. Now, if you’re a live artist on stage and can connect with your fans, you can build a relationship and make money right in that moment. I’ve seen a bunch of really interesting video companies fairly recently, and there are a couple that I think will turn into billion-dollar companies like YouTube.

Musician Coaching:

Well, and part of the issue I have with all artist tools companies is that they are trying to force a creative product that defies being widgetized or mass marketed identically from artist to artist, product to product. And yet they’re also trying to create something that works without any hands on guidance. I just don’t think that’s realistic.

BZ:

I think you’re right.

Musician Coaching:

And of course, I have no issue with blending music and technology. But you have a very interesting perspective. What are the real questions that have been coming up in the music industry that technology is seeking to address? And what trends are you seeing emerge as a result that are interesting?

BZ:

Basically, again, a lot of the questions are surrounding the best ways to get artists and fans connecting directly. And companies like Gumroad and Stageit are both addressing this issue, because they are allowing artists to sell direct content as well as live performances to their fans in real time.

Musician Coaching:

And I interviewed Evan Lowenstein, the creator of Stageit. I think it’s a great idea too, because if you’re not offering your fans something experiential these days, you’re in trouble.

BZ:

Right. And on the analytics side, I also think Next Big Sound is taking that part of the industry to another level. Clearly, there are also things like BandPages and ReverbNation who are doing really interesting things. And I really hope Artist Growth works, because artists do need a way to run their entire business, not just their Web presence.

But I think you’re absolutely correct:  It’s hard for people not to build something generic when what artists need is more specialized and direct. I think it’s interesting that so many people, especially those over 30, are wondering what all the tools are that are popping up and are analyzing them, whereas younger people are just really “living” them. As soon as something new emerges, they’re on it. It’s almost not even about the technologies that affect the artists; if you’re an artist, it’s about how you navigate the technologies to determine what’s going to work.

And that’s part of why I think – and I know you’ve said you agree with me on this – artists should not go solely with these all-encompassing technologies. Because, then you don’t necessarily get the best tool that’s available to you for managing each particular area. And also, technology changes so quickly. If you’re busy, you can’t necessarily spend time trying out everything that’s out there. But I think it’s definitely worth trying out some of the tools I’ve mentioned in this conversation.

It’s interesting to me too that there is a geographical component to a lot of what is happening with technology. A lot of companies that are based on the East Coast are having the most impact on artists on the East Coast, and a lot of companies that are based on the West Coast are having the most impact on those on the West Coast. That’s another reason I really like conferences like the SF MusicTech Summit, because they get the most important folks from both coasts together.

Musician Coaching:

Let’s go back to the music side of music tech. I know in the past, you’ve seen a lot of musicians do quite well in the Digital Age. And of course, “quite well” in the music world is vastly different from “quite well” in the banking world. What have you learned from hearing artists discuss how they’re functioning in the digital landscape?

BZ:

This all goes back to the connection between the fan and the artist. When Ben Folds gets up and talks about how he connects to his fans, or Michael Tilson Thomas talks about building the YouTube Symphony Orchestra … or when Pomplamoose talks about using Stageit, or how they did so well with their covers on YouTube, you see that it’s really about being authentic and connecting. That’s what works for everybody these days. If you don’t connect with your fans, nothing will work.

David Lowery of Camper Van Beethoven/Cracker recently delivered his whole music manifesto in response to the intern at NPR’s discussion of her non-purchased music collection. It’s clear he has a good overview of digital music and technology, and when he was at his peak as an artist, he was very good at directly connecting the way of his band with the way of his fans.

To me, that is really what it’s about. If you’re an artist today, it’s about how you create music your fans can connect with. And then, it’s about how you connect with your fans through touring, on the Internet, through personal appearances. Everyone’s success these days is dependent upon how they manage their time, prioritize what’s important and avoid getting stuck on the things that aren’t important.

So, if you’re an artist, how do you manage your time? How do you ensure you have enough time for your creative process, your business process and your online process? Online marketing has really taken the place now of most of the traditional marketing techniques. It’s no longer about doing huge posters or buying the whole front window display at Tower Records. It’s about directly targeting the fans and then engaging them online in a way that is authentic and makes them genuinely want to support you.

To learn more about Brian Zisk and some of the work he does in the music industry, visit the Future of Music Coalition and the SF MusicTech Fund websites. The 2012 SF MusicTech Summit will take place on October 9.

Sean O’Connell is the founder of Creative Allies, a company that provides creative opportunities for designers and artists. He is also the founder of Music Allies, an agency that consults on strategy, marketing, publicity and radio promotions for music festivals and independent labels and works with the Hangout Music Festival, Camp Bisco, Bonnaroo Music and Arts Festival, Lights All Night and many others. Sean has done almost everything in the music industry, including artist management, concert promotion, label marketing, radio and booking. He has advised record labels owned by major indie artists including Ani DiFranco, Aimee Mann, Justin Timberlake and Jack Johnson. Last year Sean launched Creative Allies a platform that showcases designers and illustrators from around the world and provides opportunities for them to enter design contests to create art and merchandise for bands, films and festivals.

I got to talk to Sean recently about his history in the music business and how artists can seize opportunities that will help them maintain long-term careers. We also talked about how the music industry has evolved for indie and DIY artists in the past 15-20 years and how his companies Music Allies and Creative Allies work to provide opportunities to members of the creative community in the current industry climate.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks for taking some time to talk to me, Sean. How did you get into music?

SO:

When I was 18-years old, I went off to a small college in New York State. I’d grown up listening to Canadian radio stations under the pillow as I was going to sleep. I grew up in Buffalo, New York, and we’re only about an hour and a half away from Canada. I listened to CFNY, and it was probably one of the biggest things in my life. It introduced me to so much music that wasn’t getting poured down my throat. I was always a music nut, and the younger brother of someone who was even more of a music nut.

I went to a small college, and I felt very suffocated culturally. And there was a group of kids running a radio show on the information channel – local cable access. So, if you looked at messages about what was in the cafeteria or something, you’d hear these guys’ music on Channel 10.

So, then I met a mentor who taught me what it took to start a college radio station. And we raised $100,000 and started a station. I never went home for summers again. I just stayed and built studios. But I felt there still wasn’t enough stuff to do in town. So, I started a club on Wednesday nights called “The Freak Show,” which was at a sports bar. We completely made it over. And we packed 500 kids in at $5 per head every Wednesday.

I’ve always had an intuition for what other kids and other music fans gravitated towards. And I really never looked back. That time at school, being at a small college allowed me to get funding for local musicians and get a key to the recording studio at the college. Although I suck at engineering, I was the guy with the key, so we’d spend all night just making records for everybody. I eventually decided to go out on my own, move back to Buffalo and start a concert promotion company while managing some bands.

Musician Coaching:

Which bands did you manage?

SO:

I managed a band called Johny Vegas.  They didn’t go down the record label path, but we figured out how to sell 20,000 CDs each year and fill up clubs from Boston to Detroit. We’d built up a really good following. I quickly went from not knowing anyone in Buffalo – because I was only a kid the last time I’d been in Buffalo and didn’t have access to people at the clubs – to having success booking a lot of bands. Pretty quickly I was booking ten shows per month. And I got an opportunity booking a club called Nietzsche’s. When I was growing up, I had always wanted to get into that place. Then, all of a sudden I had two venues, the first and then a club called Network that Jim Kelly of the Buffalo Bills had opened. And then quickly grabbed a third, which was a 3,500-seat venue called Melody Fair. By the age of 24, I had an amazing business running three of the most important music venues in a city that had a huge music legacy.

I had my fingers in a lot of different aspects of the industry. But I was essentially a self-made guy. And I was managing two bands and running a record label for one, marketing for three venues, putting on lots of concerts with huge risk. Because I was only 24, I wasn’t really good at saving money. But I was good at spending it. It became a very risky business, and I started gravitating to a couple folks who were at Righteous Babe. At the time, Ani DiFranco was really taking off. And I really wanted to focus on something. Within my first year, we had Ani DiFranco a Top 10 hit. I was working with them on radio promotion and other marketing.

Musician Coaching:

Well, and clearly Ani DiFranco invented DIY. That was the first time I heard of someone saying, “I’m going to do this on my own.” And at the time, I was at a major label thinking, “What? I don’t understand.” What was it that drove her to be a DIY pioneer?

SO:

First and foremost, it has everything to do with her. There is a lot of great music out there. But there is very little great music that just connects. She would open her mouth and sing stuff that related to so many people. It was powerful and emotional. It’s 20-years later, and I’ve seen very little that’s like it. Her music was clearly her drive and why she’s on this planet. She was always an incredibly reserved person socially. But on stage, she really opened up and talked about what was going on in her life, how she perceived the world around her and barriers that were put up and the ones she thought could be easily broken down. It was powerful.

At the same time, there was a guy named Scott Fisher, who is still Ani’s manager and is amazing. He started as a carpenter, and had gone to law school in order to offer services to defend defendants on death row. So, they shared a lot of values. And he saw how things were starting up for her and came in and said, “I think this could be done better.” He was a very system-oriented guy. It was fantastic, and incredibly refreshing for me, because I had built a lot of my own systems. And we all just decided we didn’t care how the major labels were doing it. We were in Buffalo, New York, and we were having a great time. Clearly, no one was going to starve, because she was already selling 1,000 tickets.

Her success was also informed by it all being about her home town. All her packaging reflected that. Living Clip is a great example. That booklet has a certain sheen on the cover and there was certain kind of binding. Ani wanted the box a certain way. And it was really important to her that the visual identity and the quality of her recordings went all the way to the packaging. But we had a huge restriction, because we made a pledge that everything was going to be done in Buffalo. I think that particular album was done by four suppliers. And the volume of orders was so great that we were trucking things from the printing company, to the book-binding company, to the company that did the laminates for the CD, etc. It was a wild experience. And I don’t know what the exact numbers were, but it was a ridiculous cost per unit. No one at a major label would’ve ever done that. And we did it this way all because of these self-imposed values. We wanted to help our local economy. We wanted to not just be residents, but be a part of the community.

Musician Coaching:

And I think that ties back into what you’re currently doing. Ani DiFranco was just a bullet point in your experience list.

SO:

My experience with Ani DiFranco still informs everything I do today. And she’s actually one of the first investors in this new company I have. I remember at one point in my career going back and asking them how merch was doing at one point. And they said that one t-shirt they had was selling through the roof. And it was a t-shirt that just said, “Ani Fucking DiFranco.”
It was a shirt that was being worn all over Italy on her tour. One of the crew members bought it and brought it back, and they bootlegged the bootleg. And it became the #1 selling piece of merch. I’ve heard this story over and over. But that really sticks with me, because we have – whether we’re working with bands, brands or pop culture items – traditionally taken merch design from the top, down. It’s always been some illustrator or graphic designer who is determining the look and feel. And the truth is, it doesn’t necessarily translate. In all fairness to Ani, there are a lot of young women who are at these shows. And I will look at them and think, “Why is there a 40-year old guy in an office at RBR designing these t-shirts?” That was a very informing part of the business and in a lot of ways led me to what I do with Creative Allies.

Musician Coaching:

Where did you go after Righteous Babe?

SO:

I wanted to try some other things and get out of Buffalo for a while. I moved to Boston and did marketing and promotion for RYKODISC and was excited to work at a label that was so important to me when I was a kid and when I was building the college radio station. And that really expanded my network. I got to have a lot of success with older artists and different genres, and built a lot of confidence and started to believe I could make a big difference.

After that, RYKODISC was sold to a major corporation, and I started to feel like I was working for people who didn’t have the same values, were letting the idea of catalog fade away and treated people terribly. So, I decided to leave and go into independent radio promotion for a few months. I loved the guy I worked for, but hated the job and the idea that radio promotion and that world was 32 records a week going on a list, trying to get feedback from everybody, etc. There was really no creativity in it.

I was a marketing guy despite the fact I’d had a lot of success doing record promotion for some of the best indie labels in the ‘90s. But that was creative, because I didn’t have the resources and the budget. I had a voice and a direct line to the president of each company and to the artists themselves. As an indie record promoter, I was just a call jockey.

Musician Coaching:

In that position, you’re a telemarketer – no question.

SO:

Yeah. It was at that point that I moved back to Boston. And I joined a startup that was three guys who had just received a $3 million raise from Sonicblue to create products called “music tellers,” which were ATM-like devices to plug your Real MP3 player into and get music quickly. There were not a lot of ways to get music and not a lot of people with high bandwidth or a lot of digital music storage, and CD burners were not very sophisticated. This particular business was obviously short-sighted because obviously very shortly, technology went into overdrive. But the idea was to increase customer satisfaction and create a cloud music environment.

It was a great experience for me. And it was pretty amazing to watch $3 million get burned that quickly.

Musician Coaching:

And it’s better when it’s not your $3 million.

SO:

It was a great time, and I did learn a lot while I was there. Then RYKODISC separated from Palm, and they asked me to come back. But it just wasn’t the same. Around that time, it was really clear there was a huge opportunity to create a company to fill a huge gap for musicians and for music festivals, something I was incredibly excited about. I had really been this genre-free music fan, who actually had a lucrative career promoting fringe artists to radio. But I felt like I didn’t relate to radio stations’ programming and the concept of caging everyone into a box. And there was this European model emerging for music festivals where you could go to one and hear everything from blue grass to heavy metal. And I liked it all. And I saw that there were other people like me out there.

So, I started Music Allies. Our first clients were Ani DiFranco and Bonnaroo. Ten years later, we provide those resources and marketing expertise and strategic vision for a lot of independent music companies, but especially the ones that are owned by recording artists. During our ten years, we’ve launched labels for Martin Sexton, Ani DiFranco, Aimee Mann. I even helped Justin Timberlake launch Tenman Records. That all came out of referrals.

We don’t market Music Allies. We just do our job well and clients call us.  We don’t look at how other record labels are doing it. And in this troubling time and in a fragmented world, when recording artists can really monetize their recorded music, we really decided to stick with our small family of labels:  Jack Johnson’s Brushfire Records; Ani’s Righteous Babe Records and a handful of other artists. We’re not growing that part of our business or trying to solve the big questions on how to make a good middle class living if not become a superstar in this new music world. The big reason is that our work with brands and festivals has really blown up.

Musician Coaching:

From your perspective, what do you think aspiring artists should be doing to be a part of these festivals?

SO:

Be great and be honest with the connection that you’re making. If there ever were magic bullets, there are less of them now. You got to hustle and make your own destiny. There are fewer guys with ponytails in suits that are going to walk into your life and make you a star.

But my biggest piece of advice is team up with someone passionate to work with you and that doesn’t mean someone from the music business.  When you look at a lot of people I’ve worked with and look at who their managers are, they started as enthusiastic young people who didn’t have training in the music business, but just saw that they could really do something. Scot was that for Ani. David Sonenberg, who manages the Black Eyed Peas and others, was in his early 20s when Meatloaf came around, and that’s how he got started. I think that part is huge.

And that’s pretty consistent. Almost any time you’re doing something great and it’s really translating, don’t envision the superstar that comes around or the music mogul. Be really good at identifying the cache of fans that want to be more than fans. They don’t all have to be managers. They can also be social masters. I think that’s a first step.

To be candid, without an audience and without having built a following outside your hometown, I don’t think there is a place for you at these major music festivals. That’s not what their program is. Many of these bands that play festivals have done really well for themselves. But I would say half the people at the festivals are discovering that band for the first time. Festivals can be a good place for musical discovery, but festivals don’t have to do that with completely unknown bands. We’re all following our own path. Even with well-known artists, you may not have heard them before. If you’re walking into a tent with 5000 people that all love this band, you’re still walking in for the first time. That’s a really powerful thing.

Musician Coaching:

And which qualities do you think some of these career artists have that so many others don’t?

SO:

First of all, they have an incredible work ethic. G. Love is a great example. He’s been doing it for over 20 years. He has a great career and has had some of the biggest moments in his career just in the last few years. It hasn’t been because of hit songs. It’s been because he is genuinely concerned about connecting with people – and not just in music. If you do an interview with him, he’ll remember it. He loves meeting his fans and knows where they came from. He’s eager to get up in the morning and do work with radio stations or whatever the case may be. He really cares. I think that’s a big part:  Do you have that work ethic?

The other part is there isn’t one moment where it’s all going to happen and you’re going is going to sail from there. The artists I’ve worked with are on the road. For a lifetime. If you are an up and coming band, do you have what it takes to spend time a lifetime on the road?  That’s a hard question.  Being on the road when life happens is hard:  parents being ill; friends getting sick; having a family. You deal with all that, and you have to deal with it in a very different way when you are on tour. And I don’t think that ever stops.

To have a career, bands need to have that touring base because they’re not living off royalties. The ASCAP and BMI checks that are coming in are not that big. You have to ask yourself if you can visualize yourself in this place. And I think that question is a hard question and maybe even an unfair question to ask young artists, because I know I couldn’t visualize that stuff 15 years ago.

The other part is, you build a team around you, and you don’t sweat the small stuff, but you make sure you sweat the person who is in charge of the small stuff. You need to pay attention to details, whether about your packaging, your fan relationships, etc. All the clients I have really care about all those details.

Musician Coaching:

That’s a great segue to move into talking about this newest endeavor you have going on with your company. Why did you feel that there was a need to create this platform where artists and musicians could connect?

SO:

I’ve been a passionate advocate for musicians for a lifetime. My biggest joy is that I’ve been able to be involved during the creative process. I’ve been able to be at musicians’ homes when they’re making music or backstage, or in recording studios when albums are being made.

I’ve also always been a passionate advocate for all creative people, so the newest aspect of my business is really a natural extension. I’ve been involved in the process of visual arts for years. When I moved to the South and got out of entertainment hubs like New York, Boston, L.A. and San Francisco I realized that creative people didn’t have access to creative opportunities.  As I discussed many of the surreal and creative moments I’ve had in my career, they would always say, “Wow.” They weren’t struck by the celebrity of it all, they were attracted to the creative opportunity. Most creative people are stuck, at best, designing restaurant menus, retail advertisements and health insurance brochures. You realize how massive the illustrator and design community is and how many people have this talent. The number of people that went to college for it and then actually got a career out of it is a fraction. Those people who actually have a career out of it very rarely have the opportunity to collaborate and design for music or anything in pop culture.

I’ll hear people say, “If only I could design a poster for a festival,” or “If only I could design a shirt for Justin Timberlake” – whatever the case may be. And for me, there was that moment of “what if? This seems to be a great business.” The other part is that as much as I’ve been a passionate advocate for artists for a lifetime, my creative brush is marketing. I love marketing. It comes naturally to me, and I see angles that other people don’t. I think that’s something I’m good at and I enjoy. And it gets my mind going. It’s fantastic. I probably get a buzz off marketing similar to how a musician gets a buzz off writing a song. It’s a very creative process for me. So, in knowing there’s this opportunity to open up creative opportunities for designers, it became really obvious to me that marketing is so fragmented.

Musician Coaching:

You’ve now done marketing campaigns for a lot of big names. And I’ve always thought collaborative marketing started with Mountain Dew reaching out to designers 10-15 years ago and saying, “You should redesign our bottle.” Do you find that level of interaction within the creative community contributes to building a brand, and do you have any examples of that?

SO:

Absolutely. One, it’s usually under 40% and sometimes as little as 20% of submissions that come from fans of the brand or band. What we’ve spent the last year doing is building this amazing design community of over 20,000 illustrators. And they come to us for creative opportunity. They may have never heard of your band or your festival. But the biggest fulfillment for them and what enriches their soul is the creative outlet.

We know that not everyone who participates in Creative Allies is a designer, which is a pretty small subset of a band’s fan base anyway. They’re all connected in a very social world. All of a sudden you have 200 designs, and you have immediately 50,000 wall posts that go up all over the country showing those designs.

With some much music, getting awareness for a new release is hard. Doesn’t it blow you away sometimes when you think, “I had no idea Beastie Boys released a record.” Everybody is inundated with busy lives and they don’t have any idea which albums are coming out. And the way media cycles work, five, six or seven weeks go by after that record comes out, and it’s kind of gone. It’s a huge challenge for our business. One of reason for the demise of music sales is not hard drive access, streaming or copyright infringement. It’s that we all live in the moment. By the time this phone call is over and one day from now, you and I will have had so many moments.

Musician Coaching:

It was described best to me by Eric Garland of Big Champagne. He was asked after Michael Jackson’s death if there would ever be another, and he said, “It’s not that there will never be another triple or quadruple threat – dancer, singer, choreographer, musician. It’s just simply that when he was big, there were three channels where you could perceive somebody doing live music. And at any given point he was on two of them.” We’re just so impossibly fragmented now. It’s too hard to keep track of everything.

SO:

Exactly. So, you can row upstream, which I find a lot of musicians do, for example by saying they need to do a radio campaign because that’s what they grew up on. For us, the content itself creates a viral watershed moment. Images start getting shared.

Then of course, we’re adding ammunition for the bands themselves:  Facebook; Twitter feeds. Then you have the re-Tweets, the Facebook postings, etc. There is a very viral aspect to this.

Musician Coaching:

I interview people for my blog because I feel like the, “Hey, Ma. Look at me” concept is very real. You’re more likely to share my blog if you’re a part of it than if you aren’t, and I’m sure the same thing goes for artwork.

SO:

Exactly.

Musician Coaching:

Are you offering this service to developing musicians as well?

SO:

We’re about to. We curate all our contests. Right now, the value proposition is to participate in a  once-in-a-lifetime design opportunity. We haven’t opened it up to young bands. But we’ve done tons of testing. We can put an unknown band up there and get as many designs that as good quality as I will with any superstar.

That’s something we know for a fact. So far, the key to our success has been to not overload our designers. We don’t want to put too many opportunities up. We are slowly opening up that channel to younger bands. The first thing we did was a program with the John Lennon Educational Tour Bus and the Warped tour. We did a merchandising makeover programs for one of the bands that won the Warped tour contest. Designs came in from all over the world, and the band walked away with posters, t-shirts and a lot of other awesome products.

We did a similar opportunity with ReverbNation. We received 8,000 submissions per month. We hand-picked young bands to get designs. We know there’s demand there. We are going to launch a new version our band makeover program soon. Not only will bands get designs, but they will also get the ability to get an entire merchandising line, which means serious cash. And we’re getting an entire creative team around them.

The other thing we’re excited about is that around Christmas time, we’re going to launch a way to insert our platform into your Facebook page or your band’s website. We can create an opportunity for bands to come in at a really low cost and use the engine. They won’t get all the viral aspects of it. It will be for their fans, and some of our better designers will see those opportunities as a better value. And they can upgrade if they want more of the social networking. But a lot of young bands come to us because they need artwork. And the truth is, most of the bigger bands, festivals, etc. don’t just come to us because they need artwork. They come to us because it’s an amazing social marketing play.

To learn more about Sean O’Connell and the work he does, visit the Creative Allies website.

Vikki Walls  is the Executive Director of the Dewey Beach Music Conference & Festival, held annually in Dewey Beach, Delaware. A lifelong music fan, Vikki got her start in the music industry when she decided to start her own band t-shirt business and then started booking night clubs and managing bands. She eventually stepped out of her management role when she decided that she could help more bands succeed by setting up her own music conferences and festivals, where she could bring her industry contacts together with talented artists. Together with John Harris, she started the Millennium Music Conference in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania and then eventually started the Dewey Music Conference & Festival. She has been running and participating in music festivals and conferences for over 15 years. She has also worked as co-editor of the artist resource The Musician’s Atlas and was the music expert for eBay for five years.

Vikki spoke with me about her experience in the music industry, qualities she looks for when booking bands for her festival and how artists can use music festivals and conferences to forge relationships with industry decision makers and find opportunities to build their careers.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, Vikki. How did you get into the music business, and how did it lead you to run conferences and festivals?

VW:

I was a legal secretary. And I decided I didn’t want to do that anymore. I thought I wasn’t doing what I was really meant to do. I followed a band I really liked and noticed they had no t-shirts or merchandising. So, I started a t-shirt company and did t-shirts for them. Finally, I was making more money there than I was being a legal secretary, so I quit and decided to run the t-shirt company full time.

Then, I started booking night clubs. Then I started managing bands, and I did that for quite some time. After that, I decided to focus on my career. Managing bands is a lot of hard work, and you can only take a band so far. I worked really hard. So, I said, “I’m going to work as hard on my career as I did on theirs.” I decided I really just needed to step out of the management scene.

I started the Millennium Music conference in Harrisburg with John Harris. And that was because bands kept asking me to manage them and for advice and help. So, I thought, why not set up a little conference and bring in a bunch of my contacts for these artists to meet, as opposed to just handling one band at a time? I felt I could help more bands that way. I worked on getting tradeshow exhibitors, sponsors and the panelists. I worked on the bands and organized it with John. That all came about because I had a compilation CD of central PA bands that I put out for free. And the Crossroads Music conference in Memphis got a hold of it and really liked all the bands. They gave me my own showcase at Crossroads. And from that, we took six bands from central PA. One was a band that John managed called The Martini Brothers.

So, we all went down and did the conference and hung out. At that time, John was booking several night clubs and was a banquet manager at the Best Western in Harrisburg. So, he had the venue. And we got back, and he said, “We could probably do this.” And I said I knew enough people. That’s when we decided to join forces. I decided I would bring in my contacts, and he would organize the rest. We started from scratch, not really knowing what we were doing. But because I had been to South by Southwest a minimum of 15 years, and I had done the conference circuit. Paul Sacksman from Musician Magazine was always taking me around the country and putting me on panels about do it yourself for bands. So, we decided that information was what bands really wanted. And since I wasn’t managing anymore, I started that.

I was still working for The Musician’s Atlas. Paul left Musician Magazine and started working on that. I became co-editor and helped put it together with him and Martin Feldman. And one year, I was at South by Southwest. I met the people from eBay across the booth from me and struck up a really good relationship with them. A couple months later, they stole me and made me the music expert for eBay for five years. In the meantime, I was still doing Millennium because it was just a once-per-year thing, so I could do both.
Then, I was really good friends with the owner of the Bottle & Cork in Dewey Beach. The Bottle & Cork is also a venue where the bands I used to manage played. And I even took the owner to South by Southwest many times because he’s such a music fan. He called me right after I left eBay, when they got rid of me and their other independent consultants. I had actually called him to see if he would come to Millennium to speak. And he said, “I just bought the whole Rusty Rudder complex. This might be a really cool place to have a  conference. I know about your one in Harrisburg, which is well respected in the community.” So, I went down and met with him and looked at everything. And I said, “You’re right. Bands at the beach. It’s beautiful, and has a really cool vibe. Let’s try it.”

We did it there the first year, ten years ago. And after that, I realized it was a lot of work. And he had a lot more work for me to do and wanted me to do more here, including becoming the Talent Buyer for the Bottle & Cork. So, I left Millennium and figured I would concentrate on Dewey and use my contacts and do what I had to do to make Dewey the conference I wanted it to be. I just really liked everything about it. And the owner is wonderful. He will say, “I have all these restaurants. Let’s throw parties and feed the musicians.” He comes up with great ideas. As far as the organizing of it, that’s me selecting all the bands and getting the paperwork together, getting sponsors, and about a thousand other little details it takes to pull off even a small conference like ours, along with some very good friends from my Harrisburg days who have come to help me every year during the event and are now the core staff.

Musician Coaching:

Obviously with the conference, you’re looking for people who are talented, people who have the capability for commercial success and that are really running their careers as businesses. What advice would you for artists as someone that has run music conferences for many years?

VW:

We take submissions through Sonicbids and  ReverbNation. And my first advice to bands is to make sure their EPKs or whatever they send me in the mail are as up to date as possible. I can’t tell you how many times I go to an EPK, and a band will submit, but there will be no photograph, or there won’t be a bio, or they won’t list their gigs. Some of them, believe it or not, don’t even give me music.

I really read everything, study every band, listen to every band. I actually even try to Google a band if they don’t give me anything to go on. But that’s really a lot of work to ask me to do when I’m listening to so many bands. And it does get very frustrating. They need to keep up their site and make it as current as they can, list the clubs that book them and the festivals they’ve played, any kind of film or TV placement they’ve had, bands that they’ve opened for. These are key things that people like me are looking for. And, I feel that if the 9:30 Club is booking you, I should be booking you.

Musician Coaching:

Sure. And you want to know a band is active, which means a list of current show dates. This is better than if the last show you played was two months ago.

VW:

Yeah. And I want to see that you’re not just playing two clubs in your hometown and that you’re actually getting a fan base from other places. Because of where I’m at in my career, I have to bring in a lot of really good bands. And I think I’ve built up that reputation. People that come to my event and any festival with a good reputation know they’re going to see good bands. But the bands are not the draw – the festival is. And the locals will come because they know they will see really good bands and not be disappointed. That’s why I am really hard on who I select. And I only have 120-125 slots.

Musician Coaching:

If you are a band, does it help to have  your industry contacts’ help to get into festivals? Does knowing someone in the industry or connected to you or the festival improve their chances and speed up the process?

VW:

Definitely. The industry folks that have attended have such a good time, they pass it on to other people and tell other bands about it. And people from other festivals come to ours and will pass me information about bands they think would be good for the festival. And some of my agents from William Morris and other places will turn me on to baby bands that they’re trying to work on getting booked. They’ll get all those bands to submit. It makes for a nice cross section of all kinds of music from all different levels, from singer/songwriters, to bands from Canada. I get it from all ways. And the goal is really just to keep the quality really good.

Musician Coaching:

If you were a band coming into Dewey or Millenium what are some of the things you should be doing to promote yourself, get attention and build relationships before, during and after the festival? I can’t even compare it to South by Southwest, because that’s so huge it doesn’t work the same way.

VW:

Oh, yes. That’s so big. That’s one benefit of a smaller festival like ours. We’re small, and you see the same people all weekend. The reason I throw these VIP parties – and these are for all the bands – is to get everyone all under one roof so that everyone can network in a relaxed atmosphere. You’re having a few drinks and eating great food. And you’re in the same room with the producers, talent buyers, label executives and all the sponsors and tradeshow people. We’re all there together.

It’s the same thing I did as a manager when I would go to a music conference. I tell bands when they get accepted to try to come for the whole three days. There’s really no reason not to, because it’s free. We don’t even charge a badge fee to the bands that submit or the bands that play. Even the bands that don’t get selected get badges.

Musician Coaching:

That’s pretty common I think. If you get accepted, you get a badge for the event.

VW:

Probably now. But, I don’t know if it was that way ten years ago. I always remember having to buy badges for the bands I managed. But I’ve always offered them free to bands. And I am not sure if other events in the country give free badges to all bands that submit for consideration, regardless if they are selected to showcase or not.  This is our way of giving back to them to still give them a chance to schmooze, network, and participate in the panels, mentoring, etc.

Generally, if you’re coming to any festival, you should plan to go for all the days – in the case of my festival, all three days. And you go to the first VIP party, where everybody is schmoozing. You can tell the bands that work it, because they’re at every panel, they’re walking the floor of the tradeshow, they’re doing the mentoring sessions and the clinics. They get there at 10:30 in the morning, and they’re still doing business at 7 p.m. They really work it. They walk around and hand out literature. But, the biggest thing is, they’re taking every bit of advice and putting stuff in the goodie bags, etc.

At our conference, we give every band a half-page ad in the conference directory. So, as a band, you need to make your ad look really good, tell people where you’re playing and help promote yourselves. It’s like the band Halestorm from Harrisburg. They always knew how to work the conference. They would do everything. They would get up and do open mics, jump up on stage with other people, do the afternoon acoustic performance. They would even bring cookies, coffee and food to myself and staff in the mornings because they knew what our days were like running this event.

Musician Coaching:

And they were subsequently signed to Atlantic.

VW:

And a lot of it was attributable to their participation in a music festival. The producer found them at the festival, there were a couple showcases with industry people that came to, and ultimately Atlantic took them on.

As a band, if you want to make  the most out of going to a festival, you should attend all days of the conference, go to as many panels as you can instead of just showing up to do your 40-minute set. There are a lot of business-related things going on during the day that you need to participate in, including clinics, workshops, mentoring sessions, panels and tradeshow events. You also need to walk the street and hand out fliers.

Musician Coaching:

It seems obvious to those that have gone, but a lot of artists forget how important doing all these activities at festivals is.

VW:

I know. And we still get people that don’t understand the importance of doing the whole event. It’s the festival part they want to do. They don’t realize that the conference part is what is really going to make a difference for them with their careers.

Musician Coaching:

And I would imagine they need to research potential people they want to meet beforehand. There’s really no excuse now that we have LinkedIn and all the other social networking sites. When you find out someone’s participating, you use the information you can find online and find an excuse to reach out to them at the event. Have  you found this type of research and networking to be helpful?

VW:

Yes. Because we do list the panelists, and we do provide information about them before the event, and so do many of the other festivals. And musicians should take advantage of that. As a musician, you should also check out the trade show exhibitors. If you go to any conference, you will see all that information at your fingertips, so you can do your advance work before you even set foot in town.

Musician Coaching:

I found, especially in my experience as an A&R guy going to festivals, I would feel so assaulted by artists. Which guidelines would you give artists for approaching music industry gatekeepers at a festival?

VW:

I’ve been guilty of the same thing. When I first started managing bands, I would go to conferences and just after the panel, approach people saying, “Take my CD, take my bio.” And that’s your first natural instinct – to just keep passing stuff on. But I realized it was better to make the introduction, take a business card, make a connection and send the CD, bio and other materials later. Because, you know how many CDs they go home with.

I think bands learn not  to be that way that after a few times. They’re just so happy to be someplace where there are industry people. So, they’re very aggressive at it. Once you learn a better way to approach people – by not hounding them, things get better. Also, you shouldn’t do things like fax them or email them every day about your showcase. I used to see bands do that all the time.

Just be smart about it. Don’t get in people’s faces. And realize that everybody’s really busy. Your appearance, your show and the way you handle yourself will get the right person interested.

Musician Coaching:

Can you give some examples of people that were really successful at showing up at the conference and creating a buzz about their show?

VW:

A few come to mind. The band The Kin from Australia/New York City is one example. They played the festival numerous times. They did everything it took:  put stuff in the goodie bag; put a song on the compilation CD; walked around and did things right; did the acoustic daytime stage. They would go out in the middle of the audience and sing without instruments. They handled themselves very well and were very professional. You could tell they had worked it from the time they got there Thursday, to the time their show was Saturday, because everybody was there – not only the locals, but all the industry and tradeshow guys had to see this band, because they just fell in love with them.

Musician Coaching:

Obviously one of the major connectors at any small festival would be the person who plays your role – the person booking the talent. So, I would guess that somebody effectively working you and getting you as a supporter is a pretty big key to that as well.

VW:

Yes; because when I hear something I’m really into, I will tell people. I get really excited to see that band. And the one this year that struck me was a band from Pittsburgh called Lovebettie. She has star quality, an amazing image and she stayed in image the entire time. She was so friendly, and they just really worked it. And they were still selling CDs for 90 minutes after their set. That’s really amazing.

Musician Coaching:

Clearly, for anyone looking for empirical evidence of interest, there it is.

VW:

There are certain bands that just really know how to work it. Unfortunately, while I try to pay attention to as much as I can, there are so many things going on with trying to put together the weekend that I’m everywhere. I don’t really get a lot of time to spend with a lot of people. But I do see at night how it comes together and works. And I do hear from the industry that is there about who impressed them during the day that made them want to come see them at night.

For example, Paul Sacksman from Musician still comes every year. He’s an independent consultant now. He goes and sees every band he mentors. He doesn’t care where they are or what they’re doing. If he mentored them over the weekend, he goes to their gig. And that means a lot to those kids that he mentored. That shows that attending the mentoring events works. I don’t know if everybody does that, but I think it’s very cool that he does.

To learn more about Vikki Walls, visit the Dewey Beach Music Conference & Festival website.

This past week in music news was marked by major legal events as the European Commission (EC) finalized new copyright laws and Interscope Records came up against drug charges. Also, Beggars Group chairman Martin Mills talked about why he believes 360 deals are a bad idea for artists.

International Copyright Terms Extend to 70 Years

International artists are finally set to enjoy better copyright protection as of September 12 in Brussels, when the EC finalized their decision to extend copyright protection for performers to 70 years. This move finally brought international law closer to laws in the U.S., which protects musicians’ work for 95 years. This marks a huge win for the music industry, who lobbied extensively for years to convince the UK government in particular why copyright term extension was necessary for artists, coming up against resistance from many different officials throughout the 2000s.

Chief Executive of BPI Geoff Taylor said that even after reform seemed almost certain two weeks ago, the government could have still wavered and decided not to support the term extension. According to Taylor, the extension was perfectly timed and would help protect “an exceptional period of British musical genius.”

PPL director of government relations Dominic McGonigal, who has been involved in lobbying efforts in Westminster and Brussels for years and has seen the many ups and  downs of the copyright battle stated that this European legislative development along with many other recent changes in licensing that benefit artists shows governments worldwide are becoming more interested in supporting artists in every medium:  “My hope now is that they develop a better understanding of the economics of creative businesses.”

Interscope Records Under Fire for Cocaine Trafficking

Interscope Records – one of the largest labels worldwide, and home of U2 and Lady Gaga – has allegedly been used to support a drug-trafficking ring. According to U.S. federal prosecutors, some cases were stuffed with cocaine and vacuum-packed 20-dollar bills by James Rosemond, a New York City-based music-industry manager who goes by “Jimmy Henchmen,” runs Czar Entertainment and manages acts like rapper the Game, indicted in June.

The allegation was contained in a letter detailing evidence against Rosemond on September 12. His lawyer, Jefffrey Lichtman has not attempted to get bail for his client, who is denying all charges. Lichtman claims he has not yet seen the letter or any evidence, which, along with the 20-count indictment has been filed with the U.S. District Court in Brooklyn, N.Y.

The filing asserts that from January 2010 and June 2011, members of Rosemond’s organization used musical equipment road cases to transport cocaine from L.A. to a recording studio in New York. On return trips, the same cases were stuffed with hundreds of thousands of dollars in cash. While these cases were shipped by music gear transportation company Rockit Cargo, Ltd., this company is not thought to have known about containers’ illegal content. The letter also does not provide details about how members of Rosemond’s team were able to gain access to Interscope’s L.A. offices for drop-off and pick-up.

Thankfully for Interscope, a division of Universal Music Group (UMG), the incriminating letter does not suggest that any other employees of Interscope Records were aware of or involved in drug shipments. UMG has yet to comment.

Why 360 Deals Don’t Work for Today’s Artists

Martin Mills, Founder and Chairman of respected indie label the Beggars Group doesn’t think much of 360 deals. In a recent interview with CMU, he shared why he still won’t subject his artists to the terms of a 360 deal.

According to Mills, he and his team do weigh the pros and cons of 360 deals for his label and artists every year. But they always come to the conclusion that these types of deals benefit no one and are actually completely beyond the scope of especially emerging and indie artists (the exact people he strives to support with his label):  “They mean you pay more than you should for rights that aren’t within your skillset.”

He adds that 360 deals simply become a way to increase the rift between artists and their labels and distract from the purpose of a label, which is to help artists get their music out there:  “Most of the time you just lose more money, and with the ones that work you end up with a resentful artist because you’re getting part of their income they think you don’t deserve. If you’re delivering real value in your non-core areas that can be different, and we have a few little ventures brewing away on that front. Fundamentally, though, we’re good at releasing recorded music, and that’s what we do.”

For 35 years, the Beggars Group has been admired for its ability to grow without “selling out” and has established a reputation for building very positive relationships with its musicians, which have included artists like Adele, Cocteau Twins and the Cult. Last week, Mills was awarded the Industry Champion Award at the first-ever Artist & Manager Awards.

The two clips below are taken from an interview with renowned singer-songwriter, spoken-word artist, writer, comedian, publisher, actor and radio DJ Hentry Rollins.

Rollins shares  some insights about why the internet is such an essential tool for artists – at all stages in their careers – that want to develop close relationships with their fans and build a strong following:

New technologies grabbed a lot of headlines in the music industry in the past week, as the European music service Spotify finally landed in the U.S., Google+ finally began to roll out its features and Thievery Corporation teamed up with a new direct-to-fan music channel to promote their latest album.

Spotify Finally Hits the States

Available in Europe for the past three years, the wildly popular digital music streaming music Spotify is now finally available in the U.S., as of July 14. Major labels gave Spotify licenses in 2008, somewhat reluctantly, in exchange for revenue shares and  partial ownership. It quickly garnered the attention of over 10 million users in seven countries, with 15% of those being paying customers. The labels wouldn’t allow a U.S. launch until it agreed to limit the amount of users that could listen for free. Spotify provides three options for those that want to register to use it:  a free tier that requires users to submit a request to earn an invite; “Spotify Unlimited,” a service that costs $4.99 per month; “Spotify Premium,” which costs $9.99 per month.

What’s the difference between the three? The free option is supported through advertising, so while users are given access to over 15 million songs, social sharing features, playlist management functionality and sync-ability with mobile phones or iPods, they have to put up with ads and don’t get the offline capabilities offered with one of the paid versions.  “Spotify Unlimited” offers the same features as the free version, but takes away ads. The most expensive package, Spotify Premium, offers everything the other two offer plus better sound quality and  additional content, along with an offline listening mode and the ability to listen to music on all computers and virtually any mobile device.

An editorial piece in the L.A. Times analyzes what an “unlimited, free streaming” business model might mean for artists and others in the music industry:  “Although Spotify’s growth has been impressive in Europe, it has yet to report a profit. It’s still struggling to collect enough from advertisers to cover the costs of the free service, including the royalties it has agreed to pay the labels and songwriters.” Apparently some indie musicians have already complained that the service pays them under a penny per song played.  So far, Spotify has made its only revenue off getting people to sign up for its paid services.

Introducing Google+

If you are a Gmail user, you may have started seeing invites to use Google+ roll in starting about a month ago. Last week, Google CEO Larry Page announced the new Google+ social networking service had officially hit 10 million users.

Google+ was first introduced in late June, when it was offered to a handful of users, who could eventually invite those on their email lists. Many techies see it as a worthy opponent for Facebook. What sets it apart as a social networking site? The big difference is selectivity. It offers a “Circles” feature that acknowledges that people don’t always want to share everything with everyone within their list of contacts all the time. As the official Google Blog puts it, “Not all relationships are created equal.” Thus, “Circles” allows you to organize those in your social network into categories and select with whom you share each announcement or status message update.

Other features include “Sparks,” which delivers internet content relevant to your interests directly to you so you can easily strike up conversations within your network, “Hangouts,” which allows you to video chat with multiple people in your network and combines “the casual meetup with live multi-person video” and “Mobile,” which offers location-based technology to check in at locations and let people know where you are when you’re out and about.

While Google+ currently offers no specific business- or marketing-related functions, as it grows, it does provide an interesting potential opportunity for artists to connect to their fans personally and build that essential artist-to-fan relationship.

Thievery Corporation Engages Fans through New Online Music Channel

The Washington, D.C.-based electronica duo Thievery Corporation recently announced a partnership with the new direct-to-fan startup CHNL. The company’s management team includes industry veterans from Topspin Media, Revernation, Myspace Music and others.  Thievery Corporation will be promoting their Culture of Fear album, released June 28, exclusively through the service. The band is using a CHNL domain to provide its fans with 12 different music offerings, including free streaming, a subscription service, mp3s and videos, each represented by a different album cover. Their first offering is a download of the new album.

Thievery Corporation is following the lead of many artists who are starting to use new direct-to-fan marketing techniques – and even give away some music and products for free – in order to develop closer, constant relationships with their fans and build their following.

What Does “Indie” Mean?

An article on Billboard.Biz this week by Ed Christman finally answered a question that confuses a lot of us, whether we’re artists or other industry people:  What does it mean to be an independent label? In fact, I asked this very question this past week when I talked to Rich Bengloff from the American Association of Independent Music (A2IM). The simple answer I got from Rich was, it “means you own your record label.” So, a record label owned by an individual and not a major label is considered “independent.”

But according to Christman, the bigger answer to “What is indie?” is complicated and is getting even more complicated, because the overall landscape of the music industry has changed and continues to change rapidly:  “Over the last 15 years, things have only gotten even murkier. Majors used to just buy indies; nowadays, they also invest in indies; and they even do joint ventures with indies – sometimes on an album-by-album basis. Going the other way, majors like RCA have also put artists like Ray LaMontagne through RED. In fact, there are so many permutations of indie/major collaborations and secret deals concerning those permutations that it’s sometimes hard to tell what’s still indie and what’s a major.”

Essentially, if you’re confused, so is everyone. Still, at Billboard.biz, Christman lays out some of ways indie labels fit into the music industry by talking about how SoundScan counts indie artists in the charts and some details about the independent market share.

You should also check out my recent interview with George White, General Manager of Billboard Digital to learn about how Billboard is helping emerging and indie artists with its new Billboard Pro offering.

Jeff Levy is an entertainment attorney with 25 years of experience.  His firm, Ritholz, Levy, Sanders, Chidekel & Fields works extensively with clients in the music, film, television, video game, fashion and print industries. When he entered law school at the University of Southern California (USC), he knew he wanted to work in the music industry and in film. After working for a boutique music, film and television firm in Los Angeles, he found his way back to his hometown of New York City when he was offered a position at Arista Records, and then to one of the most powerful music and entertainment law firms in the world, Grubman, Indursky & Schindler. In 1995 he joined Atlantic Records, where he ultimately became the head of Business and Legal Affairs. He has been with Ritholz, Levy, Sanders, Chidekel & Fields since 2004.  The firm’s clients include Cee-Lo, Fergie, Maxwell, Lisa Loeb,  Nicole Miller, Rockstar Games, Pepsi, Comedy Central, IAC, Vector Management, Artists Den Entertainment, and Petra Nemcova.

I got to sit down with Jeff recently to talk about his experience, how he thinks technology will change the face of the music industry and some advice he has for artists that want to build careers in the current climate.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks for taking some time out to talk today, Jeff. I first met you when you were head of Business and Legal Affairs at Atlantic Records. How did you get into the music business?

JL:

I went to law school at USC, thinking I wanted to be either a lawyer either in the music business or in film. When I was in law school, I worked part-time jobs at a few entertainment-related firms. My first job out of law school was at Mitchell, Silverberg & Knupp which had a strong music practice. Although I couldn’t get into the music department, I got into the corporate department. I eventually become friendly with a  few people in the music department, and they heard about a job at a boutique music, film and TV firm in Beverly Hills called Cooper, Epstein & Hurewitz. I got an interview there just not even a year out of law school and got a job there. I got thrown into doing producer agreements, record deals, management deals, publishing. I did a little bit of film and TV also, but it was mostly music. That’s really how I got my start.

Musician Coaching:

And where did you go from there?

JL:

After about a year there, I was doing a deal with Arista Records in New York, and they were looking for a young lawyer and asked if I wanted to interview for the job. Because I was interested in the job but also a little homesick and thinking I’d like to move back to New York, I took the job interview and ended up accepting a job offer. I was there for about two and a half years when I received a job offer from Grubman, Indursky & Schindler. That firm represented mega-artists including Springsteen, Madonna, John Mellencamp, U2, Sting, etc. I was there for about five years and then went into Business Affairs.  I was at Atlantic Records for about five years. I ultimately went back into private practice where I’ve been ever since.

Musician Coaching:

You’ve been at this a long time, and certainly the digital landscape has changed everything. How would you say the playing field has changed with regards to what artists have to know about their rights? Are there certain things artists absolutely need to know now that distribution is not really a hurdle anymore?

JL:

I think it’s less of a rights issue (comparing recording contracts to when I first started to contracts now) than it is a threshold issue of whether or not you sign with a label, and if you do, which label you should sign with. I started practicing in the music area at the tail end of the era when a number of record companies would require you to sign a publishing deal with them when you signed a contract. They might also have insisted on a right of first refusal and a matching right on your merchandise. That was still going on in the late 1980s to some extent. That doesn’t really look too dissimilar to what they call 360 deals now – where the record companies are getting a piece of some additional income, including endorsements, touring and sponsorships. They don’t necessarily push for owning publishing rights, though some of them do take an income interest in an artists publishing. I think the real issue today is, what can a label provide an artist nowadays given that the costs of recording and distribution have gone down? And the majors are more hit driven than ever and don’t have the luxury of developing artists’ careers the way they did 20 years ago.

Musician Coaching:

You have a diverse practice now – everyone from Petra Nemcova to Rockstar Games. The last time I checked you also had some rock and urban artists as well.  Are you doing a high volume of record deals at this stage?

JL:

We still do a good number of record deals, but the number of record deals with major labels we do today is lower in frequency than it used to be, even compared to five years ago. We do represent artists, and some of them are high profile. Probably our most visible artist right now is Cee-Lo. But I would say that the nature of our music practice is such that we have more clients than ever that use music to sell other things. If you look at Rockstar games, music is very prevalent and an important component in their video games. We’ve represented Pepsi, and they use recording artists to help market their products.

Musician Coaching:

Are you seeing music as a product that will stand on its own several years from now?

JL:

Yes, I believe so, but the difficulties for the major labels continue.  Music is more popular than ever because of new technology. It’s more ubiquitous than ever because of mp3 players, the iPod, digital devices that let people connect to “the cloud”, etc. But if you think about it, go back to the time before there was the phonograph record. Music as a business was more or less just artists who performed live (and I don’t think that was much of a business). Then all of a sudden you were able to capture a performance on record and ultimately entities developed that controlled the manufacturing and distribution of albums, which was highly profitable (and incredibly profitable if you had a hit album). You have a disaggregation of all that now. People can pick and choose the songs, and the value of distribution has diminished greatly because of the digitization of music. To some extent, music has become more of a commodity and has been devalued unfortunately in a lot of ways.

Musician Coaching:

Your firm is very forward thinking in that a lot of your clients are technologists, and you have a very unique vantage point as someone that was at a very senior position at a major label at a time when music was exploding in a conventional way. Are you seeing anything out there that you think is viable? Do you think music on demand and non-ownership is the future?

JL:

The hope now in the industry, at least in my view, is to turn the commoditization of music into a positive thing where we create for the consumers on-demand platforms that provide them with multiple means to access their and all music (all perhaps for a monthly fee).  Labels now struggle with the fact that people are only paying 99 cents a song, and there is not a whole lot of profit in that. And I saw a survey a few years ago where young people felt on average that the cost should only be 25 cents per song. That’s really the challenge for the industry and for artists.  So perhaps you can get a larger number of people who are willing to pay for access and convenience on a monthly basis.

Again in my opinion, I think the trend will ultimately be selling music via subscription. But I also think – and this is kind of controversial, and when I’ve discussed this with people at major labels, they didn’t think it was viable or possible – you need the government to step in have the internet service providers and hardware manufacturers pay something to artists/labels.  Those entities have received a huge benefit from the music business to the loss of the creators of music. We’re in a capitalistic, free market society generally. But it becomes painful for me to see people at music companies that have passion for music get fired. And they’re not coming back. You have this tragedy of people trying to create value, but it’s kind of impossible because of the technology. And what happens to those labels? People generally don’t like major labels and they are under fire for having “not seen the future”, but they served a very important function. They had big research and development arms to sign artists and develop them, market and promote them.  Let’s put it this way, if the movie and television business became as devastated as the record labels, I think you’d see government stop in more strongly.

Musician Coaching:

Is there anything you feel modern artists should be hyper aware of, or anything you feel that is left out of their education?

JL:

In my view, artists are very special people, but one of the things I’ve noticed over the 25 years I’ve been doing this is that they’re very susceptible to getting involved with and seduced by people who will tell them exactly what they want to hear. They don’t necessarily do the right research on their manager, label, lawyer or agent. If you’re looking at working with a manager, agent or a lawyer or signing with a label, it’s not just about who they represent or who they’ve signed. That’s not necessarily relevant. You have to try to educate yourself on the business the best way you can and try to be with advisors that understand the business as a business in addition to having good relationships. You don’t want to enter into long-term agreements with people who are promising you the world, are great at manipulation and really can’t deliver. I think that’s an important point. The other issue is, when you have dreams of becoming a successful artist, what kind of shot do you give yourself? Planning for the future is important. There are great vicissitudes, great ups and downs in one’s career. If you make some money, are you going to be able to continue to make that money five, ten, 15, 20 years out? How do you plan for the inevitable decline in your popularity? Some artists are talented and lucky enough that they can keep going forever. But there are moments in time where certain artists strike a chord with the public and they never regain the same popularity they once had. As an artist, you have to build the right team around you to maximize your business and try to keep it as sustainable as possible.

And, this is the flip side to what I was saying about the internet that may be the best news for artists:  If they can build a core fan base, they can now link directly one-to-one with fans and on an independent basis sell records, merchandise and tickets to them. I think that’s more sustainable than it used to be. From that standpoint, they’re less at the mercy of big companies.

To read more about Jeff, his background and his continued work in the music industry, please visit the Ritholz, Levy, Sanders, Chidekel & Fields website.

Andrew Dreskin is the co-founder of Ticketfly, Inc., a web-based ticketing and marketing company that leverages social media to help venues and promoters manage live events. He also co-founded the Virgin Mobile Festival, a multi-day music and arts festival on the East coast of the U.S. that originated in England. A graduate of Tulane University, he got his start in college in the early 1990s where he promoted concerts at a variety of local clubs in New Orleans. He then went onto work as the executive vice president of Beserkley Records, an independent record label that put out albums by artists such as Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers and The Greg Kihn Band. He also helped start Energy Media, an early web design firm, and acted as co-founder, president and C.E.O. of TicketWeb, the first Internet-based event ticketing company, which was acquired by Ticketmaster in 2000. Before it was acquired by Knitting Factory Entertainment, Andrew was the largest outside shareholder in the Big Easy Concert House, a chain of concert venues in the Pacific Northwest.

I recently had the opportunity to talk to Andrew about the experience of being a big part of the technological revolution in the music industry, his views on the future of live events and web ticketing and what artists can do to sell more tickets and get more out of touring.

Musician Coaching:

Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me. How did you get involved in technology and the music industry?

AD:

I started promoting concerts in college in New Orleans at Tulane. I promoted my first concert at Tipitina’s in 1990. My first job in the record business was at Beserkley Records, which was responsible for Jonathan Richman and the Modern Lovers and The Greg Kihn Band. Matthew King Kaufman, the head of Beserkley had restarted the label, and I became the general manager.

In 1993 or 1994, I read an article on the cover of Billboard about one of the big record labels at the time, and I can’t remember whether it was Geffen or A&M, but they had just set up this thing called a website. And I got very excited about the idea of the digital transmission of music over the internet. The light bulb went off as I was reading that article, and I thought, “Someday, people will less frequently go to the record store, and will buy records and transmit them digitally.” I went out and bought a CD burner and an ISDN line. At that point it was sort of like, “Hurry up and wait.” I was obviously a little before my time there. Then, I went and met the guys at the Internet Underground Music Archive (IUMA). Anyone who was in music or around in the early days of the internet remembers IUMA, which was the developer of that website for Geffen or A&M. I met with those guys, and we ended up putting up a Beserkley website. I became very friendly with the guy that worked there, and we splintered off and set up a small web design shop to develop websites largely for music industry companies. We did some early work for the band Midnight Oil, and we streamed the Monsters of Rock tour and did some other stuff. Through that process, I met a guy named Rick Tyler, who was developing the world’s first web-based ticketing system. Rick and I became partners and founded TicketWeb in 1995. And ultimately, we sold the business to Ticketmaster in 2000.

Musician Coaching:

And what did you do after 2000?

AD:

The next big idea I had – or what I thought was a big idea – was to establish European-style music festivals on the East coast of the U.S. I moved back to New York from the Bay Area with my wife, who ended doing her residency at NYU. I, along with Seth Hurwitz, who is the operator of the Merriweather Post Pavilion and the owner of the 9:30 Club, and in conjunction with Virgin, brought the V Festival over from England. That’s been a whole lot of fun. We’ve done the Virgin Mobile Festival for five years, and this will be our sixth year, in Maryland.

In 2007, some of the old TicketWeb crew reached out to me and said, “Hey, we want to get the band back together. We think there’s a tremendous opportunity not being met in event ticketing, really centered around social marketing and a more integrated platform to create efficiencies and reduce costs.” So, we founded Ticketfly in 2008.

Musician Coaching:

And that was really to answer the fact that you didn’t feel like the 800-pound gorillas were active in social networking or fan activation?

AD:

That’s right. Social media was just burgeoning, and we didn’t feel like any of the big ticketing players were really acknowledging the opportunity sufficiently. They weren’t really harnessing social media on behalf of their clients. That was one of the major prongs of the thesis that caused us to found Ticketfly.

Musician Coaching:

And is it mostly a service for venue owners and promoters?

AD:

Yes. The service is primarily geared towards venues and promoters. But we have been dabbling with some artist ticketing here and there as well.

Musician Coaching:

From your vantage point, as a guy who has booked major festivals and worked with live music and ticketing for a very long time, what would you say artists are and aren’t doing to be successful at selling tickets? What would you say have you learned about this from running a ticketing company that has leveraged social media so well?

AD:

I would say frankly it’s a little complicated for artists, because the way ticketing industry is set up in the U.S. is that it is largely based on exclusive relationships between the venues and the promoters and the ticketing companies. There is a generally-accepted position that artists can sell 8% or 10% of their tickets at a venue. I think one very good way for an artist to create a connection with his/her fans and create interest in shows is to set up either fan club ticketing or tour ticketing and attempt to sell a portion of the house to fans.

Musician Coaching:

What are you going to be doing with the company going forward? Is it going to be opening it up to more venues or the longer-tail concept? Where do you see the ticketing industry going?

AD:

Our first order of business is to continue to concentrate on being the best provider of web-based tool for venues and promoters, who are our primary focus. Most of the ticketing players out there are just ticketing players, but we think of ourselves slightly differently. We view ourselves as an enterprise technology provider for a venue. What I mean by that is that in addition to ticketing technology, we provide website technology, social marketing technology, email marketing technology, iPhone technology and those types of services. Our primary focus is to continue to build out our suite of tools for our target market. In addition, we’re examining new verticals and new geographies. We’re absolutely mulling over the best way to address artist ticketing as well.

Musician Coaching:

Obviously there are more people online than when you first started TicketWeb and probably even since you started Ticketfly. Has the way people purchased tickets changed?

AD:

Yes. Our set of challenges when we started TicketWeb was very different from our set of challenges today. I tell this story a lot, and people are usually somewhere between hysterical laughing and total incredulity. The biggest challenge we had when we were founding TicketWeb was trying to convince our prospective clients that the internet was a viable medium. We had to try to convince venue owners and event promoters that people were going to transact business on the internet. It sounds far-fetched today, but at the time, we would hear things like, “No one is ever going to put their credit card in through the computer.” But the biggest change from then to today when it comes to event ticketing and live events is really social marketing. We didn’t have the same social tools available to us as ticket sellers as we have today back in the day at TicketWeb. Live events are inherently social. People go with other people. And we’re seeing that the social networks like Facebook, Twitter and FourSquare are great ways for people to connect around events. They’re also inexpensive and fun ways to market events for venues and promoters. If I had to pinpoint the biggest change between 1995 and 2011 in ticketing, I’d have to say it’s social marketing.

Musician Coaching:

Do you really find that people being exposed to other people’s choices to go or not go to a concert really influences a sale?

AD:

Absolutely. We’re finding that people’s social graphs are very strong indicators of ticket buying activity. Like I said, events are social, people generally don’t go alone. We’re seeing that when folks buy a ticket and share that activity with their social graph, the result will be increased transactions a lot of the time.

Musician Coaching:

The line that artists get over and over again is, “You have to tour, tour, tour.” And so few of them can find agents. As someone that has been in the live music business for a really long time, what is your vantage point? Is there room for growth in live events, or are we at a saturation point?

AD:

That’s a very complicated question. I think at the macro level what we’re seeing and feeling is that things are good, but not great. We’re not in the depths of 2008, and we’re also not in the delirious days of 1999. I think people also have a significant number of entertainment options these days, whether it’s movies, video games, the internet, TV or concerts. People are spending their money wisely and deferring purchases. They’re not waiting until the last minute like they were a couple years ago, but they’re definitely being a little more cautious and taking a little more time. We’re about to see a whole generation of performers head into retirement who historically have played stadiums and arenas. There is a movement towards smaller facilities. We’re also seeing an industry where one of the traditional sources of revenue – recorded music – is under some pressure, which is causing artists and their agents and managers to seek more live dates. I think in some ways that is leading to a little bit of saturation for sure. But I don’t think it’s yet at levels that are in the danger zone. We’re seeing the combination of a lot of factors, and the industry is trying to find its footing. I think in a few more years things will have normalized, and we’ll have a better idea of what this industry is going to look like moving forward.

To read more about Andrew Dreskin and learn about his various companies and pursuits, visit the Ticketfly and Virgin Mobile Festival websites.