Posts Tagged ‘touring’

I was able to ask my friend Howie Schnee the Co-Owner of Creative Entertainment Group and Co-Owner of Sullivan Hall and Sullivan Room in New York a few questions about what his job is like and what helps influence his decisions in booking bands into his clubs.  I have known Howie since the early 90s when Sullivan Hall was called the Lion’s Den.  He was in fact the first club owner to take a risk on a band I played with in college many years ago.

Howie has been responsible for building more acts on a local or regional level than any three people I know.  The Lion’s Den  (now Sullivan Hall) was one of the stepping stone clubs that most bands who wound up on Bonnaroo or  the H.O.R.D.E. tour played before becoming big regional or national acts.

Musician Coaching:

How has the process of band /artist selection changed at the clubs in the last 10-15 years both for established artists and for the audition nights or slow nights when you are trying out new local talent. (online vs offline, more or less competition for slots etc…)

Howie:

It’s changed significantly. The immediacy of the web is mind-boggling. Almost all bands post samples of their music online. The old way was for bands to make initial contact over the phone and follow up with a press kit. By the time we received that press kit, details of that initial conversation were fuzzy at best. Besides music being immediate, there are many clues online that give a good idea as to whether or not a band has their act together so to speak such as having a robust website. Also, whether or not there’s some buzz and awareness about them like having a lot of Myspace plays, Facebook friends, Twitter followers for example. I’ll occasionally do random searches to see if there’s any interesting press about the act.

Musician Coaching:

How do you prefer to be approached by an unknown artist trying to get a
show at the clubs you book? (referral, cold calling, how materials should be
presented and where i.e. Sonicbids, myspace etc)

Howie:

It’s really best for bands to include links for all of their sites they have EPKs on – MySpace, Sonicbids, Reverb Nation, etc. Just depending upon the buyer’s preference of site(s) they like to review bands on. A band should state the basics that talent buyers would like to know: where they’re from, what genre(s) they consider themselves to be in, when and where they’ve played the market before and how it went. If a band has friends, family or any roots to New York City that will insure a decent draw, that’s a good thing to mention. Also, anything noteworthy that may garner attention – album release show, TV or radio appearances, notable press, etc.

Musician Coaching:

For a new band with few or no references that you can call to get a feel
for their following – how is the best way to approach you and how often so
as to be heard but not to annoy the hell out of you?

Howie:

References aren’t necessarily important, but professionalism and a good attitude go a long way. The other day I booked an out-of-town people who drew only 20 people to a show, on a Wednesday. Their manager followed up with a great email of thanks, but also noting how he felt strongly if we gave them a chance on a weekend night, he knew they could do 50 people at minimum. Then he followed that up with something to the effect of ‘I understand if you’d like to keep us to a week night and we’ll work hard to get to a weekend night eventually.’ His non-demanding positive attitude implored me to give him a weekend show despite the smaller draw. It also helped that their music was really good.

Musician Coaching:

Describe the volume of submissions you get on a daily or weekly basis for
artist who want to play shows at Sullivan Hall and what percentage of those
actually get in the door to play?

Howie:

There are three of us that book the club so it’s hard to say exactly. I’d estimate we probably get around 20-25 submissions a day on average. Unless a band’s music or attitude is really terrible, we give most bands a shot. First time in though, it may be on a Monday or Tuesday.

Musician Coaching:

What traits in a band member or manager make you feel like this is
someone who is serious about their business and makes you want to help them
build their following (both for you and the club)

Howie:

I alluded to it earlier. Positive attitude, non-demanding, carrying themselves professionally, strong work ethic all go a long way with me. That hard work ethic is essential if a band wants to take it to the next level. Nothing should be beneath them. I love walking out of a show and seeing a musician handing out hand bills or CDs or MP3 cards promoting their band. If I see that, and its 30 degrees and snowing, no matter what they sound like, I’ll book that band.

Musician Coaching:

Describe some of the frustrations you have with they way musicians
approach you for a gig and things that people should avoid saying / doing.

Howie:

One of the most frustrating things is when you book an act, and discover afterwards they have multiple gigs lined up in town, and they’ve never bothered to mention it. I can understand a band wanting to get out there and play a lot (although I don’t feel that’s the right approach), but they should mention it during the booking process. I think acts should be more focused on the quality of shows they do versus quantity.  Acts should be thinking in a reciprocal manor – not just ‘what can I get out of this?’

Let’s say your band can draw 50 people on a week night in New York. Your draw may be predominantly friends and fans at that point. Which is fine. Almost all bands start with friends and family. If your band starts booking 2 or more times per month, you’ll start to have diminishing returns. Now we book you after you’ve played a number of shows in town in a short period of time, and we put you on a good night on a good show, and almost no one comes out. You’ve benefited from the exposure but have offered nothing in return. You’ve spoiled your relationship with us. Bands should be thinking in reciprocal terms. Not only ‘what can we get out of this?’ but ‘what can we do for the club, or promoter, or the other bands on the bill for that matter?’

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Part two of my interview with Howie is available here.  You can also check out his management and marketing company Creative Entertainment Group.

Josh Zandman is the CEO and founder of the music licensing company Song and Film.  He is also a writer, producer and a musician.  Prior to starting Song and Film Josh was signed to  A&M / Interscope records as the keyboard player of the band Burlap To Cashmere.

Music Consultant:

Josh, thanks for taking the time to speak with me today.  Before we get into what you are doing now tell me what it was like for you as a major label recording artist?

JZ:

They wanted us to basically have a grassroots following because of the genre of the music, so we toured over 300 days a year.  We were constantly on the road for five years.  Even when we got a tour bus, we were showering in truck stops.  If we were lucky enough to get one hotel room, and sometimes there were bloodstains on the sheets. We stayed in crappy places. We always would say, “We’re living the dream.” Even when we were playing for 10,000 people, it could be rough.

Music Consultant:

Many people just don’t really realize just what constant touring entails.

JZ:

The experience is and was incredible. I always say the prize is an empty box, but it’s all about the journey, especially in the music industry. There’s usually nothing to hold on to but the people you meet and the music itself – that’s what it’s about.

Music Consultant:

There aren’t a lot of artists that do 300 days per year.  Today, very few people have tour support and DIY is the rule not the exception.  Most people gig doing the weekend warrior thing with three-day weekends if they’re lucky and it seems that almost everywhere you go audiences are as jaded as they are in New York and Los Angeles.

JZ:

When we started, it wasn’t like that. We started in late 1995. The digital stuff wasn’t as popular as it was now.

Music Consultant:

It was also a very different economy.  People had some spare money too.

JZ:

Exactly. We would book ourselves initially. We started out slow. Then we got picked up by PGA when PGA was booking REM and others. Our conga player wanted to be on the road all the time, so he would say, “Put us out.” And he just booked us. When you’re playing for the Christian industry there are so many shows. It’s very supportive from the fans. There are endless numbers of shows. Of course, you’re not playing every day. Back then we were saying we shouldn’t be playing all these shows and just be doing the big ones so we could concentrate on writing and radio, which I think we’d still be together if that had been the case.

Music Consultant:

You did this for five years- what would you have done differently had you had all that experience when you started out?

JZ:

You need a leader in the band. You need somebody to make final decisions, and we didn’t have that. We had seven people all complaining, and nobody was making decisions. Also, the best thing to do is if you’re a writer in a band and living together and working together, you need to give some of that publishing to the other guys. Because otherwise in our situation, the writer was making all the money, and we never made anything except towards the end, when made a little bit. But when you’re making $20,000 per show playing for 10,000-40,000 people and not making anything because it’s going all back into tour support, you wonder why you’re doing it. You look at bands today that have been around for 20-30 years and they split the publishing. They’re all considered writers, and that’s why they’re together. They’re all making money and all happy and having fun.  I also would have made different choices regarding our management.

Music Consultant:

So the band split up- then what happened?

JZ:

I left the band and was in a crappy apartment.  I couldn’t afford rent in Jersey. I had done a demo of a song called Beautiful out in Nashville. It was just a demo, and I did it for free with a guy named Rick Elias, who has had some really big songs on albums in the Christian industry. I sat on that song for a year and didn’t do anything with it until that website Demo Diaries was up and running and popular. I e-mailed Gary there and said, “This song has a Dawson’s Creek kind of feel. Can you put it on your site?” At the time A&R execs would contact you if they liked it when you were posted on that site.  Gary asked me “Was this ever on Dawson’s Creek, and do you want it on?” When I said “Not it hasn’t” and “yes please” he told me to e-mail this girl who was the editor to the show and to say that I was recommended by him, and she said, “Thanks, I love it.”

No joke, a week later the music supervisor said, “I need a song for the closing scene in this episode.” And she said, “I just got the perfect song.” Two weeks later, this song was on one of the biggest shows on TV at the time. I was floored. I had been ready to give up on music, and then that happened. Then I tried to get publishing companies to help, but there were no companies out there like Film and Song that pushed songs to TV and film. There were only publishing companies. Nobody would push my stuff. I decided to do it myself and started Song and Film as a tips sheet like Demo Diaries to gain contacts for myself. So I would find bands I thought were awesome and put it up on the site with their contact info. I wasn’t doing it for the money. I was just trying to gain relationships with people. What happened was, in the first two  weeks I had the Vice President of Fox Music pick four bands for two pilots coming out. I didn’t know what to do, so I just told him to contact them. Within four months I became known in the music industry because I was doing something different. Putting links in e-mails to music was something nobody was doing at the time. People were excited to be able to just click and listen. That gained a lot of attention. That was seven years ago. Since then, we’ve tried different things, and it has become what it is now. During that process I also wound up playing piano for Kanye West on his first album, which was fun.    

Music Consultant:

You’ve gotten music placed on Dawson’s Creek, you’ve started Song and Film. What other victories have you had for your music and other people’s music?

JZ:

That was just the first thing that happened. During that time I also signed with Cherry Lane Publishing. So I had songs I wrote with them that were placed in movies, and I was writing with people. What happened with Song and Film was that I got more excited about other people’s music, so I never even pushed my own. We have over 300 major placements in A-List movies, from Epic Movie to movies with George Clooney, Patrick Swayze along with national and regional commercials, iPhone and iPad games, indie films, corporate CDs. We work with anything or anyone that licenses music, we’ve had great success.

Music Consultant:

When people ask me “How do I get my stuff into film and TV?”  I never have a clear cut answer except that doing so is a full time job.  What I try to explain is that when you’re calling up and say, “Hey, I’m an artist and I have three albums worth and they generally sound like this,” anybody on the phone is generally listening and thinking, “Okay, great, but I’ve got Sony on the other line and they have all of Western music. Can you hold?”  Was the idea to work with more music than just your own a strategy to build a bigger catalogue so you could have more conversation currency with these people?

JZ:

Honestly, I wasn’t even thinking that. All I was thinking of was, “One day I want to be a music supervisor, and in order to do that, I need to get music placements.” I thought that at the time, but now I realize it’s just who you know to be a music supervisor. At the time I wanted to build relationships and placements. When I would find a band, all I was going off was my passion for music. That’s it. I get very excited when I hear a new song, and it really excites me and I want to do something with it. This was the vehicle by which to do it. And that was my passion – to play stuff in TV and film. So for me it was, “I love this song and want to send it to these people.” I think it’s your passion and desire that fuel that whole process. It just took off from there. I built up relationships over the years, and everyone was saying, “Wow, these guys are sending me incredible music, and they’re nice. They’re not hard to deal with, and they are simple.”

Music Consultant:

What kind of deals do you do with artists?  Exclusive vs. Non Exclusive etc etc… ?

JZ:

We have two different deals. We opened a publishing company called Snow Jacket. It’s basically still Song and Film, but Snow Jacket is under the same umbrella. We’re only signing single song deals, and we’re doing more of a campaign-style push to break the artist, an that’s brand new.

Music Consultant:

Elaborate on campaign style.

JZ:

Campaign style is basically that Song and Film runs as a library. Usually leads come in and we say, “Yes, I have this song” and we send it. Campaign style is, “Okay, I have this song, and this band is touring, and we want to help break this artist into the music industry.” So we try to get them high-level placement, promotion, anything that can promote them like crazy by getting links on websites or spots on TV where it mentions their CD is available on iTunes. We do anything we can do to help break the artist. And we pull in our favors from all our clients to say, “Hey, we want your help in breaking this artist and want you to be part of their success as well.” That’s basically the campaign style theory. It’s more that we’re managing a song.

Music Consultant:

I was a player, but I was never much of a writer. What do you recommend in light of the fact that there are so many placement agencies that are non-exclusive, and you have to worry about people going out and signing up for 15 of these things and that pissing off supervisors because they’re getting pitched with 15 re-titled songs from 15 different people? You now have seven years worth of experience on almost every side of the film and TV placement and scoring, and you’re fortunate enough to have a publishing company doing your placement for your own material. What would you recommend for someone that wants to get songs placed?

JZ:

What I would recommend is not going with a bunch of different companies. And I tell that to artists when they sign up with us. We have a non-exclusive deal as well. We take 50% of the licensing fee, and that’s it.  If you work with multiple houses the music supervisors can say, “Who do I give this licensing fee to, because I got the same song from two different pushers?” They hate that because they lose their relationships with one of those people. So, don’t go with all these different people. Find a company that can showcase all their placements. On our site we put up all our placements because we have nothing to hide. We say, “This is what we do. We have nothing to hide. If you like it, great. If not, this is what we do.” And also, do research on the people that run the company. Google them and do tons of research because you want to be working with somebody that is enthusiastic and passionate about what you’re doing. I hear so many stories from artists that their song has been sitting in the place for so long and not doing anything.

Music Consultant:

Frankly, that’s the rule and no the exception.  Artists sign up their music with a library or five libraries and more often than not they never hear back at all.

JZ:

Yes, exactly. And that’s the problem. These people are just trying to gain a huge catalogue. It’s like a mission that you’re going to get so many songs. We only have 40 artists. We’re very selective about who we pick and what songs we pick. We have actual friendships with all the artists rather than them just being clients. They call us up for advice on other stuff, and we encourage them all the time. That’s what it should be like. It’s exciting and is supposed to be fun.

Music Consultant:

I find that when working with some of the larger catalogues, now you don’t have to work the music supervisors but you have to work the person that has your song because they forget what they own they have such a large catalogue.

JZ:

Here’s the funny thing. When I first started this, there was nobody in TV and film. Now TV and film has become really popular. Artists became aware of it and now these startup companies are just all over the place and saturating all these people. But it’s all about the relationships, and they’re learning that. They’re here, and then they’re gone, because they don’t have relationships with the supervisors.

That’s where our relationship building comes into play. After seven years, they can’t forget us because we’re on their short list. When a new movie comes out, we’re one of the few companies that are notified of the lead. All these other companies are chasing it, and we’re just getting them handed to us now, which is awesome. It takes a lot of work to get there, and it doesn’t mean we limit ourselves to just that. We go out and get new clients all the time.

Music Consultant:

I know talent and writing a great song and all that is kind of an X Factor, and it might seem a little ridiculous to reverse engineer this process, but I remember that when I was doing campaigns on the agency side, certain themes kept coming up, so everybody wanted “Here Comes the Sun” by the Beatles or “Walking on Sunshine” by Katrina and the Waves. If you had a song about sunshine, you had a shot at getting heard because of the thematic element. Are there artists or themes or things that reoccur?

JZ:

Definitely. And you said it. “Sunshine” or the word “shine.” If you put it in and make it positive and generic so it can be used in a million ways, you’re golden. It’s amazing how much they’ll get placed. And then if you do anthematic-type choruses. We’re working with a song right now called “Believe.” And the message is “you gotta believe.” It can be used in so many different things. Don’t tell a story. Stories rarely get placed. You have to fit the story they already have.

Music Consultant:

I did an interview with Bill Meadows – a supervisor with Crispin Porter, and he told me a majority of the things he placed were instrumental. Do you find that to be true as well?

JZ:

We do place instrumental stuff, but not as much with what we work on. Bill Meadows works on TV commercials, and they use instrumentals more than the stuff we work on as far as movies and TV shows where they are trying to get a specific message across and need a lyric to support that. We have a deal with MTV and place hundreds and hundreds of songs with them for artists. And they use tons of instrumentals for background because they use so much music. It’s typically more lyric based.

Music Consultant:

It’s still handy for musicians to have their instrumentals and stems handy though, correct?

JZ:

Yes. Definitely. Always have your instrumental ready and if possible the stem of the whole song.

Music Consultant:

Any other thoughts in closing or stuff we didn’t cover?

JZ:

The best advice I love to tell artists is when you’re submitting to a company to push your songs, don’t write a story about yourself in an e-mail and read the instructions on the site. I say, “Send me an mp3. If we like it, we’ll get back to you.” And I get ten mp3s in an e-mail or links to all these different places like Sound Cloud. I just delete them now because I’m too busy. An mp3 is the easiest way. Make the e-mail as short as possible. Introduce yourself and let your music speak for itself. You don’t have to try to sell me in an e-mail. A song is a song, and the song is what sells.

Music Consultant:

What do you want to hear from someone that approaches you cold?  Do you want them to give you ideas of how it should be used?  Do you need to hear about the artist’s accomplishments? What gets your attention?

JZ:

Definitely don’t say what it could be used for, because you want the person listening to it to make that decision. When I hear it, I know my clients and what I work on. Introduce yourself and mention your placements or deals or that you’re touring. Send three sentences. Don’t tell me you have 50 songs in your catalogue. That’s the worst, because I know I’m going to have to go listen to them if we work together. Just say, “Here’s an mp3” or send a direct link to your Myspace. Don’t link to your website where I have to go and click “music” and then go find it. The simpler you make it, the better it is. Just “Hi, my name is John and I’ve had a few placements on TV. Here’s a song I think you’ll like.”

Music Consultant:

Are you in fact looking for something that’s off the radar, or are you looking for someone with key performance indicators?

JZ:

It definitely makes a difference.  It is worth mentioning if you are doing something notable and not just playing boring coffee shops. If you’re touring right now, it will grab my attention, because a lot of music supervisors want to help break a band. And we get requests sometimes saying, “Is there a band from New York right now that’s doing well? We want to place them in this show.” They’ll request a certain band from a certain area. It doesn’t happen often but it does happen. It’s eye candy. Mention a cool little couple things you’re doing. It doesn’t matter, but it’s subconscious. I think, “Oh cool. This is a working musician and someone that is doing stuff.” And then when you listen to a song, that’s subconsciously in the back of your head. It’s all about the song no matter what. But if it’s a short e-mail, I know who I am contacting and how to talk to the person. I don’t have to figure out how to start the conversation.

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Learn more about Josh and Song and Film

John Wozniak, has worn many hats during his fifteen years in the music industry: As Singer/Songwriter; Record Producer; Owner of Mushroom Studios (Vancouver, BC), A&R Rep (Capitol/EMI), but he’s probably best known as the creative force behind Marcy Playground; the band that brought you the 1997 hit “Sex and Candy.”  Almost 12 years later, John continues to write and release albums with the band, and I was able to catch up with him by phone last week, as Marcy Playground’s “Leaving Wonderland 2009/10” tour found their bus rolling into Houston Texas.

This is part II of the interview with John You can find Part 1 here.  We were discussing what it was like for John when they had their first hit twelve years ago and I was just about to get more current…

Musician Coaching:  How has touring changed? What kind of tools are you using?

JW:

People think… even if you’re not selling records you can tour.  Well, it’s expensive to tour.  It’s not free, and it’s not cheap.  First of all, you need a booking agent.  A booking agent has to be good.  They have be able to get you good shows that offer high enough guarantees to pay your expenses.  They also have to know which promoters are legit, and which promoters are crooks.  Otherwise you could end up in Europe, playing your heart out and never get paid.   Don’t believe me?  Watch the recent documentary on the band ANVIL.  You also need a tour manager.  Somebody has to advance the shows with the promoters, organize the travel plans, and settle at the end of every night.  If it’s going to be your bass player, he’d better be really good, and have the patience for it, or he won’t be your bass player for very long.  So if you’re going to have a booking agent and a tour manager, portions of the money you’ll be making on the road are obviously going to be going to them. Not only that, but you have to have a bus or a van with a trailer for your equipment, money for gas, money to eat. You might have to have a hotel room or two. If you can crash at people’s houses on their couch, good for you, most people can’t.  So, the point is, touring is not cheap, and it is definitely not free.  You have to find ways to pay for your tour other than guarantees.  Sometimes there may not be a guarantee. The promoter might want to do a deal where you get a portion of the door receipts.  Well, if nobody shows up that night, because the promoter didn’t feel like spending any money to promote the show, you’re going to be shit out of luck and out of money really quickly.  Selling T-shirts is a good way to supplement tour income, as long as people buy them.  But why would anyone buy a t-shirt from an unknown band?  Who goes to a bar and buys a T-shirt from an unknown band?  Not many people.  I haven’t bought any.  My experience has been that people only buy T-shirts from bands they know.  What they will buy, however, is a CD.  So, selling CD’s on tour is critical.  If nothing else, you have to get your music out there.  You should also be gathering names for your mailing list.  It’s easy to set up a table with cards on it that people can fill out.  If you have somebody’s email address, Facebook page, MySpace page, etc… you can keep them informed about what you’re doing.

So starting out, touring is not a good way to make money, or to get heard.  If nobody knows who you are, there’s no impetus for them to come out and hear you play.  So you almost have to get your music out for free on the Internet just so that people care.  You can’t be selling a record if nobody has any idea who you are, and no idea of what they’re getting themselves into. It’s like trying to pick a prize behind a curtain where you have no idea what it is.  Imagine trying to pay for that prize behind the curtain.  Nobody’s gonna do that!

MusicianCoaching:

And you’re assuming the odds are it’s a prize. With what I know about music, most of it I don’t like.

JW:

Actually, I’m with you.  I’m assuming it’s not a prize.

I think the way to do it in this day and age, if you’re going to do it at all, is to network.  You have to get into a market, a place, a city where there’s a music scene and where people’s attention is focused on that music scene.  Doing it from Kansas City, MO isn’t going to happen for you… just like doing it from Olympia WA wasn’t going to happen for me.  You would be the luckiest band in the world if you make it out of some city in the Midwest that is not Chicago or Minneapolis.  It’s almost impossible to do it.  So move to Minneapolis, or Chicago, or New York, or LA.  Move to a music hub.  Seattle’s a poor place to do it at this point I believe.  People are looking at Portland a bit these days, because there is a good music scene there.  Atlanta, Nashville — there are a couple places where it makes sense.  But you need to go to one of those places.  Get involved in the music scene there, go see bands, introduce yourself to other musicians you like and find a community that accepts you.  In that community, you can support each other. There’s always that guy with a ProTools rig in his garage with some killer gear that he spent his life collecting, that would be willing to record you for a small piece of the back end (2 or 3 points)… or just for fun.  If you get a deal out of the demo he makes, you give him an override on the record.

One thing I want to be really clear on is, you have to be very careful about who you shack up with in business deals in the beginning.  There are a lot of bottom-feeders out there.  If you’re a young local artist that starts to show some real talent and potential in your area, you will find that there is no shortage of unscrupulous people who call themselves “Managers”, or call themselves “Producers.”  Pond scum like that will likely weasel up to you and try to take a piece of your future.  You need to be cautious and avoid those people.  Do your research. Get books out of the library, or go to your local book store.  Amazon is a really amazing place for buying used books for a dollar.  There’s no lack of information out there on the business of music.  Once you have that side of things figured out, and you understand the difference between a mechanical royalty and an artist royalty, you can better make decisions about your career.  And then, when someone offers you a deal, you’ll be able to tell if that person is for real… or a weasel.

Another thing young bands have to be aware of these days is getting stuck in a “dead deal.”  Let’s say you sign your five-album deal, two firm plus three options, and a month later that company no longer exists, you’re going to be kicking yourself while your contract is in probate for the next six months to two years, wondering why you didn’t research the company beforehand.  This happens a lot.  Bands get stuck on labels that don’t exist anymore.  Unfortunately, somebody still owns the assets of that dead label, which includes the exclusive rights to your band’s recordings.  In this day and age, that scenario plays out more and more.  Labels are being sucked into other labels, others are being closed.  It’s very common.  Google is an amazing resource, and you can find out a lot about what’s happening at certain record labels, or their parent companies, just by Googling news and information on them.  I personally think it’s worth doing a little Google research before doing business with anyone.

MusicianCoaching:

What tools are you using for Marcy Playground that have come around recently?

JW:

The most important thing we’ve discovered is the same thing everyone else has discovered. Social networking sites work. You can really start to develop a fan base through social networking:  Myspace; Facebook; YouTube. YouTube is probably the most under-utilized of them all.  As much as people like to listen to music, they’d rather see a video and music at the same time.  On your website, you can always take the YouTube code and embed videos into your webpage … or your Myspace or Facebook pages. You should get yourself one of those $120 Flip video cameras and shoot yourself playing songs, or getting out there and goofing off to your music. You should develop a profile on YouTube where you can have a big presence. You can make them funny too, so they’ll have a better chance of becoming viral. The band “OK Go” put up that famous video of them dancing on treadmills, and all of a sudden, they have millions of hits for a video that they shot themselves.  They came up with a really good idea… four guys dancing on treadmills.  Next thing you know, the MTV Video Music Awards roll around and there’s OK Go doing the treadmill dance, onstage.  Who had heard of OK Go before that?  Not many people.  Now that video has around 49 Million hits.

Musician Coaching:

What would you do differently having lived through this experience as a new artist?

JW:

Nowadays I’d network like crazy, but still keep my core organization small and smart. That’s my philosophy on it.  I think the fewer personalities involved in a creative endeavor, and the smarter they are, the better.  There are a few large organizations in management that do very well for their clients, but sometimes all you need is one really aggressive, intelligent, self-motivated individual out there.  That’s what we had in Chris Blake at the time when “Sex and Candy” broke.  He was just one guy with a few key clients–  Toad the Wet Sprocket, The Odds, and Marcy Playground – but he was super motivated and really smart, and we were able to make a lot of good decisions, and reap the rewards of his wisdom whenever he was around.

Aside from that, I would move to a big city, go out every night and see live local music, get involved with other musicians and collaborate a lot, write with other songwriters, be as social of an animal as I could possibly be, and meet everybody in that scene.  I’d probably try to avoid the “open-mic night” crowd, since my experience has been that that tends to be a pretty “dead-end” scene – Find real musicians, including a real drummer, and get a real gig!  –  I would work on my song craft and make as many recordings as humanly possible, shooting for the best sounding thing I could possibly get.  I’d bang down the door of the local radio station and get them to spin it on one of their “Featured Local Artist” segments.  Most big stations have a segment in their programing like that, where they match your song up against another local band’s.  I’ve seen those contests work for artists.  In fact I recorded a band in Vancouver called Stabilo that had won one of those.  Their demo for a song called “Everybody” was getting some spins on 99.3 CFOX in Vancouver.  I owned a major recording studio there for over 7 years, called Mushroom Studios, so I was in town on business when I heard their song come on the radio in my car.  I was surprised that it was a local band because it sounded like a hit to me.  Shortly thereafter I went to see them play at a club on Granville Street called The Royal.  There were 10 people in the audience, but the band was great.  So I went up to them afterwards, introduced myself, and invited them to come to the studio the next day to discuss their career plans.  We all hit it off, so I did a few recordings with the guys, pitched them to some labels, and did my part to help them become a national act in Canada.  They’ve gone on to do quite well.  If they hadn’t entered that CFOX local contest… who knows what would have happened.  That sort of local success becomes incredibly valuable, because it gives you something tangible you can build upon and, hopefully, translate into something bigger.  If you’re in an urban market, and your song is being played for millions of people, so much the better.

I’d get a band together and play local shows without spreading ourselves too thin.  Instead of hitting the road and wasting a lot of time and money touring… I’d try to get a residency at one of the local bars or clubs in town, and play there every Tuesday or Thursday night and start to develop a following.  If I knew of a bar that had one slow night a week… I’d ask the owner if they wouldn’t mind having my band play for free, and then I’d bring all my friends out.  I’d keep a mailing list and inform the people who signed up for it of all my news and events.  And, of course, I’d use the internet to socially network like crazy.

You just have to get involved, meet people, have new experiences and learn.  Make yourself an expert on everything and be social.   Don’t sit in your parents’ basement smoking pot, wondering when the A&R guy from Capitol is going to knock on your door and come down the stairs to listen to your brilliant music.  It’s not going to happen.

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Check out what John is up to on the Marcy Playground Website.

I was fortunate enough to sit down with my friend Reverend Dave Ciancio from Yeah! Management.  Dave was one of the founders of the hard rock indie promotion, marketing and management firm The Syndicate and recently has started  Yeah! Management.  I have been fortunate enough to know Dave for a long time and have watched him help the careers of dozens of hard rock bands.

Musician Coaching:

Tell me about Yeah! Management!

DC:

I run Yeah! Management, an organization within Artist Arena. Artist Arena is a company that handles VIP Fan Clubs and tickets. So for example if the Rolling Stones go on tour, you can by a seat on the stage and a drink with Mick Jagger for $10,000. We don’t do the Rolling Stones, but that’s the concept.  What’s cool about it is that we have access to all the people that Artist Arena has access to, whether that would be Green Day’s manager or the people at Warner Music Group or the Agency Group people. So, it becomes beneficial for our own artists to learn and watch and piggyback onto what is happening in the larger company.

Musician Coaching:

So you’re doing primarily hard rock and metal management, like Poison the Well and Shadows Fall. What are the other stand-outs?

DC: Shadows Fall is our flagship band, and I’ve been working with them since they were unsigned. They are kind of my band of brothers. They bring in a lot of attention from metal bands. A lot of our roster is hard rock, but we have a couple pop bands like TAT and VersaEmerge. We’re all over the place as long as it’s rock and roll.

Musician Coaching:

What gets your attention as a manager business wise?

DC:

From my last couple years at The Syndicate I was on a signing freeze. I wasn’t looking for anything new. I really believed in our roster and felt really committed and busy and had enough going on that I didn’t see a need to expand the roster. When we started the new company, I realized that without having to be in charge of doing all the marketing stuff I definitely had time to bring on more. With bringing on new employees and being in a new situation, I realized we had room for new bands. It became about relearning a process I hadn’t done in a few years – looking for young talent. The more popular your roster gets or the more successful a band you manage gets, the more bands that come to you. I couldn’t pick out a particular attribute that really shines, but in the end it comes down to, “Do I have an appreciation for the songwriting? Do I like the band members as people? Are they business savvy or willing to be business savvy?” And then there’s that Superstar X Factor – “What makes this band stand out? Is it the actual players in the band, the vocalist, or are they pretty? Do they own some other company or do something else that might help jumpstart their career, like a merch company or are they a skater?” It’s any number of things, but my criteria has gone up, and I’m a lot less willing to jump on things because I like them. I’ve found many times in the past that just because you like a band doesn’t mean you should work with them, and sometimes it’s better to just be a fan or help people out. Criteria wise? Be awesome.

Musician Coaching:

The online thing has changed a lot, and you’ve spent a lot of time working on marketing with bands. Are there things out there you think all bands should be doing to promote their careers that are low- or no-cost?

DC:

Everybody needs to be on Twitter and Facebook and Myspace. If you’re not there, what are you doing? You need to know how people are looking for something or how they are looking for music. Maybe it’s reading a magazine or clicking on YouTube all day or looking on Facebook, or maybe a friend has to tell someone about it. You never know how someone is going to find something, so you have to be everywhere. If a person likes listening to music on Pure Volume, be on Pure Volume. If a person likes listening to music on iLike, be on iLike. If people are on a Twitter frenzy, then be on Twitter and have something interesting to say. You have to be where the people are, and that’s the foundation. Once you’re there, you can market yourself; but if you’re not online, what’s the point?

Musician Coaching:

I notice that you do a lot of social networking yourself. Do you have any suggestions for expanding your reach?

DC: The standard answer applies – be interesting. Find something you like to talk about or are an expert on, or something you think you can use to draw attention to yourself. For example, I like to talk about burgers, so I started a burger Web site. Aaron from Underoath is a big foodie, and people are starting to know him because of the food. It takes him out of being just an artist, or the drummer in the band or the singer in a band; he’s now a food guy. So there’s another reason for people to pay attention. I think one of the problems with marketing today, especially for bands is that is becomes very unilateral – “Talk about the music.” People who are into music are into lifestyle. I think if you’re going to be on Twitter and Facebook and bother to have a Tumblr blog, you need to realize that the audience you have probably isn’t just interested in music. If you can bring something else to the table, bring it. Social networking is all about tools, and you have to know how to use them. There are all kinds of Twitter applications that can help you find new people or stay on top of your account. I check my Twitter karma once a week for my marketing stuff – Am I following all the people that are following me? Am I following too many people that don’t matter? In the Twitter world this is looked at as spam. It’s really about knowing how to use the tools.

Musician Coaching: Talk to me more about aspiring artists and what they should be doing to maintain relationships with their fan base?

DC: There’s nothing more important than engaging a fan base. If people have found their way to you, you have to assume it’s not just about music. I can’t tell you how many times I listened to Pantera as a kid, and all they did was talk about smoking pot. I liked smoking pot as a kid, so that appealed to me. I’m not saying every band should go on their website and start talking about pot, but you need to find what you do and figure it out and use it. It all comes back to be interesting and find out how to network. As far as generating mailing lists, it’s just natural. If you’re going to have a Myspace page, get a Mozes account, and if you’re going to have a Mozes account, get a Reverb Nation account. You can collect e-mails and phone numbers. For young bands, I’m a big fan of Ning and Drupal Sites. You can create your own Myspace and social network. We did this with Shadows Fall, and had a lot of success. We had a couple thousand people and called it a fan club, and told people to sign up for free. To use that appropriately, I can send people on there a message with the click of a button that says, “Tickets for our new tour are on sale today. We’re going to give you people 24-hour access before the public.” Things like that are really good.

Musician Coaching:

Being a hard rock band or a metal band, the road has to be a part of your life. What was the process of building a touring base like?

DC:

It’s really hard, especially in modern times and the modern economy. There’s no money out there.  You have to give to get. When I first started in the music business and I wanted to manage bands, there was certainly not enough money on the table to do what I wanted full time, so I had to DJ at a club on Tuesday nights just to make the rent. It’s a matter of how much you’re willing to sacrifice. If you’re a young band and you want to build a touring base, get on the road and figure out how to stay on the road and maximize on the road. Keep costs down.

Musician Coaching:

Are there any specific tricks or common mistakes you see when people overspend?

DC: I think the most common one I see is that bands will spend a significant amount of time on the road getting paid $100 per night, scraping nickels together to get to the next gig and just pulling into town with three drops of gas left in the tank, and the minute they see a little bit of success, it becomes a game of luxury – “Now we want three guitar techs and two buses.” The magic disappears at some point. Not everybody can get up and stay up. And then they get accustomed to it and can’t adjust their business to fit economies of scale. The biggest mistake I see is getting a taste of it and not realizing you may not see it again. It’s better to get a taste of it and then try to keep as many of those methods of saving money with you so you keep your money.

Musician Coaching:

Do you think it’s necessary for most artists to discuss something other than their music?

DC:

It depends. I love to look at a band like Pantera. For years all they were was “F**king Pantera,” and they didn’t need anything else. Then the DVD’s came out and we saw them backstage and partying and playing these massive shows and that took it to the next level.  That’s how they got their personality. Even if you’re Dream Theater, and you’re clearly a musicians’-based band, play that up. They talk about drum lessons and guitar lessons and tablatures. Maybe they’re not talking about the new single on the record, but they are still talking about something else and appealing to the audience. I think it’s important to talk about something more than the songs and the tour and the record. What else are you doing that makes you who you are?

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You can check out Dave’s quest for Burgers and of course his music management company at Burger Conquest and Yeah! Management