Posts Tagged ‘touring’

John Wozniak, has worn many hats during his fifteen years in the music industry: As Singer/Songwriter; Record Producer; Owner of Mushroom Studios (Vancouver, BC), A&R Rep (Capitol/EMI), but he’s probably best known as the creative force behind Marcy Playground; the band that brought you the 1997 hit “Sex and Candy.”  Almost 12 years later, John continues to write and release albums with the band, and I was able to catch up with him by phone last week, as Marcy Playground’s “Leaving Wonderland 2009/10” tour found their bus rolling into Houston Texas.

This is part II of the interview with John You can find Part 1 here.  We were discussing what it was like for John when they had their first hit twelve years ago and I was just about to get more current…

Musician Coaching:  How has touring changed? What kind of tools are you using?

JW:

People think… even if you’re not selling records you can tour.  Well, it’s expensive to tour.  It’s not free, and it’s not cheap.  First of all, you need a booking agent.  A booking agent has to be good.  They have be able to get you good shows that offer high enough guarantees to pay your expenses.  They also have to know which promoters are legit, and which promoters are crooks.  Otherwise you could end up in Europe, playing your heart out and never get paid.   Don’t believe me?  Watch the recent documentary on the band ANVIL.  You also need a tour manager.  Somebody has to advance the shows with the promoters, organize the travel plans, and settle at the end of every night.  If it’s going to be your bass player, he’d better be really good, and have the patience for it, or he won’t be your bass player for very long.  So if you’re going to have a booking agent and a tour manager, portions of the money you’ll be making on the road are obviously going to be going to them. Not only that, but you have to have a bus or a van with a trailer for your equipment, money for gas, money to eat. You might have to have a hotel room or two. If you can crash at people’s houses on their couch, good for you, most people can’t.  So, the point is, touring is not cheap, and it is definitely not free.  You have to find ways to pay for your tour other than guarantees.  Sometimes there may not be a guarantee. The promoter might want to do a deal where you get a portion of the door receipts.  Well, if nobody shows up that night, because the promoter didn’t feel like spending any money to promote the show, you’re going to be shit out of luck and out of money really quickly.  Selling T-shirts is a good way to supplement tour income, as long as people buy them.  But why would anyone buy a t-shirt from an unknown band?  Who goes to a bar and buys a T-shirt from an unknown band?  Not many people.  I haven’t bought any.  My experience has been that people only buy T-shirts from bands they know.  What they will buy, however, is a CD.  So, selling CD’s on tour is critical.  If nothing else, you have to get your music out there.  You should also be gathering names for your mailing list.  It’s easy to set up a table with cards on it that people can fill out.  If you have somebody’s email address, Facebook page, MySpace page, etc… you can keep them informed about what you’re doing.

So starting out, touring is not a good way to make money, or to get heard.  If nobody knows who you are, there’s no impetus for them to come out and hear you play.  So you almost have to get your music out for free on the Internet just so that people care.  You can’t be selling a record if nobody has any idea who you are, and no idea of what they’re getting themselves into. It’s like trying to pick a prize behind a curtain where you have no idea what it is.  Imagine trying to pay for that prize behind the curtain.  Nobody’s gonna do that!

MusicianCoaching:

And you’re assuming the odds are it’s a prize. With what I know about music, most of it I don’t like.

JW:

Actually, I’m with you.  I’m assuming it’s not a prize.

I think the way to do it in this day and age, if you’re going to do it at all, is to network.  You have to get into a market, a place, a city where there’s a music scene and where people’s attention is focused on that music scene.  Doing it from Kansas City, MO isn’t going to happen for you… just like doing it from Olympia WA wasn’t going to happen for me.  You would be the luckiest band in the world if you make it out of some city in the Midwest that is not Chicago or Minneapolis.  It’s almost impossible to do it.  So move to Minneapolis, or Chicago, or New York, or LA.  Move to a music hub.  Seattle’s a poor place to do it at this point I believe.  People are looking at Portland a bit these days, because there is a good music scene there.  Atlanta, Nashville — there are a couple places where it makes sense.  But you need to go to one of those places.  Get involved in the music scene there, go see bands, introduce yourself to other musicians you like and find a community that accepts you.  In that community, you can support each other. There’s always that guy with a ProTools rig in his garage with some killer gear that he spent his life collecting, that would be willing to record you for a small piece of the back end (2 or 3 points)… or just for fun.  If you get a deal out of the demo he makes, you give him an override on the record.

One thing I want to be really clear on is, you have to be very careful about who you shack up with in business deals in the beginning.  There are a lot of bottom-feeders out there.  If you’re a young local artist that starts to show some real talent and potential in your area, you will find that there is no shortage of unscrupulous people who call themselves “Managers”, or call themselves “Producers.”  Pond scum like that will likely weasel up to you and try to take a piece of your future.  You need to be cautious and avoid those people.  Do your research. Get books out of the library, or go to your local book store.  Amazon is a really amazing place for buying used books for a dollar.  There’s no lack of information out there on the business of music.  Once you have that side of things figured out, and you understand the difference between a mechanical royalty and an artist royalty, you can better make decisions about your career.  And then, when someone offers you a deal, you’ll be able to tell if that person is for real… or a weasel.

Another thing young bands have to be aware of these days is getting stuck in a “dead deal.”  Let’s say you sign your five-album deal, two firm plus three options, and a month later that company no longer exists, you’re going to be kicking yourself while your contract is in probate for the next six months to two years, wondering why you didn’t research the company beforehand.  This happens a lot.  Bands get stuck on labels that don’t exist anymore.  Unfortunately, somebody still owns the assets of that dead label, which includes the exclusive rights to your band’s recordings.  In this day and age, that scenario plays out more and more.  Labels are being sucked into other labels, others are being closed.  It’s very common.  Google is an amazing resource, and you can find out a lot about what’s happening at certain record labels, or their parent companies, just by Googling news and information on them.  I personally think it’s worth doing a little Google research before doing business with anyone.

MusicianCoaching:

What tools are you using for Marcy Playground that have come around recently?

JW:

The most important thing we’ve discovered is the same thing everyone else has discovered. Social networking sites work. You can really start to develop a fan base through social networking:  Myspace; Facebook; YouTube. YouTube is probably the most under-utilized of them all.  As much as people like to listen to music, they’d rather see a video and music at the same time.  On your website, you can always take the YouTube code and embed videos into your webpage … or your Myspace or Facebook pages. You should get yourself one of those $120 Flip video cameras and shoot yourself playing songs, or getting out there and goofing off to your music. You should develop a profile on YouTube where you can have a big presence. You can make them funny too, so they’ll have a better chance of becoming viral. The band “OK Go” put up that famous video of them dancing on treadmills, and all of a sudden, they have millions of hits for a video that they shot themselves.  They came up with a really good idea… four guys dancing on treadmills.  Next thing you know, the MTV Video Music Awards roll around and there’s OK Go doing the treadmill dance, onstage.  Who had heard of OK Go before that?  Not many people.  Now that video has around 49 Million hits.

Musician Coaching:

What would you do differently having lived through this experience as a new artist?

JW:

Nowadays I’d network like crazy, but still keep my core organization small and smart. That’s my philosophy on it.  I think the fewer personalities involved in a creative endeavor, and the smarter they are, the better.  There are a few large organizations in management that do very well for their clients, but sometimes all you need is one really aggressive, intelligent, self-motivated individual out there.  That’s what we had in Chris Blake at the time when “Sex and Candy” broke.  He was just one guy with a few key clients–  Toad the Wet Sprocket, The Odds, and Marcy Playground – but he was super motivated and really smart, and we were able to make a lot of good decisions, and reap the rewards of his wisdom whenever he was around.

Aside from that, I would move to a big city, go out every night and see live local music, get involved with other musicians and collaborate a lot, write with other songwriters, be as social of an animal as I could possibly be, and meet everybody in that scene.  I’d probably try to avoid the “open-mic night” crowd, since my experience has been that that tends to be a pretty “dead-end” scene – Find real musicians, including a real drummer, and get a real gig!  –  I would work on my song craft and make as many recordings as humanly possible, shooting for the best sounding thing I could possibly get.  I’d bang down the door of the local radio station and get them to spin it on one of their “Featured Local Artist” segments.  Most big stations have a segment in their programing like that, where they match your song up against another local band’s.  I’ve seen those contests work for artists.  In fact I recorded a band in Vancouver called Stabilo that had won one of those.  Their demo for a song called “Everybody” was getting some spins on 99.3 CFOX in Vancouver.  I owned a major recording studio there for over 7 years, called Mushroom Studios, so I was in town on business when I heard their song come on the radio in my car.  I was surprised that it was a local band because it sounded like a hit to me.  Shortly thereafter I went to see them play at a club on Granville Street called The Royal.  There were 10 people in the audience, but the band was great.  So I went up to them afterwards, introduced myself, and invited them to come to the studio the next day to discuss their career plans.  We all hit it off, so I did a few recordings with the guys, pitched them to some labels, and did my part to help them become a national act in Canada.  They’ve gone on to do quite well.  If they hadn’t entered that CFOX local contest… who knows what would have happened.  That sort of local success becomes incredibly valuable, because it gives you something tangible you can build upon and, hopefully, translate into something bigger.  If you’re in an urban market, and your song is being played for millions of people, so much the better.

I’d get a band together and play local shows without spreading ourselves too thin.  Instead of hitting the road and wasting a lot of time and money touring… I’d try to get a residency at one of the local bars or clubs in town, and play there every Tuesday or Thursday night and start to develop a following.  If I knew of a bar that had one slow night a week… I’d ask the owner if they wouldn’t mind having my band play for free, and then I’d bring all my friends out.  I’d keep a mailing list and inform the people who signed up for it of all my news and events.  And, of course, I’d use the internet to socially network like crazy.

You just have to get involved, meet people, have new experiences and learn.  Make yourself an expert on everything and be social.   Don’t sit in your parents’ basement smoking pot, wondering when the A&R guy from Capitol is going to knock on your door and come down the stairs to listen to your brilliant music.  It’s not going to happen.

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Check out what John is up to on the Marcy Playground Website.

I was fortunate enough to sit down with my friend Reverend Dave Ciancio from Yeah! Management.  Dave was one of the founders of the hard rock indie promotion, marketing and management firm The Syndicate and recently has started  Yeah! Management.  I have been fortunate enough to know Dave for a long time and have watched him help the careers of dozens of hard rock bands.

Musician Coaching:

Tell me about Yeah! Management!

DC:

I run Yeah! Management, an organization within Artist Arena. Artist Arena is a company that handles VIP Fan Clubs and tickets. So for example if the Rolling Stones go on tour, you can by a seat on the stage and a drink with Mick Jagger for $10,000. We don’t do the Rolling Stones, but that’s the concept.  What’s cool about it is that we have access to all the people that Artist Arena has access to, whether that would be Green Day’s manager or the people at Warner Music Group or the Agency Group people. So, it becomes beneficial for our own artists to learn and watch and piggyback onto what is happening in the larger company.

Musician Coaching:

So you’re doing primarily hard rock and metal management, like Poison the Well and Shadows Fall. What are the other stand-outs?

DC: Shadows Fall is our flagship band, and I’ve been working with them since they were unsigned. They are kind of my band of brothers. They bring in a lot of attention from metal bands. A lot of our roster is hard rock, but we have a couple pop bands like TAT and VersaEmerge. We’re all over the place as long as it’s rock and roll.

Musician Coaching:

What gets your attention as a manager business wise?

DC:

From my last couple years at The Syndicate I was on a signing freeze. I wasn’t looking for anything new. I really believed in our roster and felt really committed and busy and had enough going on that I didn’t see a need to expand the roster. When we started the new company, I realized that without having to be in charge of doing all the marketing stuff I definitely had time to bring on more. With bringing on new employees and being in a new situation, I realized we had room for new bands. It became about relearning a process I hadn’t done in a few years – looking for young talent. The more popular your roster gets or the more successful a band you manage gets, the more bands that come to you. I couldn’t pick out a particular attribute that really shines, but in the end it comes down to, “Do I have an appreciation for the songwriting? Do I like the band members as people? Are they business savvy or willing to be business savvy?” And then there’s that Superstar X Factor – “What makes this band stand out? Is it the actual players in the band, the vocalist, or are they pretty? Do they own some other company or do something else that might help jumpstart their career, like a merch company or are they a skater?” It’s any number of things, but my criteria has gone up, and I’m a lot less willing to jump on things because I like them. I’ve found many times in the past that just because you like a band doesn’t mean you should work with them, and sometimes it’s better to just be a fan or help people out. Criteria wise? Be awesome.

Musician Coaching:

The online thing has changed a lot, and you’ve spent a lot of time working on marketing with bands. Are there things out there you think all bands should be doing to promote their careers that are low- or no-cost?

DC:

Everybody needs to be on Twitter and Facebook and Myspace. If you’re not there, what are you doing? You need to know how people are looking for something or how they are looking for music. Maybe it’s reading a magazine or clicking on YouTube all day or looking on Facebook, or maybe a friend has to tell someone about it. You never know how someone is going to find something, so you have to be everywhere. If a person likes listening to music on Pure Volume, be on Pure Volume. If a person likes listening to music on iLike, be on iLike. If people are on a Twitter frenzy, then be on Twitter and have something interesting to say. You have to be where the people are, and that’s the foundation. Once you’re there, you can market yourself; but if you’re not online, what’s the point?

Musician Coaching:

I notice that you do a lot of social networking yourself. Do you have any suggestions for expanding your reach?

DC: The standard answer applies – be interesting. Find something you like to talk about or are an expert on, or something you think you can use to draw attention to yourself. For example, I like to talk about burgers, so I started a burger Web site. Aaron from Underoath is a big foodie, and people are starting to know him because of the food. It takes him out of being just an artist, or the drummer in the band or the singer in a band; he’s now a food guy. So there’s another reason for people to pay attention. I think one of the problems with marketing today, especially for bands is that is becomes very unilateral – “Talk about the music.” People who are into music are into lifestyle. I think if you’re going to be on Twitter and Facebook and bother to have a Tumblr blog, you need to realize that the audience you have probably isn’t just interested in music. If you can bring something else to the table, bring it. Social networking is all about tools, and you have to know how to use them. There are all kinds of Twitter applications that can help you find new people or stay on top of your account. I check my Twitter karma once a week for my marketing stuff – Am I following all the people that are following me? Am I following too many people that don’t matter? In the Twitter world this is looked at as spam. It’s really about knowing how to use the tools.

Musician Coaching: Talk to me more about aspiring artists and what they should be doing to maintain relationships with their fan base?

DC: There’s nothing more important than engaging a fan base. If people have found their way to you, you have to assume it’s not just about music. I can’t tell you how many times I listened to Pantera as a kid, and all they did was talk about smoking pot. I liked smoking pot as a kid, so that appealed to me. I’m not saying every band should go on their website and start talking about pot, but you need to find what you do and figure it out and use it. It all comes back to be interesting and find out how to network. As far as generating mailing lists, it’s just natural. If you’re going to have a Myspace page, get a Mozes account, and if you’re going to have a Mozes account, get a Reverb Nation account. You can collect e-mails and phone numbers. For young bands, I’m a big fan of Ning and Drupal Sites. You can create your own Myspace and social network. We did this with Shadows Fall, and had a lot of success. We had a couple thousand people and called it a fan club, and told people to sign up for free. To use that appropriately, I can send people on there a message with the click of a button that says, “Tickets for our new tour are on sale today. We’re going to give you people 24-hour access before the public.” Things like that are really good.

Musician Coaching:

Being a hard rock band or a metal band, the road has to be a part of your life. What was the process of building a touring base like?

DC:

It’s really hard, especially in modern times and the modern economy. There’s no money out there.  You have to give to get. When I first started in the music business and I wanted to manage bands, there was certainly not enough money on the table to do what I wanted full time, so I had to DJ at a club on Tuesday nights just to make the rent. It’s a matter of how much you’re willing to sacrifice. If you’re a young band and you want to build a touring base, get on the road and figure out how to stay on the road and maximize on the road. Keep costs down.

Musician Coaching:

Are there any specific tricks or common mistakes you see when people overspend?

DC: I think the most common one I see is that bands will spend a significant amount of time on the road getting paid $100 per night, scraping nickels together to get to the next gig and just pulling into town with three drops of gas left in the tank, and the minute they see a little bit of success, it becomes a game of luxury – “Now we want three guitar techs and two buses.” The magic disappears at some point. Not everybody can get up and stay up. And then they get accustomed to it and can’t adjust their business to fit economies of scale. The biggest mistake I see is getting a taste of it and not realizing you may not see it again. It’s better to get a taste of it and then try to keep as many of those methods of saving money with you so you keep your money.

Musician Coaching:

Do you think it’s necessary for most artists to discuss something other than their music?

DC:

It depends. I love to look at a band like Pantera. For years all they were was “F**king Pantera,” and they didn’t need anything else. Then the DVD’s came out and we saw them backstage and partying and playing these massive shows and that took it to the next level.  That’s how they got their personality. Even if you’re Dream Theater, and you’re clearly a musicians’-based band, play that up. They talk about drum lessons and guitar lessons and tablatures. Maybe they’re not talking about the new single on the record, but they are still talking about something else and appealing to the audience. I think it’s important to talk about something more than the songs and the tour and the record. What else are you doing that makes you who you are?

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You can check out Dave’s quest for Burgers and of course his music management company at Burger Conquest and Yeah! Management

I was able to ask my friend Howie Schnee the Co-Owner of Creative Entertainment Group and Co-Owner of Sullivan Hall and Sullivan Room in New York a few questions about what his job is like and what helps influence his decisions in booking bands into his clubs.  I have known Howie since the early 90s when Sullivan Hall was called the Lion’s Den.  He was in fact the first club owner to take a risk on a band I played with in college many years ago.

Howie has been responsible for building more acts on a local or regional level than any three people I know.  The Lion’s Den  (now Sullivan Hall) was one of the stepping stone clubs that most bands who wound up on Bonnaroo or  the H.O.R.D.E. tour played before becoming big regional or national acts.

Howie's Venue- Sulivan Hall

Musician Coaching:

How has the process of band /artist selection changed at the clubs in the last 10-15 years both for established artists and for the audition nights or slow nights when you are trying out new local talent. (online vs offline, more or less competition for slots etc…)

Howie:

It’s changed significantly. The immediacy of the web is mind-boggling. Almost all bands post samples of their music online. The old way was for bands to make initial contact over the phone and follow up with a press kit. By the time we received that press kit, details of that initial conversation were fuzzy at best. Besides music being immediate, there are many clues online that give a good idea as to whether or not a band has their act together so to speak such as having a robust website. Also, whether or not there’s some buzz and awareness about them like having a lot of Myspace plays, Facebook friends, Twitter followers for example. I’ll occasionally do random searches to see if there’s any interesting press about the act.

Musician Coaching:

How do you prefer to be approached by an unknown artist trying to get a
show at the clubs you book? (referral, cold calling, how materials should be
presented and where i.e. Sonicbids, myspace etc)

Howie:

It’s really best for bands to include links for all of their sites they have EPKs on – MySpace, Sonicbids, Reverb Nation, etc. Just depending upon the buyer’s preference of site(s) they like to review bands on. A band should state the basics that talent buyers would like to know: where they’re from, what genre(s) they consider themselves to be in, when and where they’ve played the market before and how it went. If a band has friends, family or any roots to New York City that will insure a decent draw, that’s a good thing to mention. Also, anything noteworthy that may garner attention – album release show, TV or radio appearances, notable press, etc.

Musician Coaching:

For a new band with few or no references that you can call to get a feel
for their following – how is the best way to approach you and how often so
as to be heard but not to annoy the hell out of you?

Howie:

References aren’t necessarily important, but professionalism and a good attitude go a long way. The other day I booked an out-of-town people who drew only 20 people to a show, on a Wednesday. Their manager followed up with a great email of thanks, but also noting how he felt strongly if we gave them a chance on a weekend night, he knew they could do 50 people at minimum. Then he followed that up with something to the effect of ‘I understand if you’d like to keep us to a week night and we’ll work hard to get to a weekend night eventually.’ His non-demanding positive attitude implored me to give him a weekend show despite the smaller draw. It also helped that their music was really good.

Musician Coaching:

Describe the volume of submissions you get on a daily or weekly basis for
artist who want to play shows at Sullivan Hall and what percentage of those
actually get in the door to play?

Howie:

There are three of us that book the club so it’s hard to say exactly. I’d estimate we probably get around 20-25 submissions a day on average. Unless a band’s music or attitude is really terrible, we give most bands a shot. First time in though, it may be on a Monday or Tuesday.

Musician Coaching:

What traits in a band member or manager make you feel like this is
someone who is serious about their business and makes you want to help them
build their following (both for you and the club)

Howie:

I alluded to it earlier. Positive attitude, non-demanding, carrying themselves professionally, strong work ethic all go a long way with me. That hard work ethic is essential if a band wants to take it to the next level. Nothing should be beneath them. I love walking out of a show and seeing a musician handing out hand bills or CDs or MP3 cards promoting their band. If I see that, and its 30 degrees and snowing, no matter what they sound like, I’ll book that band.

Musician Coaching:

Describe some of the frustrations you have with they way musicians
approach you for a gig and things that people should avoid saying / doing.

Howie:

One of the most frustrating things is when you book an act, and discover afterwards they have multiple gigs lined up in town, and they’ve never bothered to mention it. I can understand a band wanting to get out there and play a lot (although I don’t feel that’s the right approach), but they should mention it during the booking process. I think acts should be more focused on the quality of shows they do versus quantity.  Acts should be thinking in a reciprocal manor – not just ‘what can I get out of this?’

Let’s say your band can draw 50 people on a week night in New York. Your draw may be predominantly friends and fans at that point. Which is fine. Almost all bands start with friends and family. If your band starts booking 2 or more times per month, you’ll start to have diminishing returns. Now we book you after you’ve played a number of shows in town in a short period of time, and we put you on a good night on a good show, and almost no one comes out. You’ve benefited from the exposure but have offered nothing in return. You’ve spoiled your relationship with us. Bands should be thinking in reciprocal terms. Not only ‘what can we get out of this?’ but ‘what can we do for the club, or promoter, or the other bands on the bill for that matter?’

——————-

I will be posting the rest of  my conversation with Howie in the next few weeks.  In the meantime you can check out his management and marketing company Creative Entertainment Group.