This site is a blog for musicians and music industry people. It is a free educational resource and it is also the way I advertise my music consulting services. I am an entertainment professional with deep roots in the music industry. Throughout my music career I have been a major label A&R representative, a music supervisor, an artist manager, a reality show producer, a bass player and the head of a digital record label.
Jonathan Mann is a singer/songwriter who has been writing and recording one song per day since January 1, 2009 for his Song A Day project. For over 1,000 days, he has been posting a daily – usually humorous – song to YouTube that touches upon news and current events. A graduate of Bennington College in Vermont, Jonathan started playing guitar and writing songs when he was inspired by the music of Bob Dylan at age 12. Song A Day has earned him a great deal of press attention and brought him a number of interesting collaborative projects. He has appeared on The Rachel Maddow Show and has been commissioned to write songs for companies including Apple, TechCrunch, Dobly, ChaCha, Cisco, Microsoft, Groupon and AirBnB. Last spring, he used the crowdfunding site Kickstarter to raise $13,000, which funded his record Song A Day: The Album.
I got to talk to Jonathan about how he started in music, techniques that help him continue to be a prolific artist and how other musicians can leverage YouTube and other online and offline tools to get their music heard, find opportunities for collaboration and grow their fan bases.
Thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me, Jonathan. How did you become a musician?
JM:
I started playing guitar when I was 12, about 13-14 years ago. And, as happens when you’re just on the cusp of being a teenager, you get really intense about something. The thing I got really intense about was Bob Dylan. I had grown up listening to his music because my parents always listened to it. But, whatever happens at that point in a teenage mind, happened in mind. Something clicked, and it seems like overnight I started to really hear him for the first time. Basically, from that moment forward, I knew I wanted to write songs like him.
As soon as I started playing guitar, I started writing songs. And all those early songs sounded like a 12-year old trying to write songs like Bob Dylan, and not particularly well. But I really learned song structure from him. He has a way with words, to put it mildly. And his lyrics have this opaqueness; the meaning isn’t always obvious in some of my favorite songs of his. The words and the music together just create an overall feeling.
I continued to write songs and did a bunch of other things along the way. I went to college at a small liberal arts school in southern Vermont called Bennington College, which was a very hippy-dippy kind of place, and I really loved it. But I always found myself struggling with wanting to write more songs. People often describe what writer’s block feels like, and I realized that’s really what I was experiencing. What was so awful about writer’s block was that it wasn’t that I didn’t feel like creating and therefore wasn’t creating; it was that I had this creative impulse and wanted to be making music. But I would sit down and try to write, and I couldn’t. So, it wasn’t that the desire was there. The strong desire was actually what made it so awful when the songs just weren’t coming.
It’s all in hindsight of course that I recognize the problems. But, I started coming up with ways to force myself to write. One of the early techniques I came up with was in college. A friend of mine came up with a silly idea. We sat down one night with a little cassette recorder and had a couple beers. And we decided we were going to write 40 songs that night, and that each song would be only 40-seconds long. We had a stopwatch to time each other so we could make sure we didn’t go over the time limit. And we decided that wherever we were in the song after 40 seconds, we would stop and move onto the next song.
Did that help with writer’s block, and did anything real come out of those “40 in 40”?
JM:
Absolutely. Out of those 40 songs, what I noticed was that three or four of them ended up being the germs of really great songs. In fact, we fleshed out one or two of them, and they ended up being really big hits around campus – songs that people really responded to when we played them live. In my career so far with songwriting, the experience of that night has really stuck in my mind.
Also, in college, another friend of mine and I wrote a rock opera. Looking back, I can see clearly that writing this rock opera was really just a way to keep myself writing songs, because it was a way to not start from scratch. A lot of times you’re sitting down to write a song. And you might be starting with a feeling or something else, but mostly you’re just sitting there with a blank page.
And by that, do you mean that the rock opera gave you some kind of container or some constraints, so your choices became less infinite?
JM:
That’s exactly it. In this instance, we had written out a story together collaboratively about a race of aliens. The story had all these points and beats that needed songs. And so, it was the constraint of, “Here are the topics you need to write songs about. Now, go do it.” We both ended up writing about 20 songs apiece in a matter of weeks because we had this opera to focus on.
I did more of this rock opera writing in college. And it became really clear to me that all these exercises were simply constraints I was putting on myself in order to keep me writing songs and keep me happy. I realized I was happiest when I was creating a lot. And what better way to create a lot than to put the blinders on and get a bit myopic – focus in on something so songs would come more easily?
I can imagine these techniques have continued to help you. Are you still doing the Song A Day project?
JM:
Yes. And I’ve created well over 1,000 songs now. As of today, I’m at 1,063.
And you’ve literally written a song and put it up on YouTube every day for 1,063 days?
JM:
That’s right. And Song A Day came later. Looking back on all the different things I’ve done, it’s almost funny to me that I didn’t hit upon it sooner, because it seems so obvious now. To tell you the truth, I thought about writing a song a day before. I got a flyer in late 2008 for this project called Fun-a-Day. And Fun-a-Day is an art project on the Internet and in the real world, where artists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are invited to create a piece of art for every day of January. And people do all kinds of things, from sculpture, to painting, to poems. And they also do more outlandish things, like performance art and any kind of offbeat art you can imagine. This project has been going on for eight years for the entire month of January. And then, at the end of January, everyone gets together in different regions throughout the world: There’s a gathering in the Bay Area and one in Philadelphia, Berlin, etc. They have a big art show where everyone shows off their work in a gallery. Musicians can perform, and it’s really cool.
So, I got a flyer for this project, and it became the seed for Song A Day. At the end of January, I was having such a great time with it, that I didn’t see any reason to stop. I reached 100 songs, and felt I had to keep going. I realized that for me, it was the ideal way for me to keep myself creative.
And you mentioned a 70-20-10 rule: 70% of songs are so-so, 20% are not so hot and 10% are really good. Has that held true through the thousands of songs you’ve made?
JM:
I would say that’s definitely been the case. I think that holds true for most artists. It was something I noticed early on with the 40-second songs, the various rock opera projects and even the times I tried to put together albums. I would have a collection of songs, and that would be the ratio. Out of 10 songs, maybe one or two are stellar. Another few of them are filler. And the rest fall somewhere in between – not terrible and not great. And it seems that rule holds true for almost anything creative.
Of course there’s a caveat to that. It can also be really difficult to tell which songs fall into which category.
I was going to ask you that. There were probably songs that – had you not started the Song A Day project – would’ve never see the light of day. Have you been surprised by really positive reactions to songs you thought weren’t as good as others, or by lack of response to songs that you thought were really great?
JM:
I’ll answer that in two ways. In one way, I’ve definitely been really surprised. But one thing I’ve learned from doing this in public is, even a song that nine out of ten people dislike and that you yourself dislike as the creator, there’s going to be someone somewhere that responds to it really positively. I think that’s just human nature and shows the range of people’s tastes.
But, at the same time, I’m so wrapped up in it, and the songs go by so quickly. When I’m working on a song, it’s very rare that I think, “This is a crappy song.” As a songwriter, if you have that feeling, you go in another direction to make the song less crappy. So, I’d say that while you’re working on the thing, you’re never thinking about how bad it is.
Well, in my experience – and mind you, I’ve written considerably fewer songs than you – I would lay something down and revisit it the next day and think, “Boy, what was I thinking?” But you really don’t have the time to reflect on that, because it’s up and live.
JM:
Yeah. And I’ve had that experience and the reverse of that experience. I’ve laid something down and liked it and then the next day, not liked it. And I’ve also laid something down and really disliked it, then the next day have realized I’m really excited about it.
The other thing that’s really struck me with Song A Day is all the songs I’ve written that would’ve not seen the light of day had I not been doing this project. It’s a weird idea to me that I have all these songs that exist inside of me. And once or twice a week, I’ll write something that just comes out, and I think, “Where did that come from? I’m so glad I’m doing Song A Day, because now I have this song that I’m really into.” It only strengthens my resolve to keep doing it. If I stop, it just means there will be more songs I’ll never write.
I’m sure you have a lot of fellow musician friends. One of the most common complaints I get from musicians when I suggest that they create music, video and content as regularly as possible around their music is, people want everything to be really polished and clean. I can’t imagine in turning out the volume you have that all the performances have been completely tight. Still, you’ve had success with this project and feel good about it. Have you found that when you’re constantly generating material, people forget the songs that are not good and gravitate towards the ones that are? How has your experience been different from the experience of so many of these other musicians?
JM:
It’s hard for me to say. On the one hand, I would definitely say that I think material that is polished is great. But I think the idea that everything you put out needs to be polished is a little bit overrated. Like you said, people will ignore things they don’t like, and gravitate towards things they do like.
I’ve had a lot of success with Song A Day, namely through people finding me and asking me to come on TV shows or come play conferences. They’ve wanted to collaborate on projects with me just because of the fact that I’m out there all the time. But on the other hand, my overall audience has remained relatively small. And I think part of that may be due to over saturation.
Well, and it seems like it’s hard to say. Most people struggle to get an audience at all. The average musician out there has friends, family and occasionally a really keen supporter or two who brings out his/her friends and extended friends every once in a while. But most people don’t have an audience. The vast majority of musicians out there are aspiring and don’t have a real fan base. But you do.
JM:
That’s definitely very true. So, I guess if you put it into that perspective, what I’ve done and continue to do definitely works. I like to think that I’m on the opposite end of the spectrum from the end most musicians and artists are on. I don’t really have any perfectionism in me. In fact, I almost have none. I would rather do something quickly and get it to be as good as I can get it in that moment and put it out and see what happens rather than spend a lot of time on something. I tend to get tired of a song really quickly when I’m just focusing on it the way I feel a lot of my peers do. Perfectionism has so many strengths to it. But I also think my way has strengths as well. I think a perfectionist can learn from the way I create in the same way that I learn when I collaborate with friends who spend a lot more time on a song. I love that type of collaboration, because it is such a novelty for me and so different.
You started songwriting and getting into music very young, so you’ve been at this a while. Are there some things you wish you’d known going in about online marketing, social media, creating music in general? What have you learned that you feel has made your process more efficient?
JM:
That’s an interesting question. And it’s almost difficult for me to answer, because I’m not sure I really have figured that game out completely.
Well, and I don’t know that anyone has it figured out. It’s all still the Wild West. But were there times you’ve looked back on where you were spinning your wheels, and you’ve thought, “Wow. If I met myself when I was 18, I’d tell myself …”?
JM:
To tell you the truth, I sometimes wish I had started doing the Song A Day earlier, and that I had hit on this process. On the other hand, things work out the way they do for a reason.
One thing I still think I could do better on, and I wish I were more adept at is simply collaborating. I think collaboration is key for musicians. And it’s a whole different ballgame than working by yourself. I’m definitely open to it. I have a lot of musician friends, and whenever we get together and collaborate, it’s always wonderful.
One of the biggest things I’ve observed regarding YouTube is that you have to collaborate. If you want to grow your audience, you find people that you like and that you respect from YouTube, and you reach out to them with a good idea, then collaborate with them and make something. That way, your audience gets to see them, and their audience gets to see you. I started making online video in 2005 right when YouTube started. And had I known that collaboration was one of the biggest tricks on that platform, maybe I would’ve done more of that.
Like you said, it’s still very much the Wild West. And I feel like my particular project is a long game.
I think any projects that are worth having are long term.
JM:
Right. And who knows what new things will come up?
Ever since you and I first connected, I’ve wanted to ask you a question about time management. How do you manage to have a normal life and fit in doing a song and a video a day? I’m sure you’ve had to juggle things around. I know a lot of musicians who would love to be able to do a project like this. Do you have any advice for them about making time?
JM:
It’s definitely a challenge. I’ve been lucky. When I started the project, I was essentially unemployed. I had a small bit of freelance work. As I’ve been continuing the project, the freelance work has become denser. But the nature of freelancing gives me a lot of time to do this.
With any job I’ve had, I’ve always experienced in-between times. And often, the time spent getting to work and coming back from work – all other times like those – I’ve used for idea generation. Any time I’ve been working on songs, a lot of really great ideas have come out of those in-between times. And there are ways to utilize that time to maximum efficiency.
Otherwise, it’s really just about commitment. You just have to commit to doing it. I would also encourage people to do a song a day, even if just for the period of time they do Fun-a-Day. January is coming up. Just challenge yourself to do it for a month. Once you commit yourself to it, it just becomes part of your life. That’s what happened to me. My friends and family know that’s just what I do. So, a lot of times I’ll be around them and say, “Okay, I haven’t done my song yet, and it’s 9 p.m. I have to go do this.” Often, that’s all finding the time is. So often, all I have time to do is sit down with a guitar for 20 minutes and write down the first thing that comes to me.
And sometimes the songs that come out of even that little time are great.
JM:
Exactly. What you do when you do that is set yourself up to make great music. If you do that every day, just by sheer probability, something you make is going to be great.
To learn more about Jonathan and his music (or even to talk to him about collaboration), please visit the official Jonathan Mann website. If you want to check out some of the inspiration behind Jonathan’s Song A Day or get involved in a similar project yourself, take a look at Artclash Collective’s Fun-a-Day project.
Below is a video introduction to Jonathan and Song A Day:
Gino Sesto is the Founder and Owner of MULTI media, an independent media buying company based in L.A. With 20 years’ experience working in the music advertising space, he started out at Sony Music working on marketing and co-op with record merchandisers. After working at several agencies, Gino decided to start his own company as a response to the changing music industry landscape, to give artists with limited budgets in need of high-level advertising services more comprehensive options. MULTI media’s clients include Atlantic, Warner Bros., E1 Music, RED Distribution, Victory Records, Strange Music and many others.
I caught up with Gino recently to talk about the experience of growing his own media company, some details every artist needs to know about online advertising and how bands just starting out can create compelling ads that will turn more people onto their music and build their fan base.
How did you get into the music business?
GS:
I’ve been in the music advertising space for about 20 years. I started in the early ‘90s working at RED (Relativity Entertainment Distribution) as a marketing manager doing co-op ads on the West coast with the retailers that existed at the time – Tower, Valley, etc.
Then I left there and worked in the print business for a year. I sold an entertainment weekly in L.A. called the New Times, which got bought out by the Village Voice.
From there, I went to an agency called the Gary Group. And I worked there for eight years, from 2000-2008. It’s a media-buying agency that specializes in the music space. I had a ton of clients and did pretty much a boatload of the work there.
And I started a website called RateMyCop in the spring of 2008. It was a pet project. I’d never created a website before. And I have no need to do it again. But it was a hobby, because I got a ticket, and it pissed me off so much that I decided to create a website to allow people to criticize cops (which I think is really a tradition in this country). That got a lot of fanfare with the press. I was on every local affiliate in L.A. I was on the CBS Early Show, Fox News, all those places. It was my 15 minutes. And it lasted about a week and a half. I was on the cover of the L.A. Daily News, The New York Times and in Playboy, Wired. We actually launched the website with almost 200,000 names of cops, which is obviously enough to get press by itself.
What happened was that got so much press that my employer at the time didn’t think it was very funny, and they let me go in April of 2008. So then, I did a couple odd jobs in the online space doing remnant advertising for people and working the daisy chain of remnant, which is a whole industry. Many companies are built off just that. And I also started freelancing for a company called Marathon Media. It was started by EMI back in the day as a boutique advertising agency that dealt with the music space. They had been around for a long time, and I was basically working to bring new clients on for them. I was with them for about three months, and then unfortunately, they decided to shut their doors. At that point, I decided to start my own company, MULTI media in April of 2009.
And basically, with MULTI media, online advertising is your bread and butter. From what I know, you do everything from Google AdWords to promoted ads and pre-roll video ads on YouTube, Facebook advertising, etc.
GS:
Yes. Eighty percent of the online work we’re doing is a mixture of Facebook, Google and YouTube. It’s the lowest common denominator. And they’re two completely different beasts. Beyond that, we do display advertising, for sure. But if you’re not doing Facebook, Google and YouTube, you shouldn’t be at the point where you’re going beyond that.
Let’s start there. Artists with an extensive budget, less time and who are not interested in doing this work themselves obviously should be hiring you to do work for them. But if you were to give advice to someone with a limited budget based on what have you learned about Facebook, YouTube and Google advertising, what should every musician should know?
GS:
That’s a great question. The simple answer is that all are very simple to implement, which is good. But it’s also bad in the sense that a lot of people do it and do it wrong, because they just put it out there and then don’t know the best practices.
I’ll give you an example that isn’t 100% music related. I have a friend that has a messenger service in L.A. He was spending $2,500 per month just on Google Search. He had one ad, and that was it. I said, “You could not be more wrong to put all your eggs into one basket.” And he’s a smart businessman, and a multimillionaire. But that’s just what he did: One ad. And that’s what lot of these little bands do. They’ll put one picture of themselves up with some copy, and that’s it. They don’t test different variances or do A/B testing, as it’s called. They’ll say, “This is our band photo, and we’re going to go with it. We’ll see how it does.”
When you run a campaign, are you A/B’ing all the components – different text, different photos, etc. – so you can see which variable is making the most impact?
GS:
Yes. The same concept applies to Google Search, because you have three lines of text in that format: the headline; two additional lines of text after that. Those should be A/B tested as well. You don’t know which picture is going to do the best – and I don’t pretend to know either – until you test it. Sometimes we’re given a limited bag of assets, and we have to go out on the web and find them. But bands should be testing their press photo, their logo and things like that – as many versions of their imaging as they can test.
And for those people that don’t know, basically, these systems – Facebook, Google ads, etc., all of which I’ve used – are flexible enough so that you don’t set a campaign for several weeks. You can get an hour’s worth of feedback and change on the fly. It’s about seeing which ads get served, because those are usually the most effective. Is this correct?
GS:
Sure. And it’s also a function of how long the campaign is and how big the budget is. If it’s a really big budget, and a short flight, you’re going to have a sense of that, because you’re going to spend a lot of money really quickly. You’ll know right away from the sample size which part is working and which part isn’t working. But when you’re working with a small budget over a long period of time, you’re going to have to give it some time before the sample size is accurate enough.
The beauty of it also is that you can really “set it and forget it” if you want to. Because what happens is, let’s say you have four different photos on Facebook that you’ve posted, and you’ve labeled them differently. Facebook is going to serve the one that’s doing the best. By doing the best, I mean getting the most clicks per impression. So, logically, the one that sucks will stop serving, because Facebook wants to make money, and they only get paid when they get a click.
Do you advocate using CPC (Cost per Click) over CPM (Cost per Thousand)?
GS:
It doesn’t make a difference. And that’s the funniest thing: There is absolutely no difference in algorithms or anything else. You’ll only sometimes see a difference on certain websites. For example, if you’re doing a Google Display Network campaign, some websites will only allow CPM ads to be served.
So for your standard, keyword-based searches, you don’t find that the expenditure is much different either way?
GS:
It’s the same thing. Google and Facebook are looking not at the CPC, but the CPM. They’re computing how much money they’re making each time they’re sending something out. The algorithm is really looking at the CPM.
It’s just really interesting that they give you the option to choose.
GS:
I don’t know why they do that. We tend to do the CPC bidding. But at the end of the day, it’s the same exact thing. We could bid on a CPM basis if we wanted to. But, the lower the CPC, the higher the CPM. And when the CPC goes up, the CPM will go down. So, Google and Facebook are looking at the CPM and thinking, “How many times am I serving this ad, and how much money am I making?” That’s how that relationship works.
The only time we’ll ever look at a CPM deal on Google is if it’s a Display ad that we’re serving across their network. Some sites will have the option to omit CPC ads, because they want to get paid no matter what. Then we’ll do a CPM deal as well. On wide-reaching campaigns, sometimes we’ll work with both CPM and CPC just so we can get on sites that omit CPC campaigns. As a website owner I know these details, and because of working in the remnant ad business, I know how the whole system works.
So, if someone came to you and said, “I have $500, and I want to spend it on online advertising,” where would you point the person?
GS:
Facebook. I wouldn’t do Google Search, because let’s say I’m a local band in New York. Who is going to search “cool, hip, local band, New York”? You might not want to have anything to do with someone who would search for that. Also, when local bands are starting out, they get discovered by word of mouth.
And you probably can’t really use other people as a comparison, right? For example, “Do you like Pink Floyd? Because we sound like Pink Floyd.” Though, you might be able to do that on Facebook, because your target audience has already volunteered that they like that band.
GS:
Right. It works on Facebook. If I were a local band and trying to broaden my audience, the only time I would use Google Search would be because I am playing with a band in New York and want to attract people to my show that like the other band: “Hey! We’re playing in New York with this band. Come see us.”
But if I’m in Band X and have a really distinct name, I’m not going to buy the keywords “Band X,” because my page is already going to be the first thing that pops up. For example, if I’m 311, I’m not going to buy that, because it’s such a distinct name. If I type in “311,” MySpace will pop up, Wikipedia will pop up, Facebook will pop up and my webpage will pop up. Why would I buy that keyword?
But if you’re not 311, and your band is the “John Smith Group,” that might be a different story.
GS:
Honestly, the John Smith Group will probably pop up first too, because it’s so distinct. If you have a distinct name, there’s no reason to buy Google Search. But if I were in that band, I would buy Facebook, because I’m trying to attract people based off their interests. If I sound like a certain band, I can advertise to people who have said they like that band.
I’m a customer who came to you with a campaign and said, “I kind of did this, and kind of did that.” Are there some common ad campaign mistakes you find yourself fixing on a regular basis for clients?
GS:
There are a couple common mistakes. One of them is that people will just run with one ad; that’s one of the biggest ones. Another is that when someone is running an ad on Facebook and targeting a bunch of people’s “likes” and interests, that person will put all the likes and interests in one ad. So, the ad will list 10 bands on one ads. But if you do that, you’re not going to see which ones re resonating, because it’s all in one big bucket.
Well, and I imagine you wouldn’t be able to tweak the creative aimed towards people who would have the name recognition. So, in other words, if I ran an ad that was listing Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin and Guns n’ Roses along with 10 other bands, you couldn’t have the creative say one or the other. You’d have to say you like all, which of course wouldn’t fit.
GS:
And historically, the most successful campaigns are ones that are targeted. For example, we did the Lou Reed and Metallica record campaign. The creative for that was, “Hey, you like Metallica … Hey, you like Band X …” and it was targeted pretty well to people who would like that record.
A lot of people are trying to get “likes.” Should they have custom landing pages or give away free downloads? What are some compelling calls to action?
GS:
I think the best ones right now are customized Facebook pages where people can sample the music. Those are the easiest and most effective calls to action for bands to have. And then, having free downloads works really well.
And the Facebook environment is preferable?
GS:
Yes. And Facebook now allows HTML. So, you can put the HTML directly into the Facebook page, and you’re off to the races. That’s the first thing I would recommend for any band just starting out. Because you get people to sample the music, and then you have them.
What’s your opinion on lock-in pages – Facebook pages where you have to “like” the page in order to experience the content?
GS:
I think for a baby band that is trying to build a fan base, it wouldn’t really make sense. It might work for a more established band. But a potential fan of a relatively unknown band would probably be turned off by having to “like” that band in order to learn something about it.
You were telling me something interesting the other day on behalf of a client: You find YouTube pre-roll more effective than YouTube promoted videos. Could you tell me a little bit more about what YouTube pre-roll is, and what you meant by that?
GS:
Sure. YouTube pre-roll is a 15-30-second commercial that runs prior to a video playing on YouTube. Because all Vevo videos now have commercials, people have become more conditioned to seeing them. Promoted video is, if you’re searching for something, and you’ll see at the top or to the right – kind of like with Google search – a spot that is grayed out and labeled as a promoted video. It may or may not have anything to do with what you’re searching. But it’s going to be on at the top of the page.
We’ve found that the promoted video just doesn’t work as well as the pre-roll. Of course, they have two different functions. If I’m trying to build my YouTube views, promoted video might be a way to go. I think a better way would be to have 15-30-second samples. And then when people click on it, they go to the video. It’s also a cheaper option. One of the other things about YouTube pre-roll, in my opinion, is that CPCs tend to be really low, because it’s so difficult to implement, so people just don’t do it. And there’s also a ton of inventory on YouTube, of course. But pre-roll is also one of the more difficult things to implement. If you’ve done it once or twice, it comes easily. We have 10 or 15 campaigns right now on YouTube pre-roll, and working in that Google system can be quite difficult. If I were a baby band trying to do it for the first time, I would consult somebody.
I want to ask you a little bit about creative. Have you noticed that there is anything specific about somebody’s actual ad content that makes the creative aspect more compelling or less compelling, whether on pre-roll, Facebook or some other medium?
GS:
We don’t get a sense that the creative has anything to do with how compelling an ad is. I think it’s more about the artist. And, by the way, we don’t do any AB testing on pre-roll. We just get one spot and go with it. I think the success has a lot to do with the artist and the specific genre or category of music. Hip hop tends to do well on pre-roll. But with someone like Adam Lambert, the cost per click is decent, but the click-through is at about 1.4.
And for all these different media, what is a decent click-through rate?
GS:
For Facebook, on a cost-per-click basis, we want to see somewhere around 30 cents. Anything below that is decent. If it’s anything above that, we get a little frustrated. Pre-roll on YouTube is pretty close to that same number. We like the high 20s. And pre-roll tends to be more consistent than Facebook. We have an ad running with a big-name band on Facebook, and it’s doing horribly at 60 cents.
But in terms of click-through rate, .03 and .04 is probably the norm for Facebook. The lowest cost per click and highest click rate we ever saw – because those two are inversely related – was Jill Scott at a 2-cent cost-per-click. And the click-through was 1 percent.
I think a lot of people get disappointed when they’re telling me, “Oh, I only have a 4% conversion rate.” And I tell them, “You should be doing cartwheels.”
GS:
And the Jill Scott success had a lot to do with the fact that she’s Jill Scott. The artwork was amazing, and people were excited for the new record. There was already a swelling excitement for it.
What’s the click-through rate on promoted videos?
GS:
Promoted video click-through rate is similar to Google search: .03 or .04. With pre-roll, a hip hop will do high 2’s. A pop artist will do high 1’s – usually a 1.7 or a 1.8. With hip hop, sometimes it’s as much as 3 percent.
How many different artists have you run campaigns for since you’ve started your own business?
GS:
Well, this year alone, we’ve probably done 350 campaigns. We have 20 online campaigns running right now. We basically have a new campaign running every day.
To learn more about Gino Sesto and the work he does, visit the MULTI Media website. You can also connect with the company on Facebook.
David Choi is a singer, songwriter and producer. Originally from L.A., he grew up playing violin and piano and came into singing and songwriting when he was in high school. His music has been played on major channels like NBC, FOX, VH1, MTV, A&E, E!, Travel Channel, Style, PBS, Food Network and the Disney Channel. He has also worked on creative projects with companies like Kelloggs, Starburst, the American Cancer Society and Samsung. David was chosen in 2004 by David Bowie as the grand prize winner in his Mash-up contest. Shortly after, he won the USA Weekend Magazine John Lennon Songwriting Contest for teens and appeared in USA Weekend alongside Usher.
David Choi is an amazing example of a DIY artist that has used YouTube annotations, playlists and embedded links to connect to existing fans and continue to turn new people onto his music. In fact, on YouTube, he has amassed over 884,000 subscribers and has had over 95,000,000 YouTube upload video views. In 2008, he produced and released his first album, Only You, followed in 2010 by his second album By My Side.
Recently, I sat down and talked to David about his success in the music business as an artist and songwriter, why he has been so successful at marketing his music through YouTube and some advice he has for artists that want to connect with fans and build their careers.
Thanks so much for taking some time to talk to me, David. How did you get into the music business? And how did you build such a following using YouTube?
DC:
I grew up playing violin and piano. I was forced to play and actually hated it. But then I discovered songwriting in high school. This kid brought in a CD and said, “I created this music.” And it had never clicked in my mind before that you could actually create something from your own mind. That’s how it started. I started when I was 16 and started interning with music companies – the whole thing a lot of people in the industry do and have done. About six years ago, when I was 19, I got signed to Warner/Chapell as a staff writer, which I got through a workshop with ASCAP. I just put in my stuff and got selected out of 2,000 people throughout the United States along with about 15 other people. I got really lucky.
I started posting to YouTube in about 2006, and I kept posting. In my second year with Warner/Chapell, I posted a YouTube video just for fun. I wrote the song in about 15 minutes. It got featured on the home page somehow a couple weeks after I put it up. I wasn’t expecting anything, and I wasn’t even pursuing a career as an artist. I was strictly a songwriter and producer. About a week after my video was featured, it already had half a million views. And that’s kind of what got the ball rolling. I didn’t even start doing shows until 2009. Everything just started growing, and life took me in a little bit of a different direction than I intended. I’m still doing the producing thing but am focusing on the artist thing for now. In conjunction, I’ve been trying to do a lot of things with YouTube and other social media.
Let’s talk about that. Over the years, a lot of people have been featured on the home page of YouTube. And that didn’t wind up leading to a career, as it has for you. It seems like YouTube is where you’ve exploded. I notice you do really interesting things there with playlists and annotations, like the feature on your new album. Is there advice you can give people who want to market themselves on YouTube?
DC:
To be honest, I think a lot of the success I’m having through YouTube is because I started early. I’m not saying it’s too late for other people, because there are plenty of people that are rising to the top. There are some people who have only been on for a year and are just growing like crazy. YouTube definitely has changed from what it was when I first started. In 2006 it was more about, “Oh, wow. This person is making a video from their house. It’s so unpolished and unprofessional.” But the landscape on YouTube is changing, and now everyone is getting HD cameras. It will still work to not have polished videos, but it seems like the trend now is that everything is much more polished, because above all, YouTube is a video site. It was never really a music site; it was always a video site.
As far as advice for people that want to use YouTube well goes, I think consistency is very important. You have to be persistent.
How often do you post videos at this point?
DC:
I don’t really post as much as I would tell people to, because I’ve just been doing it for so long and am a little tired of it. I think I’ve been posting about one every 10 days or so. But I’ve been doing that for five years, so there have been periods of three months where I haven’t posted anything. That’s really bad. You should never do that. But I guess it’s a little more understandable for me since I’ve been doing it for such a long time.
I think if you’re just starting off, you should definitely do it every week. Another thing that seems to work is recording a cover of one of the more recent songs that came out and posting it, because people will be searching for that. It’s all about views and reaching an audience. And there are a lot of people searching for the new music that comes out. So, if they see your cover up there, they can listen to it and make their judgments about whether it’s good or bad. And if they like it, they might become a fan. They might check out some of your other covers or see if you have any originals. That’s the direction I took it. I did covers and hoped people would check out my originals.
I agree. I’ve found covers are a very good way to combat consumer fatigue. I don’t know about you, but when somebody says they’re a musician, I kind of roll my eyes. It’s gotten that bad sometimes. When somebody is bringing me something I’m somewhat familiar with, I’m more likely to give it a chance.
DC:
Yeah. That makes sense. Definitely.
How did you select the covers you chose?
DC:
I just looked at the top charts on iTunes and chose something in the Top 10. For me, personally, my selections were based on which songs I liked. And I really liked oldies, so I did a lot of covers of oldies. The label didn’t like that so much at the time.
Labels used to crack down a lot more on YouTube covers. Lately I haven’t heard of anyone getting into real trouble for it, other than a wrist slap – a take-down notice or an infringement notice.
DC:
Nobody has been sued yet on YouTube for doing a cover. But there have been channels that have been suspended. I actually got suspended before because I got three strikes for doing a cover of “What a Wonderful World,” which I did twice. Nowadays, there are things being worked out with labels and publishing companies. I’ve seen a little bit of progress happening. Really, you can’t stop it. People want to share music. And of course there are two sides to the story, and I completely understand both. There’s the business side, and then there’s the whole creative idea of being able to share music because it brings joy to people’s lives. My viewpoint is that we should find a solution and find a way to monetize everything.
And I think people are starting to chip away at it. For example, Sony emailed me, and they said they are getting into the YouTube thing too. The truth is, YouTube is very powerful; everyone is on it. But that’s a whole other topic.
I notice you’re also really big on collaboration. Has that contributed to getting a lot of fans and viewers?
DC:
I would say that collaborating is definitely another tool to expand your fan base. It’s a great way to get a new audience, in a way similar to doing covers. It’s about drawing a different crowd. Of course there are some politics involved. There are issues like, “How much am I going to promote this person, and how much are they going to promote me?” But aside from that, generally collaborations help mix their fans with yours and your fans with theirs, depending on how much you and the other artists promote.
You have to throw a little caution to the wind when getting into business with someone new and hope that they will at least provide an equal output of effort so you’re not just getting someone who is leeching off your brand equity.
DC:
Yeah. The way you worded it makes it sound like a business. And it kind of is. At the same time, most people started YouTube because it was something they did for fun or because they were bored. It didn’t used to be a business, and most people didn’t go into it thinking it was a business. Maybe they do now, because it’s a partner program. And now people get excited when they find out they could possibly make money from it. But when I was first getting into it in 2006, everyone that was also getting into it thought it was just all for fun. Now there’s actually a business model you can follow with it.
Do you get performance royalties checks from the stuff on YouTube? Do you see any income from the videos you post?
DC:
I guess it could be considered a performance royalty, although you don’t get paid per view. It’s similar to AdSense. You definitely don’t make as much money through these ads as you would through a commercial on TV. In terms of the amount of money you can make on your original content – it’s probably around $1,000 per million views.
If you think about TV, and if it was working the same way as YouTube, an ad that played on a TV show that gets 2 million viewers in a night would make $2,000. Mainstream media charges tens of thousands of dollars for commercial placements on a TV show that gets 2 million viewers, whereas on YouTube, you get $2,000. That’s why the industry is not happy. I don’t know if mainstream media is asking for too much money or if YouTube is undervaluing people’s content. That’s also another subject.
But is YouTube a good source of income? For some people it is. For musicians, I wouldn’t say it would be a main source. But it will help you get people to your shows and it will help drive album sales. And people share videos. So, it helps with exposure as well.
On the new release, you used links and annotations within video really well. Can you explain exactly what you did on that album promo?
DC:
It’s an interactive CD basically. I decided to do it because I know people are going to steal my music anyway. So, I made it available on YouTube with some voiceovers telling people what they were listening to and where they can get it. So, if they don’t want to hear a version with my voiceover, they can get the album on iTunes. It was basically a way for me to make it easy for people to listen to my music and for people like you to embed it in blogs. A musician that loves YouTube would love it if you embedded their videos. You’re just sharing it. It’s expected that the videos will be shared.
Do you have any parting words of advice for artists or songwriters?
DC:
If you’re a musician, and you don’t have videos on YouTube, you have to do it. It’s free advertising. If I look at myself as an example from a third person perspective, I think it’s funny that someone who had no ambition to be an artist and travel around the world performing, through the power of YouTube, was forced in that direction. I think that alone right there is enough reason for all people that want to do music to be on YouTube. People are using it already, it’s free advertising, and for me, it’s the biggest promotional tool – more than Facebook, Twitter, anything else.
To learn more about David Choi, visit his website. You can also check out all his music on his official YouTube channel. Below is his song “By My Side,” an example of how he uses annotations in his YouTube videos to promote his music.
I got the chance to catch up with my friend Emily White of Whitesmith Entertainment and her client Sebastian, who is the self-described drummer and occasional guitar player for Family of the Year. Many of you have not heard of Family of the Year and that was kind of the idea. I want to follow the path of a group that is just starting off their career under the guidance of a gifted manager. I got to catch up Emily and Sebastian just before CMJ.
Sebastian, what is your role business-wise for Family of the Year?
S:
My role is the day-to-day task manager of the band – the liaison between Emily and her team and all the other members of the team. I do scheduling, logistics, etc.
EW:
He’s done an amazing job making sure we’re staying on track. We self-released an EP last month that was donation based and that’s been going really, really well. And we’re releasing their debut album next month. There’s a lot that goes into that: the artwork and producing the CD’s and mastering and everything that goes into that. Sebastian has been amazing making sure everybody’s staying on track.
S:
The group has naturally evolved into each person having a specific role. No one was assigned anything they didn’t want to take on. My brother (Joseph – guitar / vox in FOTY) is incredibly inclined when it comes to producing and recording music. It was his major project to write this music and record it. That was his natural ability. We’ve got another guy James who has extensive audio engineering background, so he’s at the shows dealing with the technical stuff. We have whiz kids on computers as far as social networking stuff: Christina and Vanessa. Brent is our graphic designer and will eventually take over our website management. He’s been putting Vanessa’s hand-drawn art into the computers in order for us to be able to create all our merchandise and our CD art. It’s naturally turned into a finely-tuned machine.
And you guys are from Silver Lake?
S:
Originally my brother and I are from Massachusetts and the two girls are from Orange County, CA. The two other guys are from the south. One’s from Louisiana and the other is from Jacksonville, FL. We formed in Silver Lake and we now reside a few miles from Silver Lake. We all moved into a big house that we’re rebuilding in the hills outside L.A.
It’s kind of nice you have different sets of friends in different markets. You must save money on hotel costs.
S:
It certainly does.
EW:
We also do that on the road. The band bought a 1986 RV, so we haven’t spent anything on hotels. They all crash together, and sometimes there’s a filmmaker or a sound guy or me, and everybody sleeps pretty well in it.
S:
There are seven of us right now. There’s the band and then Chris. He’s actually making a documentary about the band. He’s been traveling with us on and off over the last couple months. Emily is going to be joining us. It’s usually quite a packed vehicle and really fun … and economical, really.
I first heard of you guys about 90 days ago. What experiences did you guys have with nationwide touring, either individually or as a group prior to 90 days ago?
S:
We had some experience, but not an extensive amount. We basically had several DIY tours that we had put together, but we’d never worked with a booking agent.
EW:
These were other bands also.
S:
My brother and James and I used to play in a band together back in Boston for years called Unbusted. Mostly we were in Boston and New York and the Northeast, but we did go out on the road a few times. But they were DIY tours, and it was really hard and really expensive and kind of heartbreaking. You get yourself so very excited, but if the framework isn’t there and you’re not getting yourself out there, then you’re not going to make money and you’re not really going to attract attention. For years back in Boston when we first knew Emily, she was juggling college and interning and a supporter of our music. She was on the ball back in the day telling us about mailing lists, social networking websites and things like that. She told us, “This is the way it’s going to be,” and we would say, “No, we’re traditional band that is going to keep playing club after club and wowing people, and soon people will be showing up by the thousands.” Sure enough, we were wrong. We had some experience touring, but it wasn’t effective touring. You could go out there and spend two years touring the states, but if certain pieces aren’t in place it’s not going to be a good experience. We had fun, but as far as trying to build a career and a following and selling albums, it’s next to impossible if you don’t have the correct presence online. I think that’s the major factor these days. The biggest difference is an ability to connect with fans. It’s the only avenue these days.
What has been the difference this time? How did you go about getting a booking agent?
S:
I honestly think it was the strength of the recordings that Joseph and Vanessa had made. The music was never really intended on being released. It was really a love child of theirs. They spent a year and a half in their apartment in Silver Lake recording this music together and falling in love and recording these songs. It was really a natural, beautiful thing that was turned into our product. I think that’s what has given us all a chance. We were reaching out with a lot of people. I was pretty much going through my Rolodex and saying, “Let me call up everyone I know to pull that one favor.” I contacted anybody whether they’d slighted us or been really great to us. I was standing in line at the DMV sending off e-mails. We were just really excited about what was happening with this band. We had just formed, we had a couple of really great concerts coming up and we were really excited about the music, and I reflected that in an e-mail to Emily and she came back immediately excited. And she started kicking butt and churning up some interest from their end.
That’s important to ask you about too. People have different projects throughout their lives. Did this feel different?
S:
100%, yes. It is a totally different monster. Everybody has their teenage/high school band and has high hopes and hometown dreams to fulfill. And then if you’re not one of those lucky few bands that makes it with your high school buddies, you have your sophomore slump with your next band. We formed another group called the Billionaires that achieved some kind of minor local success in L.A. We played some really great shows, released some albums, sold some copies but that was a major turning point. We went from being a small town, hard rock, raw group of kids that moved to the city and matured and settled into songwriting. Joe always had the ability to write a good song, but I think the music and voice kind of naturally emerged. It felt different because it felt really right. We all agreed we could play with this band in any situation, whether it was Madison Square Garden or someone’s kitchen. That’s really a great feeling, and it’s not just about sound, being too loud or too quiet. It’s a matter of being really comfortable with it and it representing us.
EW:
They made incredible recordings. But the reason they were able to do that is because they’ve been musicians for so long. I have other people saying, “How is this happening so quickly?” Well, although it appears that it’s happening quickly, these guys have been in bands, they’ve played SXSW, they’ve done the DIY tours so they really know what it’s like. I loved them in college, but they’ve developed so well, and it really shows. People like us that are listening to music all day, when we hear really great music and really great songwriting, that’s really going to stand out.
S:
I guess I neglected to mention that half the band had been playing music forever, putting on concerts since we were ten with aspirations to become rock stars. What’s great about the other half of the band is that they haven’t. We have half junior veterans and half greenhorns. It keeps it really interesting and fresh for everyone.
I noticed on the website that you guys are doing the name-your-own-price for the CDs. I know a lot of people have advocated this approach. How has it worked for you so far?
S:
It’s been fantastic. It’s just great. Everyone gets our music. I think it’s tough to force someone to pay for something these days, especially when it’s our first release. We just want to get our music out there. It’s worked out really well because we end up with the information that is their e-mail address, which I think is more valuable than five dollars. In the end, we’re bulking up our fan base. It’s about getting direct to the fans, so this has expedited it.
EW:
We own the rights, so we’re able to do that. And the average donation has been about ten dollars. Obviously beyond that it’s amazing, because of course, if you can give the band your money, that’s fantastic. They have a really great artist statement that’s really upfront: the money goes to gas and bringing these people to your town. But beyond that, we do just want the word spread. And if it’s a poor college student that can’t afford anything, awesome, we just want you to hear the music and come out to a show.
S:
We’ve had people pay fifty dollars, we’ve had a thousand people pay nothing. It doesn’t bother us. We want the music out there. I would give anybody a physical copy for free in person if they wanted it.
How long have you been collecting addresses, and how many (ballpark) would you say you have?
EW:
We have been collecting since September 22nd when it was released. I think we’ve had 2,000 page views, a few hundred downloads and it’s definitely gone well. We’re literally using that to spend on Facebook ads, posters and reinvest in the band right away.
S:
Just reinvesting and reaching out a little further. It’s great to spread out the money and invest a little more. We’re not pocketing it.
EW:
Sebastian had a great point about data collection. It’s wonderful for me to see these e-mail addresses, the countries, the person’s name. I write back to some people and say, “You’re in Australia, how did you hear about this band?”
S:
We’ve got these great Google analytics coming through. Greece is number three (The third ranked country for FOTY web traffic). It’s really cool and great information. It’s fantastic to be able to see the information and reach out to them. The whole world is conspiring right now to help the indie band.
EW:
Our number one traffic generator has been Twitter. That’s great, because it’s the band interacting with fans and with other artists, and it’s making a huge difference. We’re going to do a similar thing for their album release next month. It’s going to be a donation-based album, a 15-song album. Anybody that pays over ten dollars is going to get a physical copy. We’ll probably do a couple other tiers too.
How about the postcard campaign?
(To help fund their trip to CMJ Family of the Year offered fans personalized post cards from the road for a $5 donation)
S:
It’s going great. We’ve had a huge response to it. I don’t know how many we’ve done, but we’ve done a bunch. It’s fun for the band. It’s old school Twitter. It’s direct to the people, and people want that. I know I would want that if I was falling in love with a band again.
EW:
People like to know that they’re helping out. I went to Jill Sobule’s show last night, and she brought the fan up on stage that had donated the most amount of money on her album, and she wrote a song for that fan and did a duet with her and I almost cried. The fan literally helped make this album.
S:
We’ve had several people purchase several postcards. It’s overwhelming that if you give people the opportunity to help out, so many people will take that opportunity.
EW:
Cut out the middle person. People really like supporting artists that they’re into, so we’ve been really blessed.
S:
We’ve had a really positive reaction at live shows whenever we mention from the stage that we’re doing this on our own and we need help. It’s amazing. People love the idea of it. It’s not just hoots and hollers. People actually react and come and purchase stuff.
I was always fond of buying a drink for a band coming through town, but gas money seems a much better use of everybody’s time. What’s this documentary all about?
S:
It just slid in perfectly with work and planning. Vanessa is an actress and has been one forever. The DP on the last film she worked on was a fan of our music, and we invited him to come out with us. He expressed interest in working on a filmed documentary of the band. It just worked out that he cleared his schedule and just fit in perfectly with the band. It’s not as if there’s ever any kind of weirdness about this extra person hanging out. He’s just a great friend of the band. I don’t know how to describe it, but it just worked out.
EW:
We’re incredibly lucky that it came through. Chris has been busting ass, and I’ll wake up and see him literally sleeping on the RV floor. He’s amazing.
Are you going to repurpose the footage at all?
S:
We have a five-minute short that’s going to be released soon, though we’re not sure what it’s going to be released with. Later on after this full tour we’re doing, there’s going to be a twenty to thirty minute documentary of the whole thing. And it’s really focusing around the band doing it itself. It’s not just the antics of being on tour. It’s focusing on what we’re talking about so far.
Is there stuff that you’ve tried that hasn’t work? Advice to somebody who will ultimately be reading this?
S:
Definitely listen to Emily White. (Laughs) If we had listened to her five years ago we would’ve been a lot further down the road, though I think also if we had, we wouldn’t be here today. But seriously, I think that in rock and roll, it’s really hard to give the Internet as much credit as it’s due. Computers aren’t fun, computers aren’t cool, but it’s absolutely critical to be in touch with people. It’s a new era and a new age. And be creative. If you’re having fun people will have fun as well. Whether you had fun creating your artwork as a group, naming your group or making your album, it does reflect in the product no matter what it is.
EW:
Focusing on the work and the art is important. The art has to be amazing. I don’t think musicians should spend more than an hour or two a day on social networking. They should be rehearsing and writing and recording. It’s important and needs to be kept up but really cap it at two hours. We’re all here to support these artists and their music.
S:
I guess I neglected to say that because it’s such an automatic thing for me.
EW:
There are so many musicians that get too caught up in all the social networking stuff, and I think that can be overwhelming and dangerous.
Yea, I have found it can be a dangerous time suck as well…
S:
Back to the whole dynamic of the group and the roles. It’s been amazing that Joe, who is the band leader, producer, songwriter hasn’t been tethered to this business bologna at all. Of course we all make the decisions together, but he’s not getting on Twitter.
EW:
I don’t want his head in it. His head needs to be in music all the time.
S:
It’s really been ideal. If there’s an opportunity to divvy up jobs where it’s stress free, that’s the thing to do.
EW:
These guys are working their asses off. It’s really impressive.
S:
I want to reiterate “practice.” We’ve been playing forever, and it still isn’t enough. We spent six days a week since March from 7 p.m. to 3 a.m. in our rehearsal space.
EW:
I wanted to say on the filmmaker thing, we have to be creative about those partners too. I know tons of video directors and filmmakers that are used to getting budgets from labels. But MTV doesn’t exist and YouTube doesn’t always give the rev share people need to get the money back. For Chris, we haven’t set exactly how we’re going to release that content. But that filmmaker is an artist too, and that’s part of the donation process.
——
Check out family of the year
